Denon x4800h vs Marantz Cinema 50

[Cappie]

Hello everyone.
There have been numerous posts comparing the Cinema 50 to the Denon x3800h. For good reason as they share similar components and features and are both made in Vietnam.
I would like to look at things from a budget perspective. Both the Cinema 50 and the X4800h are priced the same. Using that as the measurement of comparison, which unit is better and why? It would be great to hear from someone who has heard them side by side after room correction. To me, the years long analogy that Denon is brighter and more detailed making it better suited for home theater where as the Marantz is warmer with a wider sound stage, making more suitable for music enthusiasts completely goes out the window if you properly calibrate Audyssey MultEQ XT using the app to tweak the curves/filters to get the sound you want. Theoretically, you should be able to make them sound almost exactly the same. So I can't help but wonder, looks and marketing aside, that with the X4800h being made in Japan utilizing better components and having more options and features, would it not be the superior choice based on price and non biased common sense?
This is a question, not an attack against Marantz or fans thereof. I much prefer the looks and prestige of having the Marantz, but it just seems to me that if you properly utilize Audyssey correction, wouldn't the Denon x4800h be the obvious better choice?
Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Trebdp83]

There are a few differences around back to consider depending on the kinds of devices that may be connected to the receiver.

Denon AVR-X4800H vs Marantz Cinema 50: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Denon AVR-X4800H and Marantz Cinema 50. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

 

[PENG]

Hello everyone.
There have been numerous posts comparing the Cinema 50 to the Denon x3800h. For good reason as they share similar components and features and are both made in Vietnam.
I would like to look at things from a budget perspective. Both the Cinema 50 and the X4800h are priced the same. Using that as the measurement of comparison, which unit is better and why? It would be great to hear from someone who has heard them side by side after room correction. To me, the years long analogy that Denon is brighter and more detailed making it better suited for home theater where as the Marantz is warmer with a wider sound stage, making more suitable for music enthusiasts completely goes out the window if you properly calibrate Audyssey MultEQ XT using the app to tweak the curves/filters to get the sound you want. Theoretically, you should be able to make them sound almost exactly the same. So I can't help but wonder, looks and marketing aside, that with the X4800h being made in Japan utilizing better components and having more options and features, would it not be the superior choice based on price and non biased common sense?
This is a question, not an attack against Marantz or fans thereof. I much prefer the looks and prestige of having the Marantz, but it just seems to me that if you properly utilize Audyssey correction, wouldn't the Denon x4800h be the obvious better choice?
Thanks for your thoughts.

You have to pay more for the HDAMs in the Marantz, all else being equal. Also, Denon sells a lot more units so likely benefit more in terms of lower production cost. If look is okay for you, the 4800 is a better value. The bright vs warm thing is not real.

Have you watch the following video? It has information that you won't find in the North American Denon/Marantz websites or other 3rd party youtube videos, highly recommended:

Introducing the brand new Denon AVC-X4800H. - YouTube

Introducing the all new Marantz Cinema Series - YouTube

 

[lovinthehd]

They are far more similar than different, that whole marantz is warmer nonsense is just that. They both have XT32 fwiw.

 

[Cappie]

There are a few differences around back to consider depending on the kinds of devices that may be connected to the receiver.

Denon AVR-X4800H vs Marantz Cinema 50: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Denon AVR-X4800H and Marantz Cinema 50. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

Thanks for your response. I have seen this comparison. So which matters more to what you can or can't hear, HDAM or AL32 Processing Multichannel?

 

[Cappie]

You have to pay more for the HDAMs in the Marantz, all else being equal. Also, Denon sells a lot more units so likely benefit more in terms of lower production cost. If look is okay for you, the 4800 is a better value. The bright vs warm thing is not real.

Have you watch the following video? It has information that you won't find in the North American Denon/Marantz websites or other 3rd party youtube videos, highly recommended:

Introducing the brand new Denon AVC-X4800H. - YouTube

Introducing the all new Marantz Cinema Series - YouTube

Thanks for your input. Yes, I have watched these and every other video and written article to date. Currently, there isn't any side by side direct comparison. What does HDAM have over AL32 Processing Multichannel and some superior components in the 4800? I like the looks of the Marantz. But, I want my money to get me the best performance...if there is any perceivable differences. Thanks again.

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't get hung up on the AL32 vs HDAM thing, it's largely marketing. I have avrs with both AL24 and AL32 and there is no obvious difference fwiw. The Denons tend to be better values...plus look better without the porthole thing IMO.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There have been numerous posts comparing the Cinema 50 to the Denon x3800h. For good reason as they share similar components and features and are both made in Vietnam.

The X4800, x6700, x8500, A1, Marantz Cinema 40 and 40n are made in JAPAN.

The x3800 and Cinema 50 are made in Vietnam.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your input. Yes, I have watched these and every other video and written article to date. Currently, there isn't any side by side direct comparison. What does HDAM have over AL32 Processing Multichannel and some superior components in the 4800? I like the looks of the Marantz. But, I want my money to get me the best performance...if there is any perceivable differences. Thanks again.

Manufacturers know marketing information can plant seeds in their potential customers minds. Over time, people who have been listening to those exaggerated benefits will hear what those marketing info told them they would hear. That includes the talks, and write ups of the AL32, DDSC HD, Dirac Live, Anthem ARCG, Audyssey, Trinnov, HDAMs, fully differential circuit implementation of dacs and amps, use of tubes, MOSFETS (vs JFETs). It is not to say they don't do anyting, but in terms of audible benefits, they tend to be inaudible if the eyes are not involved in comparison listening tests that are tightly controlled to ensure apples to apples comparisons. Trust specs and measurements, it is science that got us here, not the subjective reviewers who have been telling people every brand, devices has unique sound signatures. If manufacturers, engineers, designers believe those and aim for the most preferred "sound" for their products, we would have to audition in apples to apples comparison listening, in order to know your may be getting what you call "..the best performance....".

Subjective reviewers are fun to read/watch, but not to believe, and you can think of many reasons why they are not to believe, do use logic though.

 

[Cappie]

Manufacturers know marketing information can plant seeds in their potential customers minds. Over time, people who have been listening to those exaggerated benefits will hear what those marketing info told them they would hear. That includes the talks, and write ups of the AL32, DDSC HD, Dirac Live, Anthem ARCG, Audyssey, Trinnov, HDAMs, fully differential circuit implementation of dacs and amps, use of tubes, MOSFETS (vs JFETs). It is not to say they don't do anyting, but in terms of audible benefits, they tend to be inaudible if the eyes are not involved in comparison listening tests that are tightly controlled to ensure apples to apples comparisons. Trust specs and measurements, it is science that got us here, not the subjective reviewers who have been telling people every brand, devices has unique sound signatures. If manufacturers, engineers, designers believe those and aim for the most preferred "sound" for their products, we would have to audition in apples to apples comparison listening, in order to know your may be getting what you call "..the best performance....".

Subjective reviewers are fun to read/watch, but not to believe, and you can think of many reasons why they are not to believe, do use logic though.

Thanks for your thoughts and I agree. Being so new, there just isn't anything out there regarding testing the X4800h. Would you think it superior to the Cinema 50? Why or why not.
Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd just consider them to have different feature sets, pick the feature set closest to your needs/desires (at the best price).

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your thoughts and I agree. Being so new, there just isn't anything out there regarding testing the X4800h. Would you think it superior to the Cinema 50? Why or why not.
Thanks.

It is the Denon equivalent (features and specs) to the Marantz Cinema 40 so yes I think it is superior to the Cinema 50, only in the same way I think the Cinema 40 is to the Cinema 50. The Marantz models cost a lot more for reasons I mentioned before. Higher list price does not equal superiority, in fact, could (if depends) often be considered inferiority, that is, poorer value.

Have you watched the two videos I linked in post#3? That should give you much more specifics than the zkelectronics one that is only useful for a quick comparison.

Again, as HD alluded to, it is a matter of difference in the features, sound quality between all such AVRs should be the same, based on specs and the parts/circuitry described in those two videos.

Personally, I would never (almost) consider the Cinema 50 and the Denon equivalent X3800H) because I like the two line info display on their bigger brothers, the extra HDMI input, 2 more trigger outputs, and the larger power supply. The other differences such as the monolithic power amp design, AL32, DDSC are good on paper but unlikely to result in audio quality improvements.

It is hard to justify the extra dollars for the X4800H, Cinema 40 and even the Cinema 50 over the X3800H especially the money you can save by going with the X3800H can be used to cover the eventual cost of the Dirac Live DLBC that will almost certainly result in clearly audible benefits to those who don't want to spend too much time on tweaking Audyssey with the Editor App.

Obviously, if one considers value as most important, the X3800H is the best deal there is at the moment (among D+M's), but for reasons mentioned above, the X4800H is the best happy media for me, if I need an AVR. If you look at bench measurements, even the Denon AVR-X3700H performed better than any Marantz models including the AV7705/7706, only the SR8015 performed as good. The Cinema series appeared to have done something to improve their expected bench test performance so I would bet the Cinema 40 and 50 can match that of the Denon AVR-X3800H and X4800H, time will time when ASR starts to measure at least one Cimema series model.

By the way, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, if you are going to use external amp, the Onkyo RZ50 may be a very good alternative.

Disclosure: I have used both Denon and Marantz AV products, not long ago I still have 5 Marantz preamp/proc, preamp, power amp, now down to three. I have both D+M products in general.

 

[Cappie]

Great response. Thanks. I will be using 2 Emotiva XPA-5s. One to drive my Monitor Audio Gold towers at 300watts per channel and the other to drive my center and rear surrounds. The AVR will drive my 4 atmos and side surrounds.
I'll have 2 single subs up front, a JTR sealed Captivator 2 with 2 17" drivers in the back and I'll utilize the 4th sub output to drive my buttkickers. I am thinking that the 4800 with the monolithic power supply might be a better match for my Emotiva Amps? Both the 3800 and Cinema 50 only have 1 trigger out which sucks, but I can do a work around that is less than optimal. A lot to consider. Price comparison, features, build quality and some improved internal components(4800 made in Japan). The whole sound difference thing to me goes out the window given that they all have the same dacs, I'll be using it primarily as a processor and once you setup Audyssey correctly, I have yet to hear and argument that would rationalize any perceivable sound difference. Main use is for home theater. I hear that the Denon is a little brighter and the bass is a little more punchier, but again, does that all go out the window after room correction? I still have 2 more weeks to decide. At my age, this will likely be my last purchase so I want to not only future proof myself but I also want to get a machine that will stand the time.
Again, thanks for your well thought out response. Best.

 

[PENG]

Great response. Thanks. I will be using 2 Emotiva XPA-5s. One to drive my Monitor Audio Gold towers at 300watts per channel and the other to drive my center and rear surrounds. The AVR will drive my 4 atmos and side surrounds.
I'll have 2 single subs up front, a JTR sealed Captivator 2 with 2 17" drivers in the back and I'll utilize the 4th sub output to drive my buttkickers. I am thinking that the 4800 with the monolithic power supply might be a better match for my Emotiva Amps? Both the 3800 and Cinema 50 only have 1 trigger out which sucks, but I can do a work around that is less than optimal. A lot to consider. Price comparison, features, build quality and some improved internal components(4800 made in Japan). The whole sound difference thing to me goes out the window given that they all have the same dacs, I'll be using it primarily as a processor and once you setup Audyssey correctly, I have yet to hear and argument that would rationalize any perceivable sound difference. Main use is for home theater. I hear that the Denon is a little brighter and the bass is a little more punchier, but again, does that all go out the window after room correction? I still have 2 more weeks to decide. At my age, this will likely be my last purchase so I want to not only future proof myself but I also want to get a machine that will stand the time.
Again, thanks for your well thought out response. Best.

You are welcome, and on the bright, punch vs warm, layback thing, absolutely just marketing and psychogolical effects.

Facts and evidence based on distortions and frequency response show there will be no such differences in direct mode. The all share the same DSP processors too in addition to having the same dacs, opas and vol chips.

Since you plan on using some of the internal amps, the 4800, or Cinema 40 will score a little better for you.

ASR has measured the 3800, and will be measuring the 4800 in another week or 2, then we can compare the results. I bet it will measure the same, but be a tight better, or worse, but we will see..

 

[Cappie]

Once again, your input is very much appreciated. I do hope to see some testing before I pull the trigger.

 

[PENG]

Once again, your input is very much appreciated. I do hope to see some testing before I pull the trigger.

Just to manage expectation, based on specs, you are likely going to find the Denon AVR-X3800H, X4800H, Marantz Cinema 50, 40 all measure practically the same. But yes, if you can wait, it is better to wait for the results since it will only be about 1 week or 2 wait time. Just incase there may be surprises, good or bad.

You probably know that already, based on the older models performance on ASR's bench tests, one would expect Denon's to measure much better. This time around though, it would appear Marantz has done something to catch up, by using improved HDAMs and might have cleaned up something that generated more noise in the SR6015, SR7015, as evidence in the much improved measurements of the SR8015.

One thing I just noticed after visiting the UK and European Denon, Marantz websites is that the price gap between the comparable D and M models are much lower, about 200 Euros for the C50 vs X3800H and 300 Euro for the C40 vs X4800H, so in Canada and US, the Denon models are really no brainers, unless you really love the style of the M and hate the Denon's. In Europe, Japan, HK etc., the price differences seem more much palatable whereas in the US and Canada, the premium to pay for the non audible benefits is ultra ridiculous!

 

[Cappie]

Peng
100 percent agree. I am going to hold off until I see the test results. As you noted, I can't find any rational reason to pick the Marantz over a Denon other than looks or brand prestige and I can't hear that. So, I have narrowed it down to the 4800 or the 3800. We'll see if the test results warrant the price difference. Thank you for your input.

 

[Cappie]

I do find it interesting that it seems that most reviewers have jumped straight from the X3800h to the flagship AVC-A1H. What does that say about the 4800? Does it not fit a solid niche in the market? I would think that the 4800 will still sell more units than the Cinema 50 at the same price point. Again, the test results between the 3 units will clear up a lot. I realize that the 3800 does almost everything that the 4800 does at a cheaper price. But the Audi Q5 does almost everything that the Porsche Macan does at a cheaper price. They share a lot of the same components. But that doesn't make them the same. Not by a long shot. Anyway, I just find it curious as to why the 4800 isn't getting much attention from the audio community so far. At the very least, for the same price as the Cinema 50, the 4800, at face value, would appear to be a far better spend of your dollars. So many questions, so many unknowns. Lol.

 

[cpp]

I do find it interesting that it seems that most reviewers have jumped straight from the X3800h to the flagship AVC-A1H. What does that say about the 4800? Does it not fit a solid niche in the market? I would think that the 4800 will still sell more units than the Cinema 50 at the same price point. Again, the test results between the 3 units will clear up a lot. I realize that the 3800 does almost everything that the 4800 does at a cheaper price. But the Audi Q5 does almost everything that the Porsche Macan does at a cheaper price. They share a lot of the same components. But that doesn't make them the same. Not by a long shot. Anyway, I just find it curious as to why the 4800 isn't getting much attention from the audio community so far. At the very least, for the same price as the Cinema 50, the 4800, at face value, would appear to be a far better spend of your dollars. So many questions, so many unknowns. Lol.

Just my opinion, reviewers recommending the $6500 Flagship of a product vs a $2500 product ( 4800) always leaves me suspicious about the motive of the reviewer. Could there be some "under the table benefit by the manufacturer to get reviewers to push the Flagship model to boost sales of their costly Flagship model..Is the Flagship product worth over a $2500 difference in performance. Just a thought.

 

[lovinthehd]

I do find it interesting that it seems that most reviewers have jumped straight from the X3800h to the flagship AVC-A1H. What does that say about the 4800? Does it not fit a solid niche in the market? I would think that the 4800 will still sell more units than the Cinema 50 at the same price point. Again, the test results between the 3 units will clear up a lot. I realize that the 3800 does almost everything that the 4800 does at a cheaper price. But the Audi Q5 does almost everything that the Porsche Macan does at a cheaper price. They share a lot of the same components. But that doesn't make them the same. Not by a long shot. Anyway, I just find it curious as to why the 4800 isn't getting much attention from the audio community so far. At the very least, for the same price as the Cinema 50, the 4800, at face value, would appear to be a far better spend of your dollars. So many questions, so many unknowns. Lol.

My first thought was the 4800 didn't come out right away, especially compared to the 3800. I also only pay attention to two reviewers for the most part, but wonder how many got free units to review? A new flagship is kinda more interesting too....