New home theater - need help on key decisions!!

[LMS]

Hello folks – I could really use some help with a new home theater set up where I will need to make some difficult trade offs with speaker layout and receiver selection. It’s a new house and there’s already pre-wiring as follows, which allows for 7 speakers in the main room plus 2 more zones (see drawing)

Front ear level – currently using paradigm seMK3 floor speakers….20+ years old and still great

Center (ceiling) – I’m using the ceiling center because I have the 77” TV on a credenza, and an eye level center would need to be very small in order to fit the shelf below the TV. Also the builder may not have wired for lower center – the wires are behind furniture so I can’t tell. The ceiling speaker is firing straight down. I can’t take off the grill to see if they can be angled. These were installed by the builder's subcontractor who seems to know what he's doing, but at the same time they only cost $300/pair. Sad state but that’s what it is.

Ceiling: ( 2 front L/R, 2 L/R back) The front ceiling ones are about 4 feet from the TV wall and there is 5 feet between the center and the front L/R ceiling. The back ones unfortunately are 1-2 feet in front of the main listening position because duct work is in the way (I’m really annoyed about this btw). Again, I think all of these are firing straight down

Subwoofer: I have one subwoofer that is next to front left speaker

Zones: I have a second zone in the back for rec room area, and third for fitness room ceiling speakers. I’m using a speaker switch to be able to use both off zone 2.

So here are my questions:

Should I set up 7.2 or upgrade to a 9.2 receiver, which would enable me to use Atmos. My considerations are how much of a difference would the front atmos make, especially if they can only fire down from ceiling (which is undetermined)….and its $500 difference in cost for the receiver to get 9 channel. The receiver I picked out is a Denon AVRx2800H (7.2 channel 95W Atmos)

My speaker switch can run 2 more zones in addition to the rec room and fitness center. Could I add the front ceiling L/R to the speaker switch and create more immersive effect? Note that I would never need all 3 zones running at same time. I think that would mean all sound would play from those ceiling front’s rather than the nuanced Atmos sound mix but is it better than not using the ceiling front at all?

Sub placement/set up: 1) am I ok leaving it close to main front or do I move further towards corner (I would need a heavy duty extension cord to do this) 2) Should I get a second sub (I’m sure everyone will say yes). 3) In terms of setting crossover – should I do that via the receiver Audyssey set up or on the subwoofer? I know 80ish is typical. What happens if the receiver crossover is set higher (say 120) than the sub (say 60)?

Center – I’m pretty sure this is firing straight down, and again unsure if this can be angled towards seating area. Is it better to leave it the way it is and let receiver compensate or use a smaller center (5.5 inch height and 5.75 inch depth is max that would fit) given the furniture.

Rear – will receiver compensate for weird position relative to couch?

Thanks to all for your advice!
Leanne

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There’s a lot to consider here. What I would do, is add a pair of ear level surrounds, and do 5.x.4 using the existing ceiling speakers as overhead speakers. Imo, Atmos is absolutely worth it, but you CAN NOT do it with bed layer speakers in the ceiling. If you can’t do ear level surrounds and center then do 7.1.
Also, what is the current subwoofer? The AVR can “compensate” for some things, but speakers placement and room anomalies can only be “fixed” so much. No you can’t use another zone to run the top fronts. As for XO, yes that’s set in the AVR. But if the XO is set higher, like 100hz, then you shouldn’t lower it. That’s because the AVR has found the f3 and set the xo accordingly. Also, there will be no Eq between the point the AVR set it at, and where you set it. In short, you can raise the XO, but not lower it.
Just .02 very quickly.

 

[LMS]

Thanks for the quick reply, very helpful. In terms of having ear level surrounds by the couch, that will be tough as we'd have to run speaker wire across the carpet in between couch and love seat, and have the speakers in a weird spot. So sounds like 5.1 (or 5.2) and using a ceiling center is the best option for main area....plus the zone 2/3 speakers.

In terms of the sub - I got a SVS SB-1000 Pro Subwoofer. Bass goes down to 20 Hz. I don't know much about buying subs - this is what the audio guy recommended. Any thoughts on it and sub placement relative to fronts? He's putting it right next to the TV credenza.

On the ceiling speakers - would you expect that they would be able to angle towards the seating area? I don't know if that's more of a standard feature or only at certain price points. My hope is that angling could help the center sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

Part of the bed layer in the ceiling as was said somewhat defeats Atmos. L/R with floor speakers and a center in the ceiling just makes no sense to me (WAF maybe, but not in an audio sense); I'd just turn the center off and just use a phantom center from the L/R speakers. I'd not want my L/R or surrounds in the ceiling either, but they could perhaps be used as Atmos instead. Some ceiling speakers can be angled, but depends on the speaker.

As far as sub goes, they kind of need to be placed where they need to be placed, can be somewhat less critical with duals. Hard to know in your room what the best place is. A sub crawl may be an idea for you. Turn the low pass filter (may be labeled crossover, but it's just a low pass filter) on your sub to max value; some subs have an LFE input that bypasses that automatically, but if you're not sure just max out the value....you don't want two different filters (the one from the avr plus the one in the sub) simultaneously. Your avr may not suggest the same crossover Audyssey would (most avr manufacturers don't use Audyssey's own suggestion of setting all speakers to small and start with an 80hz crossover). 80 is a good starting point, maybe try higher or lower, best way to determine is by measuring.

 

[LMS]

Thanks again....sorry for so many questions but your advice is way better than the guy in audio store who didn't bring up any of these considerations.

There is one alternative to a ceiling center or skipping it in favor of phantom center....that's to get a small center that can fit in the credenza, slightly under ear height.. Here are a few that I found, would this be a better option relative to the other two? I have a 95w receiver and Paradigm fronts and quite frankly don't know how to interpret this..

Paradigm fronts
Range of 15-150w
8 ohms
Sensitivity Room / Anechoic 90 dB / 87 dB
±2dB from 57 Hz - 20kHz

Center - Martin Logan Motion 6

• 120 - 23,000 Hz +/-3dB Frequency Response
• 80 Degrees Horizontal Dispersion
• 80 Degrees Vertical Dispersion
• Two 3" Poly Cone With Stamped Steel Basket Low Frequency Transducer
• 89 dB/2.83 volts/meter Sensitivity
• 6 Ohms Impedance
• 20-130 Watts Per Channel Recommended Amplifier Power
• 4,000 Hz Crossover Frequency

Center - Golden Ear Super Sat 3C

• HVFR™ (High-Velocity Folded Ribbon) tweeter for exceptional detail with low distortion
• two 4-1/2" mid/bass drivers with cast-basket chassis
• frequency response: 80-35,000 Hz
• sensitivity: 92 dB
• nominal impedance: 8 ohms
• recommended amplifier power: 20-200 watts

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Welll IMO, a center placed under the display would be much better than one in the ceiling pointing down, even if it’s smaller. Unless you’re pushing the volume up, you should be ok. The GE center is more sensitive, so it will play louder more easily.
What are the room dimensions? The sb2000 is an ok little sub. But it’s sealed and will have much less output below about 35hz than it’s ported sister the Pb2000. Curious why the guy at the store chose that. As HD mentioned, in order for subwoofers to perform their best, they should be placed where they actually do perform their best. That’s often not where it’s convenient to place them lol. Also, while dual subs will give you more output, the main objective with them is for more even bass response through the room.
Do you have any pics or diagrams? That can be helpful to see what you’re dealing with.
Don’t worry about too many questions. Better to ask now than after it’s too late! Lol

 

[TLS Guy]

Whatever else you do, get rid of that center ceiling speaker. That will bug you ne end, and pretty much make you installation drive you nuts.

Those ceiling fronts are too far forward. As others have said, if you want an Atmos installation, then only the Atmos speakers can be in the ceiling.

Lastly, you have come a bit late in the day, but all AV cables in wall, or not accessible should be run in conduit. We get quite a few coming here with problems who wished they had.

 

[LMS]

Yeah the ceiling center has annoyed me to no end, and all of you have verified to bail on it. The good news is that I didn't pay anything extra since they were part of the house build specs. I'm going to go with my paradigm fronts and a new, small center speaker that fits under TV.
As for ceiling, in the installer's defense, he had some restrictions because of the vents and lighting. What really stinks is that rear surrounds are very much non ideal. I can't picture a way to get those in a better place, particularly ear level, without tripping people.

As for William's question on room dimensions.....Its a big long rectangle that's wide open. The front wall with TV is 20' wide. Then it's 14' from that wall to back of couch....and another 28' from couch to the opposite wall. That second area is a rec room where I have 2 ceiling speakers. There's another zone down there in fitness room where I have 2 ceiling speakers (Hearing the Peloton guy kick my butt from ceiling is rather motivating).
I put the more specific measurements for speakers in the PDF of my first email.

 

[Wardog555]

Read this before you make any further decisions.

Salesforce

dolby.my.salesforce.com

This will tell you everything you need to know in terms of placement.

The builder doesn't care and have intentionally mislead you.

Looking at your pdf plan. If you sit between and the middle the ceiling speakers you can get 4 atmos speakers.

 

[LMS]

Read this before you make any further decisions.

Salesforce

dolby.my.salesforce.com

This will tell you everything you need to know in terms of placement.

The builder doesn't care and have intentionally mislead you.

Looking at your pdf plan. If you sit between and the middle the ceiling speakers you can get 4 atmos speakers.

do you mean the middle of the back speakers? If you mean the center of all ceiling speakers, that would be just a few feet from the screen

 

[Wardog555]

What I mean is sitting In the middle of the 4 ceiling atmos speakers.
They are meant to be a square and you're directly in the middle of it.

If you only using two atmos speakers then between the ones almost directly above you.

The placement for 2 vs 4 atmos speakers are different.
You can either move the seating forward. move all the ceiling speakers back. Or just use two atmos speakers that is already directly above you.

Enjoy!