Would you consider purchasing 10,000USD speakers from an internet direct company?

[ryanosaur]

Let’s make all speakers ACTIVE, but give people the option of using EXTERNAL amps and crossovers.

This is the way.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think it is easy to fall into a system of Powered Active Speakers, and this is absolutely reasonable for many people. Having profiles programmed into a DSP Amp that will cover most use cases is a worthwhile step in the right direction.
The flipside is going to be a Non-Powered Speaker requiring external DSP and Amps (though I suppose you could have Amps built in, that seems somewhat defeating without the DSP included ). This is beyond the entry level skill set, or even probably 85% of most individuals to set up. The Value proposition here is minimal as you have to be an absolute committed DORK to go for this... or be able to pay someone to set your system up for you.

That said, the first option is definitely a huge boon to the masses. Especially if the Speakers in question can still be tweaked through additional room correction prior to the signal being sent to the Active DSP/Amp.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

For now at least, our approach is to keep this pretty simple. You have digital crossovers, and you have a built-in power amp (or actually three). This means you can throw away your power amp if you have one, but the rest of the system can stay as is, and you connect to the speakers like you would a power amp, typically with RCA or XLR. This makes the setup pretty simple and future proof, and you don't need any particular skill or technical understanding to set it up.

If you purchase dual subs you can even use XLR through from the speakers. This means you can get a perfectly integrated subwoofer setup even if you were to have a completely traditional 2 channel system with just single preouts and no support for highpass or anything, since it's all handled in the speakers / subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This means you can throw away your power amp if you have one,

That’s a big ask for audiophiles to get rid of their Parasound Halo, Anthem, ATI, Bryston, McIntosh, and Mark Levinson amps for some little plate amps.

Try convincing @TLS Guy to get rid of his precious amps that he raves about.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

That’s a big ask for audiophiles to get rid of their Parasound Halo, Anthem, ATI, Bryston, McIntosh, and Mark Levinson amps for some little plate amps.

Try convincing @TLS Guy to get rid of his precious amps that he raves about.

The "little plate amps" are Hypex amps with individual amplifiers for each driver (so tri-amped). Objectively they're probably both better and more powerful than most of what people have.

Subjectively I understand that the joy of ownership and perceived value of the aforementioned power amps are high. But they can still enjoy audiophile preamps and sources and DACs and whatnot if they like!

 

[TLS Guy]

That’s a big ask for audiophiles to get rid of their Parasound Halo, Anthem, ATI, Bryston, McIntosh, and Mark Levinson amps for some little plate amps.

Try convincing @TLS Guy to get rid of his precious amps that he raves about.

The Quad 909 are great amps. But they come from an earlier time. If those amps reached the end of the road, I would use class D amps in a heart beat. If I was designing my set up now, and not 2004, nearly twenty years ago, the amps and crossovers would be in the speakers. It would make for a much neater installation.

Times and technologies change, and we have to be informed has to how to take advantage of progress. My stack of 9 two channel power amps, is not very practical for most installations, but active speakers are.

 

[Kingnoob]

Great. One box solution. Sounds familiar. Cram everything inside the speaker - Ethernet, WiFi, Streaming, Netflix, Amazon Prime, Internet Radio, Tuner, HDMI, Amps (3 amps for 3-way speaker), Preamp, EQ, Room Correction, DSP, 12v trigger.

Am I missing anything else they can cram in there?

Instead of “AVR”, they’ll call them “SPR” for Speaker-Receiver.

And then when one of those many internal parts become defective, people can just ship that 100 lbs speaker to the manufacturer.

Yep the more features you cram into a device the higher the odds it goes bad , sadly basic is a rarity in the Audio world . I had an avr die this year that was barely used , and yet one I use daily is going strong.
so what-percentage of electronic are lemons and then which last far longer .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep the more features you cram into a device the higher the odds it goes bad , sadly basic is a rarity in the Audio world . I had an avr die this year that was barely used , and yet one I use daily is going strong.
so what-percentage of electronic are lemons and then which last far longer .

All electronics have a higher risk of failing than speakers and subs that don’t have any electronics inside of them.

It only takes you ONE failure for you to get angry and not want to take another risk. But until that happens to you, it’s all peaches.

 

[TLS Guy]

All electronics have a higher risk of failing than speakers and subs that don’t have any electronics inside of them.

It only takes you ONE failure for you to get angry and not want to take another risk. But until that happens to you, it’s all peaches.

Yes, but you have to consider the whole system risk. A receiver has a far higher chance of blowing up than active speakers. Speakers are no use with a blown receiver.
Current multi channel receivers are an absolute abomination, and absolutely condemned to be the first point of failure.,

 

[mono-bloc]

I think at the end of the day it comes down to price paid. While many will scoff at the higher priced products, it really comes down to what your prepared to spend. Your average AVR really is rubbish, They cram all sorts of "add" on's and fail to build a power supply, that is capable of handing the load. Then to add insult to injury they bring out a new model every 12 months or so. This statement is very true, I quote "the more features you cram into a device the higher the odds it goes bad, " The current trend of digital Class "D" amp's is a prime example of this. Cheaply produced Chinese modules that are sweeping the low end buying public. Yet quality Class "D" products the like of Mola Mola and Bel Canto, are passed up in favor of the much lower priced product, The saying "Pay Peanuts, Get monkey's " is true. I have considered Powered Active Speakers, and have given the Meridian range a great deal of thought. But it would mean a complete re-design of my systems and scrapping 3 systems of mono bloc amplification. Then in an attempt to justify, the use of Hypex we read , the following statement. Are people really that gulable to believe that some cheap Chinese Class D, is better then an established class A/B amp. Or a European high priced class D..amp I think not. QUOTE="Sigberg Audio, post: 1591892, member: 92130"] The "little plate amps" are Hypex amps with individual amplifiers for each driver (so tri-amped). Objectively they're probably both better and more powerful than most of what people have. [/QUOTE] Keep telling yourself that, Then visit an Audio Fair, in your part of the world, and count the number of cheap chinese class "D" products on display compared to the established brands of amplification. Try posting your thoughts on an established Audio forum, and consider the reply's . Whats Best Forum would be a good start.

 

[mono-bloc]

A receiver has a far higher chance of blowing up than active speakers. Speakers are no use with a blown receiver.
Current multi channel receivers are an absolute abomination, and absolutely condemned to be the first point of failure.,

If your stupid enough to buy an AVR in the first place you deserve all you get

 

[Kingnoob]

Yes, but you have to consider the whole system risk. A receiver has a far higher chance of blowing up than active speakers. Speakers are no use with a blown receiver.
Current multi channel receivers are an absolute abomination, and absolutely condemned to be the first point of failure.,

Why are todays avrs so fragile I had a 2016 model one barely used just die for no reason never over heated nothing no signs of failure just poof won’t stay turned on dead. Cost more to fix then it’s worth I bet .

All electronics have a higher risk of failing than speakers and subs that don’t have any electronics inside of them.

It only takes you ONE failure for you to get angry and not want to take another risk. But until that happens to you, it’s all peaches.

yes and the receivers seem much more likely to fail then sub plate amps and stuff , I’m one bad day away from not having a receiver if it randomly just dies for zero reason. Out of 4 subs and 5 plate amps I’ve only had 1 fail.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but you have to consider the whole system risk. A receiver has a far higher chance of blowing up than active speakers. Speakers are no use with a blown receiver.
Current multi channel receivers are an absolute abomination, and absolutely condemned to be the first point of failure.,

We’re not talking about promoting AVRs. Yes, AVRs, especially ones with a lot of internal electronics, have a higher risk of failure.

We are talking about how digital electronics in general are more unreliable than simple analog speakers.

When you stuff the speaker with 3 amps, you’re increasing the risk of failure.

Active speakers are fine. Just use external electronics plus the simple analog active speaker without internal XO, amps, DSP, EQ, WiFi, Streamer, Ethernet cards.

 

[TLS Guy]

We’re not talking about promoting AVRs. Yes, AVRs, especially ones with a lot of internal electronics, have a higher risk of failure.

We are talking about how digital electronics in general are more unreliable than simple analog speakers.

When you stuff the speaker with 3 amps, you’re increasing the risk of failure.

Active speakers are fine. Just use external electronics plus the simple analog active speaker without internal XO, amps, DSP, EQ, WiFi, Streamer, Ethernet cards.

Your problem is that you are a "rigid thinker." Yes, I know the world is full of them, but all of you are a problem.

This is NOT about replacing a passive crossover with an active one.

Active crossovers are truly liberating. Why you would want to have the electronics external and two are three speaker leads to each speaker is beyond me. How awkward is that?

I suppose part of the answer is due to you never having designed a speaker. Passive analog crossovers are massively constraining. Just one issue, is that you have to search and search for drivers that can actually be crossed over with a passive crossover. Just one aspect, and there are a myriad of others, is that the woofer can NOT be more sensitive than any of the other drivers. There are numerous other considerations. With active crossovers, you can match pretty much any driver you select. That will make way for fewer better drivers.

I don't know why you think that two or three class D amp, plus an electronic crossover and power supply is going to take up such a huge amount of space in a speaker. It won't, and certainly would not approach anything like being "crammed in".

I have thought about this and I know how I would go about it.

I would have a plug in box on the back of the speaker. I would have amp modules, power supply modules and crossover/DSP modules. These would be user replaceable in minutes. I would have them plug in and out, without opening the speaker, and have them locked in with one screw.

So connections would have these options, XLR, RCA, analog and digital and optical. Once standards are developed, Ethernet. I suspect it won't be too far away that only an Internet cable will be required, and it could be Wi-Fi Internet. Then the only connection will be an AC cord.

At the moment AVPs cost more than receivers, and that is because of confounded marketer types again.

The receiver can't go soon enough, it is way passed its sell by date. Now an AVP becomes a small neat device, and as time goes by morphs into you mobile phone.

Before that the AVP which is no longer an AVR without power amps becomes a far less expensive device, which it should be any way. There are NO power amps, and the power supply becomes a tenth and probably less of the size. The power transformers in my AVPs are way over sized for the power expenditure, because the AVP is based on dumb receiver technology.

This move has the potential to massively reduce costs, improve sound quality enormously, and make for far neater installations, sending WAF though the roof.
What is not to like?

The first step is to wage war on "rigid thinkers" and give them all severance slips, or in this day an age, a text or Email. However you do it, dump them.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I think at the end of the day it comes down to price paid. While many will scoff at the higher priced products, it really comes down to what your prepared to spend. Your average AVR really is rubbish, They cram all sorts of "add" on's and fail to build a power supply, that is capable of handing the load. Then to add insult to injury they bring out a new model every 12 months or so. This statement is very true, I quote "the more features you cram into a device the higher the odds it goes bad, " The current trend of digital Class "D" amp's is a prime example of this. Cheaply produced Chinese modules that are sweeping the low end buying public. Yet quality Class "D" products the like of Mola Mola and Bel Canto, are passed up in favor of the much lower priced product, The saying "Pay Peanuts, Get monkey's " is true. I have considered Powered Active Speakers, and have given the Meridian range a great deal of thought. But it would mean a complete re-design of my systems and scrapping 3 systems of mono bloc amplification. Then in an attempt to justify, the use of Hypex we read , the following statement. Are people really that gulable to believe that some cheap Chinese Class D, is better then an established class A/B amp. Or a European high priced class D..amp I think not. QUOTE="Sigberg Audio, post: 1591892, member: 92130"] The "little plate amps" are Hypex amps with individual amplifiers for each driver (so tri-amped). Objectively they're probably both better and more powerful than most of what people have.

Keep telling yourself that, Then visit an Audio Fair, in your part of the world, and count the number of cheap chinese class "D" products on display compared to the established brands of amplification. Try posting your thoughts on an established Audio forum, and consider the reply's . Whats Best Forum would be a good start.

[/QUOTE]

Well Hypex is not Chinese and not cheap (at least not in the class D space), so not sure how it's relevant. And objectively they ARE better (load independent, lower distortion, more efficient) than almost every AB design out there. What they have to say about this at What's best forum doesn't really change that fact.

But I understand that facts alone don't win the fight, as I said in the reply you quoted (just not that part), I completely understand those who cherish their large, expensive AB amps - and that they won't readily part with them to move over to a system with active speakers. So the target audience for a while will be the "early adopters" who are curious about new designs and new technology.

What's interesting about the point of expensive AB amplifiers is that it sort of takes away the argument about active speakers like ours being expensive. Because if the alternative is to use the same money to buy passive speakers, and then add the cost of what you'd typically pay for a high capacity power amp from the aforementioned brands, you're not left with much money for the speakers..

Side note: As mentioned earlier, we also do not cram our speakers with lots of technology and features, we do the opposite precisely to keep it as simple and future proof as possible.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your problem is that you are a "rigid thinker." Yes, I know the world is full of them, but all of you are a problem.

This is NOT about replacing a passive crossover with an active one.

Active crossovers are truly liberating. Why you would want to have the electronics external and two are three speaker leads to each speaker is beyond me. How awkward is that?

I suppose part of the answer is due to you never having designed a speaker. Passive analog crossovers are massively constraining. Just one issue, is that you have to search and search for drivers that can actually be crossed over with a passive crossover. Just one aspect, and there are a myriad of others, is that the woofer can NOT be more sensitive than any of the other drivers. There are numerous other considerations. With active crossovers, you can match pretty much any driver you select. That will make way for fewer better drivers.

I don't know why you think that two or three class D amp, plus an electronic crossover and power supply is going to take up such a huge amount of space in a speaker. It won't, and certainly would not approach anything like being "crammed in".

I have thought about this and I know how I would go about it.

I would have a plug in box on the back of the speaker. I would have amp modules, power supply modules and crossover/DSP modules. These would be user replaceable in minutes. I would have them plug in and out, without opening the speaker, and have them locked in with one screw.

So connections would have these options, XLR, RCA, analog and digital and optical. Once standards are developed, Ethernet. I suspect it won't be too far away that only an Internet cable will be required, and it could be Wi-Fi Internet. Then the only connection will be an AC cord.

At the moment AVPs cost more than receivers, and that is because of confounded marketer types again.

The receiver can't go soon enough, it is way passed its sell by date. Now an AVP becomes a small neat device, and as time goes by morphs into you mobile phone.

Before that the AVP which is no longer an AVR without power amps becomes a far less expensive device, which it should be any way. There are NO power amps, and the power supply becomes a tenth and probably less of the size. The power transformers in my AVPs are way over sized for the power expenditure, because the AVP is based on dumb receiver technology.

This move has the potential to massively reduce costs, improve sound quality enormously, and make for far neater installations, sending WAF though the roof.
What is not to like?

The first step is to wage war on "rigid thinkers" and give them all severance slips, or in this day an age, a text or Email. However you do it, dump them.

I used to own the awesome Linkwitz Orion. There was only ONE CABLE going from the amp to the speaker, even though each tower was powered by four channels of awesome ATI amps. The late Siegfried Linkwitz (RIP) was TRULY a great thinker and speaker designer and electrical engineer. He didn’t just built some speakers inside his garage and try to convince everyone that he was a good speaker designer like you. He built speakers for many people across the world. He was not rigid minded like you, trying to convince everyone that you HAVE TO put all these things inside the speakers and not giving people the freedom to choose their own amps if they wanted to.

Learn from the great Siegfried Linkwitz - external amps, external XO/DSP/EQ, ONE CABLE connecting the amps to each FULL-RANGE tower.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Would I consider buying $10,000 speakers (or other) from an online company?

I think there are several things that I would need to take into account.

I don't think first is the brand name or necessarily their reputation. But, I think most important would be in-nation support. I read FAR too much information about people who buy product from overseas, then are shocked when they have to ship it back to the originating country, on their own dime, when it has an issue. I think this is especially the case for speakers, and moreso for active speakers.

Where would I need to send them if I had an issue? If I didn't like them in my setup, where would they need to be returned to, and would that return expense be out of my pocket?

I would say that the second thing would be that I would expect a reasonable return policy on the product. If I can't audition them in person, then I need to audition them in my home. If they aren't to my satisfaction, then I certainly don't want to be stuck with them in my home forever. My intent would be to treat the product fairly, but I also expect a balance.

From there, the third thing would be the reputation of the company itself. If they are known for high quality parts and products, then that would pretty much make it tough direction to go. I mean, if the first and second criteria is met, then I want to ensure that I'm dealing with a fair and honest company. If there are complaints of product failures, or of bad build quality, then obviously I'm not buying anything. But, if the company is well regarded, which it sounds like is the case, then it helps to make up my mind.

I think this is a tough one for a non-US based company that doesn't have a footprint in the USA at all. I'm not sure how much product is sold in the USA, or how much demand there would be, but that's likely where my direction would be first. To establish a foothold for a service partner in the USA, and a store/showroom that could support my overseas product in the USA. Even if it's a limited store with only a few locations. Just having a place where residents could return a product to without it being international shipping would be a huge plus. It may offer some the ability to hear them in person as well, which is great for them, but it allows for in-country service and returns which is absolutely huge.

 

[cpp]

Speakers are no use with a blown receiver.

And powered speaker are of no use to your system with it dies.

 

[highfigh]

I suspect initially speaker connections will be via balanced low impedance cable. Long runs are possible and no problem. RCA cables would only be OK for short runs. I suspect that we will quickly move on to speaker connections via Ethernet cable or Wi-Fi.

My reply was to AccuDefTechGuy's comment.

 

[highfigh]

Well, then we are in agreement.

Let’s make all speakers ACTIVE, but give people the option of using EXTERNAL amps and crossovers.

You think the manufacturers will make two versions of each speaker?