Back again & finally ready to pull the trigger... Help!

[jcbower]

I posted back in May of 2020 about upgrading my setup and everyone was so helpful! Seems like forever ago and just yesterday at the same time.. thanks COVID.

Long story long we ended up planning a large build / reno (gutted and redid everything) of our house that started April of last year... currently at the insulation phase & I'm starting to plan my equipment upgrades / purchases for the new dedicated theatre room. Unfortunately it's in the pre existing part of the house & only has 8ft ceilings. Room is on the smaller side for a theatre at 15'2" x 18'10" with the theatre coach located on the long wall. I'm doing some pre wiring now with 300 feet of way more expensive then I expected audioquest low db cable. Here's my plan / quesitons...

I have a Denon x6500H AVR - Everything else I posted about 2 years ago will be replaced... Running with a Samsung LSP9 UST for a 130" projection on the other long wall.

I'm planning to go all in on Paradigm because I've read lots of great reviews, they're Canadian, and they seemed to be recommended a lot in other posts across the forum (mine from years ago included).

Interested in doing 7.2.4 with 4 in-ceiling atmos. I know in other posts people have recommended dropping 2 of the atmos ceiling speakers because of room size and angle with a coach close to the wall... but also others have ignored the specs & went with 4 anyways and seem to enjoy their system (for whatever that's worth).

Center: 600c
L&R: 800f's
L&R Back & L&R Surround: I'm a little spun around on what works best for these channels. 200b bookshelf? Surround 3 high-performance? Other Paradigm recommendations?
Ceiling: CI Pro P65-R or H65-SM CI? For Atmos will there be an audible roi going from the home to pro?
Subs: Two Defiance likely x15's or x12's. still deciding on size and placement as it gets a little wonky spacing out the screen wall with so much real estate taken up by the screen itself.

Links below for all the product mentioned. Pics attached of the rough room in progress. We added insulation bats to ceiling and interior walls to help with sound deadening.

Woofers
Center
L&R Front
CeilingA and CeilingB
Back and Surround options.

Thanks in advance!

 

[}Fear_Inoculum{]

I'd recommend not using the Paradigm in ceiling or surround speakers. I say this as a Paradigm fan and owner. IMHO, they're not worth the cost for the performance. Great choice on the LCR (I've got the same setup), but you can get just as good (again IMO) for a lot less with the surrounds and Atmos speakers. Also, love the Defiance X12s, if I had a bigger room myself, I'd have gone with the X15s. Take a look at my signature to see what I'm running.

Cheers.

 

[jcbower]

I'd recommend not using the Paradigm in ceiling or surround speakers. I say this as a Paradigm fan and owner. IMHO, they're not worth the cost for the performance. Great choice on the LCR (I've got the same setup), but you can get just as good (again IMO) for a lot less with the surrounds and Atmos speakers. Also, love the Defiance X12s, if I had a bigger room myself, I'd have gone with the X15s. Take a look at my signature to see what I'm running.

Cheers.

Thanks for the input! When I was originally planning this out awhile back I wanted to Prestige line that Paradigm made... sad to see they were discontinued. Thanks for sharing some alternatives as well. I haven't read much about KEF's or RSL's but I'll look them up to get educated. I do like the idea of having all speakers match.

I'm more concerned about the different style / purpose / function of the Surround 3 style speaker vs the 200b bookshelf. Ones spec states 4-driver, 2-way bi-directional surround/rear vs 2-driver, 2-way bass reflex bookshelf. What are the implications of these features in using them for the back and side surrounds?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

At the very least you can gain back some money by retuning the fraudioquest cable.
I also have the RSL c34e’s and they’ve been excellent for me. Can’t beat the price, but not sure about getting them to Canada.

 

[}Fear_Inoculum{]

I was looking at the Prestige line myself, but with advice from Audioholics decided that the cost vs performance wasn't justified over the Premieres. I was also looking aat an all Paradigm setup, but ditto on that as well. At the end of the day, it's down to budget and personal preference. The Paradigm Speakers are great, but IMO not worth the additional cost over other speakers .

 

[lovinthehd]

Why did you buy fraudioquest? "low dB" cable means what?

 

[Eppie]

Thanks for the input! When I was originally planning this out awhile back I wanted to Prestige line that Paradigm made... sad to see they were discontinued. Thanks for sharing some alternatives as well. I haven't read much about KEF's or RSL's but I'll look them up to get educated. I do like the idea of having all speakers match.

I'm more concerned about the different style / purpose / function of the Surround 3 style speaker vs the 200b bookshelf. Ones spec states 4-driver, 2-way bi-directional surround/rear vs 2-driver, 2-way bass reflex bookshelf. What are the implications of these features in using them for the back and side surrounds?

I would base that decision on the listening habits and number of seating positions. The Surrround 3 will provide a more diffuse surround field and would be suited to movies with a setup which has multiple seating locations. If multi-channel music quality is more important and you have primarily one main listening position, then the 200B could produce better results. Over $1,000 per pair for surrounds is a hefty investment though. If this is primarily for movie viewing, remember that surrounds carry mostly effects tracks. You don't get a lot of dialogue or music from them, which is why the others recommended saving some cash on the surrounds. The 200B is suitable for a main speaker paired with a subwoofer so it's overkill for a surround. If you think you'll get into multi-channel audio then they might be worth the extra.

Not that you'll be the first to use high end speakers for surrounds. There are plenty that have tower speakers in the back. You could even use the 200B for rears and the Surround 3 for side surrounds. They are your duckets after all. For in-ceiling ATMOS these full range speakers from MarkAudio are only $65 and would do just fine. One of our forum regulars swears by these.

 

[jcbower]

At the very least you can gain back some money by retuning the fraudioquest cable.
I also have the RSL c34e’s and they’ve been excellent for me. Can’t beat the price, but not sure about getting them to Canada.

Yeah… I was in a situation where I was out of town at a pro audio installers getting advice & thought I needed to wire my walls that evening when I got home before insulators came in and hadn’t purchased cable yet.

Just bought 300ft of what he uses on jobs off his real. $1200 later. Had a feeling I would have regret buying it but thought I was in a pinch.


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[jcbower]

Why did you buy fraudioquest? "low dB" cable means what?

Typo. It’s SLIP DB… something to do with the jacket being slippery and easier to pull through walls distances.


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[jcbower]

I would base that decision on the listening habits and number of seating positions. The Surrround 3 will provide a more diffuse surround field and would be suited to movies with a setup which has multiple seating locations. If multi-channel music quality is more important and you have primarily one main listening position, then the 200B could produce better results. Over $1,000 per pair for surrounds is a hefty investment though. If this is primarily for movie viewing, remember that surrounds carry mostly effects tracks. You don't get a lot of dialogue or music from them, which is why the others recommended saving some cash on the surrounds. The 200B is suitable for a main speaker paired with a subwoofer so it's overkill for a surround. If you think you'll get into multi-channel audio then they might be worth the extra.

Not that you'll be the first to use high end speakers for surrounds. There are plenty that have tower speakers in the back. You could even use the 200B for rears and the Surround 3 for side surrounds. They are your duckets after all. For in-ceiling ATMOS these full range speakers from MarkAudio are only $65 and would do just fine. One of our forum regulars swears by these.

Thanks for addressing my main concerns. Systems primarily for movie viewing. The furniture for the room is a large C shaped sectional with 4 power recliners & two corner coaches. The main two seats are in the center though.

Will likely go Surround 3’s for sides and rethink backs. Likely rethink ceilings as well or at the very least go with the cheaper paradigms.

Any concerns with my 6500H powering all 11 channels? Should I consider additional power for the front 3?


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[lovinthehd]

Typo. It’s SLIP DB… something to do with the jacket being slippery and easier to pull through walls distances.


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Use conduit for your cables for that....

 

[Eppie]

Thanks for addressing my main concerns. Systems primarily for movie viewing. The furniture for the room is a large C shaped sectional with 4 power recliners & two corner coaches. The main two seats are in the center though.

Will likely go Surround 3’s for sides and rethink backs. Likely rethink ceilings as well or at the very least go with the cheaper paradigms.

Any concerns with my 6500H powering all 11 channels? Should I consider additional power for the front 3?

Looking at the construction photos, you need to plan the side surrounds carefully. The Surround 3 is usually surface mounted. That would work on your back wall as rear speakers between the two windows. The sides are another issue. I see a double window where the left surround would go and an open space on the right side. Surface 3 likely won't work in those locations. You'll need a stand mount speaker on the right side, so likely the same on the left near the window. Think about the wiring for the right side.

Size may become an issue in the those locations. The 200B may be a little large so something like a KEF Q150 that }Fear_Inoculum{ is using might work better. That's a personal choice, whether you want something small and inobtrusive, or something bigger to match your mains. I think the KEF would be better than say stepping down to the Paradigm Monitor SE Atom. Going with four Q150 would also make sense to keep them timbre and level matched. Four 200B would work but that's $3000 vs $1000 for the KEF. Your dealer may have other suggestions. The RSLs mentioned above have proven popular for ceiling applications.

Amplification depends on sitting distance and what volume levels you like. The 6500H is 140W/ch with 2 channels driven, so no slouch. The 800F has a sensitivity of 92dB so it doesn't need gobs of power. You may find the 6500H sufficient. Nice thing is that the AVR has a full set of pre-outs so you can always add a front channel amp later if you feel that it's lacking. With all channels driven you might want to consider a low profile quiet fan on top of the AVR to keep it cool.

 

[kmidst]

I have four atmos speakers and love it. With the right content it fills in that bubble of sound in combination with the surround speakers. For examples there's an iOS app Odysound that has looping atmos tracks such as a seascape, and that showcases it well. I haven't tested just two heights instead of four yet, but I think it would really limit the effect. I'll try tonight hopefully and get back.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have four atmos speakers and love it. With the right content it fills in that bubble of sound in combination with the surround speakers. For examples there's an iOS app Odysound that has looping atmos tracks such as a seascape, and that showcases it well. I haven't tested just two heights instead of four yet, but I think it would really limit the effect. I'll try tonight hopefully and get back.

How far are your back Atmos speakers from seats?
OP is almost at the back wall.

 

[mtrycrafts]

OP, I am curious why you are placing the screen on the long wall. Your couch is almost on the back wall.

 

[jcbower]

OP, I am curious why you are placing the screen on the long wall. Your couch is almost on the back wall.

Few reasons.
- my coach for the theatre room is too wide for the shorter wall & would completely block entry to the room. Picture attached.
- with a 130” screen the short wall would only leave 2.5’ left on either side which is too tight for towers / subs / etc.
- plus I’d be covering windows with the screen.

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[kmidst]

How far are your back Atmos speakers from seats?
OP is almost at the back wall.

Good point, I am sitting about 1/3 of the room from the back wall. Almost parallel to the side surrounds and rear heights. I would like to be centered more in regards to the whole setup but the room size isn't practical for that. Even like that the atmos effect works well.
Still though, looking at OP's floor plan he is able to accommodate rear surrounds and so should also be able to put in rear heights. I gotta give my recommendation for that for the extra fill the rear heights can provide.

 

[jcbower]

Good point, I am sitting about 1/3 of the room from the back wall. Almost parallel to the side surrounds and rear heights. I would like to be centered more in regards to the whole setup but the room size isn't practical for that. Even like that the atmos effect works well.
Still though, looking at OP's floor plan he is able to accommodate rear surrounds and so should also be able to put in rear heights. I gotta give my recommendation for that for the extra fill the rear heights can provide.

I wired the room the other day. Wired it for 11.2.4. I have a little room to play with distance off the wall, but not a lot. Coach already sits 12"'s off the wall to allow for the power reclining.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Few reasons.
- my coach for the theatre room is too wide for the shorter wall & would completely block entry to the room. Picture attached.
- with a 130” screen the short wall would only leave 2.5’ left on either side which is too tight for towers / subs / etc.
- plus I’d be covering windows with the screen.

....


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I figured. So, the couch dictates how to set up the room?
They do make screens for speakers behind the screen.

 

[jcbower]

I figured. So, the couch dictates how to set up the room?
They do make screens for speakers behind the screen.

Yes! I thought about going with all in-wall fronts and an acoustically transparent screen, but on the wall I'm using not the one you're suggesting. The coach really is dictating the space.. it's not an ideal theatre seating arrangement but my family is a big fan of it and it cost about 13k... so I'm not read to part with it yet.