Klipsch Cornwall IV

[hart3369]

So I just purchased a set of Klipsch Cornwall IV's and of course they were quite pricey. As it stands now I'm not overly impressed given their price tag. Currently I'm driving them with a Marantz PM8006 which I realize isn't exactly state of the art, yet it's a pretty good amp. I just purchased an NAD M23 amp with a Parasound Halo P6 pre-amp which are head and shoulders above the Marantz. I haven't received the Amp and Pre-amp yet, but my "hope" is obviously that the new amp and pre-amp "wake up" the speakers. I also understand that speaker placement can be critical and I have experimented with that, but no joy. Time will tell I guess, but so far I'm not thrilled, in fact my rear speakers are Polk RTi- A2's and to my ear sound "nrearly" as good for a fraction of the cost.

 

[lovinthehd]

While the M23 is a very nice power amp, the likely advantage it has over the Marantz integrated is quite a bit more power, particularly at lower impedance. Even though Klipsch overstates sensitivity spec (compared to the usual specs most offer, they aim for an in-room equivalent vs anechoic), it's still relatively sensitive so will depend how loud you play and how far away you are from the speakers as to whether the extra power will make a big difference in your use.

Many don't care for the Klipsch speakers, tho, even these legacy/heritage type models....

Why did you choose the Klipsch to begin with?

 

[ski2xblack]

I doubt a different amp and preamp will make a difference. Plus, the Marantz's three band tone controls might actually be useful in this situation. (I haven't heard the IV's, but I've never met a Heritage speaker that didn't benefit from reeling in the mids and highs.)

While you fiddle with placement, you might want to try more extreme toe-in (for the sake of time/intensity trading and expanded sweet spot). And realize their name is also their placement requirements, deviation from which results in anemic bass. They're not intended or designed to be free standing away from the walls. Yes, that's an archaic approach, it's the one Klipsch has taken with this archaic design.

Alas, they may just not be your cup of tea, even if you try everything. If this was a recent purchase, are you within the return grace period? For that amount of coin, you shouldn't be second guessing the purchase.

 

[hart3369]

While the M23 is a very nice power amp, the likely advantage it has over the Marantz integrated is quite a bit more power, particularly at lower impedance. Even though Klipsch overstates sensitivity spec (compared to the usual specs most offer, they aim for an in-room equivalent vs anechoic), it's still relatively sensitive so will depend how loud you play and how far away you are from the speakers as to whether the extra power will make a big difference in your use.

Many don't care for the Klipsch speakers, tho, even these legacy/heritage type models....

Why did you choose the Klipsch to begin with?

So I chose the Klipsch speakers for a couple reasons. First off I have a fairly big room and I also have a friend who owns a pair, he has them in a large room also, his sound absolutely stunning. That said, he is running the preamp and amp I described in my original post and I'm hoping that will bring these speakers alive in terms of low frequency. The mids and highs are fantastic and I have no complaints in that regard, but I would expect better bass reproduction out of these speakers given the fact that they have 15" drivers with massive enclosures. The Parasound has a lot more flexibility in terms of tone adjustability compared to the Marantz, I'm hoping it will be the key that unlocks the current shortcomings, until then the jury is still out. I'm supposed to receive the new amp and pre-amp this Thursday, I'll post an update when I get things up and running.

 

[lovinthehd]

So I chose the Klipsch speakers for a couple reasons. First off I have a fairly big room and I also have a friend who owns a pair, he has them in a large room also, his sound absolutely stunning. That said, he is running the preamp and amp I described in my original post and I'm hoping that will bring these speakers alive in terms of low frequency. The mids and highs are fantastic and I have no complaints in that regard, but I would expect better bass reproduction out of these speakers given the fact that they have 15" drivers with massive enclosures. The Parasound has a lot more flexibility in terms of tone adjustability compared to the Marantz, I'm hoping it will be the key that unlocks the current shortcomings, until then the jury is still out. I'm supposed to receive the new amp and pre-amp this Thursday, I'll post an update when I get things up and running.

The size of the driver isn't particularly telling in how well the speaker does with bass, especially lower bass. I'd use subs with those speakers....

Alive means what, when you turn it up you get to a point where the speaker sounds like its distorting or something?

The room makes a huge part of how a speaker will sound along with how you position speakers in the room....what's your friends' room details and how does it compare to yours?

 

[hart3369]

I doubt a different amp and preamp will make a difference. Plus, the Marantz's three band tone controls might actually be useful in this situation. (I haven't heard the IV's, but I've never met a Heritage speaker that didn't benefit from reeling in the mids and highs.)

While you fiddle with placement, you might want to try more extreme toe-in (for the sake of time/intensity trading and expanded sweet spot). And realize their name is also their placement requirements, deviation from which results in anemic bass. They're not intended or designed to be free standing away from the walls. Yes, that's an archaic approach, it's the one Klipsch has taken with this archaic design.

Alas, they may just not be your cup of tea, even if you try everything. If this was a recent purchase, are you within the return grace period? For that amount of coin, you shouldn't be second guessing the purchase.

Thanks for the feedback first of all. I am more than pleased with highs and midrange reproduced by these speakers, stunning in that regard. Where the disappointment comes in is with the "anemic" bass, I realize they won't reproduce the punch of a dedicated sub, but for $6500 bucks I was expecting more. I purchased these for a couple reasons as I talked about in the previous thread. First, I have a big room and I wanted a speaker that would fill it, second, I have a friend who owns them who also has them in a big room, his sound awesome in regards to low frequency reproduction. He is using the Parasound Halo P6 preamp and NAD M23 power amp to drive his speakers (which I purchased the other day), I have yet to receive those components, but they are supposed to be here this Thursday. Obviously the hope is the addition of the new amplifier components will be the key to correcting the low end issue, it seems to work wonderfully for my buddy. So time will tell, I have to be honest, at $6500 a pair I'm feeling a little "butt hurt, lol. Worse case scenario I still have the option to return them and look for other options. Again, appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I'll share an update once I get everything up and running. Cheers

 

[ski2xblack]

Having been around the Klipsch Heritage block a few times, I appreciate your situation as well as what the speakers are capable of. As long as you have them in your possession, I encourage you to continue to experiment, with both placement and the tone controls.

...I am more than pleased with highs and midrange reproduced by these speakers, stunning in that regard. Where the disappointment comes in is with the "anemic" bass...

And you'll still get the stunning highs and midrange even if you eq them down (or eq the bass up) for the sake of a more natural tonal balance. These speakers are dependent upon boundary reinforcement in order to hit their bass extension and output specs, so the further from walls and corners you have them the more eq needs to be applied. That compensation would be required regardless of front end components driving them (although for your large room, the extra watts won't hurt).

And some further reading to mull over regarding placement ideas:
Setup of Controlled-Directivity Waveguide Speakers http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup of WG Speakers.pdf

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for the feedback first of all. I am more than pleased with highs and midrange reproduced by these speakers, stunning in that regard. Where the disappointment comes in is with the "anemic" bass, I realize they won't reproduce the punch of a dedicated sub, but for $6500 bucks I was expecting more. I purchased these for a couple reasons as I talked about in the previous thread. First, I have a big room and I wanted a speaker that would fill it, second, I have a friend who owns them who also has them in a big room, his sound awesome in regards to low frequency reproduction. He is using the Parasound Halo P6 preamp and NAD M23 power amp to drive his speakers (which I purchased the other day), I have yet to receive those components, but they are supposed to be here this Thursday. Obviously the hope is the addition of the new amplifier components will be the key to correcting the low end issue, it seems to work wonderfully for my buddy. So time will tell, I have to be honest, at $6500 a pair I'm feeling a little "butt hurt, lol. Worse case scenario I still have the option to return them and look for other options. Again, appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I'll share an update once I get everything up and running. Cheers

Describe or show the room- that can make a huge difference in how any speaker can sound.

 

[Yardstick]

I've been watching this discussion because I've had some very large but very bass-light speakers in the past. I have a couple of questions.

1. How many differences are there between your room and your friend's room? Dimensions, furniture, windows, openings, flooring, etc...?
2. General question for anyone knowledgeable - Could this be a break-in issue?

 

[ski2xblack]

I've had some very large but very bass-light speakers in the past.

That's Hoffman's Iron Law at work, where speaker design juggles the trade offs associated with cab size, sensitivity, and bass extension. Often the case, and certainly so with the CW IV, is prioritizing sensitivity over extension.

OP should consider your first question. How they're implemented in the room will allow him to squeeze as much enjoyment as possible out of them. Whether he ultmately decides the results are lemons or lemonade is tbd.

2. General question for anyone knowledgeable - Could this be a break-in issue?

Doubtful. Most drivers are "broken in" with the application of just a few cycles of signal. Now, the drivers in the CW will barely move unless one's really leaning into the volume control, so any changes from straight out of the box to what they settle down to be may take slightly longer, but is still on the order of minutes. For the most part, "break in" is merely psychological acclimation on the part of the listener. Claims that speakers need hundreds of hours to break in are bunk.

 

[fmw]

Sub woofers are the answer to anemic bass. No audio system should be without one.

 

[ryanosaur]

No audio system should be without one three.

FTFY

 

[ski2xblack]

Full Martys, in order to keep up with the CW's prodigious output capabilities.

 

[noway]

OP please provide pics of your room that include speaker positioning, listener positioning and dimensions...otherwise we're just playing a guessing game.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the feedback first of all. I am more than pleased with highs and midrange reproduced by these speakers, stunning in that regard. Where the disappointment comes in is with the "anemic" bass, I realize they won't reproduce the punch of a dedicated sub, but for $6500 bucks I was expecting more. I purchased these for a couple reasons as I talked about in the previous thread. First, I have a big room and I wanted a speaker that would fill it, second, I have a friend who owns them who also has them in a big room, his sound awesome in regards to low frequency reproduction. He is using the Parasound Halo P6 preamp and NAD M23 power amp to drive his speakers (which I purchased the other day), I have yet to receive those components, but they are supposed to be here this Thursday. Obviously the hope is the addition of the new amplifier components will be the key to correcting the low end issue, it seems to work wonderfully for my buddy. So time will tell, I have to be honest, at $6500 a pair I'm feeling a little "butt hurt, lol. Worse case scenario I still have the option to return them and look for other options. Again, appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I'll share an update once I get everything up and running. Cheers

You would expect the bass to be anemic and the specs confirm it. They are highly sensitive speakers, and there is an inverse relationship between sensitivity and bass extension. Those speakers are along the lines of pro speakers which all have poor bass extension. You will need a couple of subs to correct this. You can't fight physics no matter what amp you use. They will sound the same whatever amp you pick. Spend you money on subs and NOT amps. Those speakers do not need monster amps from the specs. The design is ported, so you can not correct this with a bass control. The bass driver decouples from the box below F3.

 

[duder1982]

Even though Klipsch overstates sensitivity spec (compared to the usual specs most offer, they aim for an in-room equivalent vs anechoic),

Are you saying that since Klipsch test their speakers in a anechoci chamber that their sensitivity is overstated?

 

[duder1982]

I've always been curious as to what one conisders bass. I own Heresy 1s, Cornwall IVs, and have owned Cornwall Is, along with DIY Belles. I've always thought my Cornwalls had more bass than all. I was watching a movie the other day and thought "wow, thats some good bass" maybe its just me. Ironically I feel that my room with the DIY Belles could use more bass.

The room that the Cornwall IVs are in is an open concept with the Cornwalls 3-4 inches from the wall toed about 60 degress, Marantz SR5015 for the AVR. Could a sub be used for LFE, absoulety, but i've known lots of Cornwall oweners that have loved the bass without use of subs. Some of those owners were running high power Carver amps. Maybe thats the key, more power to "wake them up"?

 

[TLS Guy]

Are you saying that since Klipsch test their speakers in a anechoci chamber that their sensitivity is overstated?

The issue is that sensitivity is not the whole issue. Horn speakers like those Klipsch speakers tend to be directional, so more of the output is sent to the testing microphone in front of the cone. However how loud the speaker seems is much more related to total power output to the room. So a highly directional speaker will measure a higher sensitivity, than a speaker with as much or more sensitivity than a speaker with good off axis performance that has a measured lower sensitivity. Manufacturers like to be highly selective in their published numbers, and do everything they can to obfuscate the total performance. In other words, it is those wretched marketers, who know nothing of value, only how to confuse and mislead the public.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've always been curious as to what one conisders bass. I own Heresy 1s, Cornwall IVs, and have owned Cornwall Is, along with DIY Belles. I've always thought my Cornwalls had more bass than all. I was watching a movie the other day and thought "wow, thats some good bass" maybe its just me. Ironically I feel that my room with the DIY Belles could use more bass.

The room that the Cornwall IVs are in is an open concept with the Cornwalls 3-4 inches from the wall toed about 60 degress, Marantz SR5015 for the AVR. Could a sub be used for LFE, absoulety, but i've known lots of Cornwall oweners that have loved the bass without use of subs. Some of those owners were running high power Carver amps. Maybe thats the key, more power to "wake them up"?

Power does not wake speakers up. However the undiscerning often don't miss deep bass, as most of what is perceived as bass is actually above 60 Hz. So a speaker with good solid performance to 60 Hz, will not sound bass deficient on a lot of program. Most of the old Altecs rolled off around 60 Hz, and yet their bass was sought after.

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you saying that since Klipsch test their speakers in a anechoci chamber that their sensitivity is overstated?

No am saying they use an in-room equivalent which would be higher stated sensitivity than typical tests/spec as used by most others (as evidenced by many reviews with measurements). I don't know if they test anechoically and then add to it with a formula or not, tho.