Coffee Bean Grinders

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
We also have a Baratza Virtuoso, the current one with the electronic timer.

When I grind for espresso, at the 6 setting, I don't get static. But when I grind at 18 for drip or 26 for french press I do get static and coffee will stick to the cup. A solution is not to use the cup for espresso and to use instead the optional portafilter holder and just set the timer to put 19 grams. ( I don't do singles, only doubles ).

I'm thinking of getting another grinder just for espresso so I won't have to mess around with the grinder so much. I like the ones with a doser attachment but I'm afraid that will leave ground coffee around after grinding it. I'd rather move to a grind/brew a double shot at a time. Baratza makes the Sette 270Wi... but I'm running out of space on the counter. It's bad enough I got so much audio equipment that we're running out of house space ( no stereos in the bathrooms yet...), the kitchen is also bursting at the seams...

BTW, I got the optional hoppers with the ON/OFF valve. Never used as such, but they look cool, so there, I got them. ;-)
I usually grind on the Virtuoso at 0-4 and will usually get static. A friend of mine made a thing, a plug with stripped lamp wire, connected to the ground only to wave around inside the plastic container. I also can wave a solid steel table knife I have thru the grind and that gets rid of static quickly too. Usually I just busy myself with other preparations, it goes away fairly quickly but I suppose am in a generally more humid environment, too.

I found even on 0 on the Virtuoso was still having some issues pulling shots with my Flair (manual espresso thing), so got the 1Zpresso K-Plus set, which can grind much finer and many more adjustments across the range. I have what they call a blind shaker where after grinding, you place the shaker over your portafilter and pull up on a handle on a plug inside the cup, opening the bottom and dumping the coffee into the portafilter. A coupla drips of water on a full load of beans (only 35-40g). Not as fancy as an electric with a portafilter holder, but the Virtuoso doesn't have one either.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You people and your fancy grinders. This manual grinder is adjustable and works just fine. Counts towards my daily exercise routine at the same time!
I have one just like that! In 2002, after a hurricane left us without electricity for 5 or 6 days, I bought it as a back up. With a gas stove and a manual drip coffee maker, I could make coffee only if it was already ground. Since getting it, I've used it 2 or 3 times, just to try it out. Yes, it's a workout, a bit more than I want in the morning.
 
T

tonyE

Junior Audioholic
I usually grind on the Virtuoso at 0-4 and will usually get static. A friend of mine made a thing, a plug with stripped lamp wire, connected to the ground only to wave around inside the plastic container. I also can wave a solid steel table knife I have thru the grind and that gets rid of static quickly too. Usually I just busy myself with other preparations, it goes away fairly quickly but I suppose am in a generally more humid environment, too.

I found even on 0 on the Virtuoso was still having some issues pulling shots with my Flair (manual espresso thing), so got the 1Zpresso K-Plus set, which can grind much finer and many more adjustments across the range. I have what they call a blind shaker where after grinding, you place the shaker over your portafilter and pull up on a handle on a plug inside the cup, opening the bottom and dumping the coffee into the portafilter. A coupla drips of water on a full load of beans (only 35-40g). Not as fancy as an electric with a portafilter holder, but the Virtuoso doesn't have one either.

0-4 setting? Wow... that's really fine coffee.

I use Lavazza espresso beans, a Profitec 500 with manual flow control, a calibrated tamper and the Virtuoso.... put in about 19 gm for a double shot. For dosing I use a nice calibrated, 10gm capacity, spoon and over time I've become a "virtuoso" at eye balling the right amount.

I find that if I grind finer than 6, the flow of water really slows down: it takes about 40 secs to do the pull. And the coffee is dark and the crema gets a "burnt" color. No matter how adjust the flow, the grind is just too fine for my machine. I had the same experience with my previous machines too (Expobar and Gaggia).
 
Last edited:
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
0-4 setting? Wow... that's really fine coffee.

I use the green bag coffee from Costco (medium, roasted by Starbucks...), a Profitec 500 with manual flow control, a calibrated tamper and the Virtuoso.... put in about 19 gm for a double shot. For dosing I use a nice calibrated, 10gm capacity, spoon and over time I've become a "virtuoso" at eye balling the right amount.

I find that if I grind finer than 6, the flow of water really slows down: it takes about 40 secs to do the pull. And the coffee is dark and the crema gets a "burnt" color. No matter how adjust the flow, the grind is just too fine for my machine. I had the same experience with my previous machines too.
It always takes a while to find the balance of your filter/machine/grind/bean, doesn't it? Seems to be the story when I do my research on various espresso setups. I'm really a fan of my hand grinder when it comes to a finer grind, tho the Virtuoso has been fine for my other coffee making/machine purposes, other than for the Flair, for quite a while now (I did wear out a previous version/model of that grinder, the Maestro). My sister has a Virtuoso and finds it fine for their current espresso machine setup, tho.
 
T

tonyE

Junior Audioholic
It always takes a while to find the balance of your filter/machine/grind/bean, doesn't it? Seems to be the story when I do my research on various espresso setups. I'm really a fan of my hand grinder when it comes to a finer grind, tho the Virtuoso has been fine for my other coffee making/machine purposes, other than for the Flair, for quite a while now (I did wear out a previous version/model of that grinder, the Maestro). My sister has a Virtuoso and finds it fine for their current espresso machine setup, tho.
Notice I edited my post... I made an error... the green Costco bag is for drip, for espresso I use Lavazza beans. Although in a pinch, the Costco beans will make a reasonable, lighter, pull.

My last two machines, current and previous, are (were) E61 group heads, so they both work best on the same grind. I too wore out the previous Virtuoso. I think I must be on the 5th grinder ( first machine in '82 ).
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
@tonyE - stop buying Costco beans. They are likely long past 2-3 months of reasonable beans shelf life. If you can't roast yourself, find a local roaster. Get a bottomless portafilter to troubleshoot grinding/tamping issues.
Lastly, as I said before, I don't consider Barantza Virtuoso a suitable espresso grinder.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
For those who drink espresso, how tightly do you tamp the grind?

I have a cousin who actually posted about what's needed in order to make the best espresso, but he's a pompous a$$, so I won't provide a link.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
For those who drink espresso, how tightly do you tamp the grind?

I have a cousin who actually posted about what's needed in order to make the best espresso, but he's a pompous a$$, so I won't provide a link.
you should provide around 30 lbs of pressure to tamp your coffee properly for espresso. they sell "calibrated" tampers which are similar to torque tools, click then you reach the magical 30lbs of pressure.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
For those who drink espresso, how tightly do you tamp the grind?

I have a cousin who actually posted about what's needed in order to make the best espresso, but he's a pompous a$$, so I won't provide a link.
When I was first taught how to do my own espresso, I was told 40#. I practiced tamping on a bathroom scale, even.
Sometime more recently, less pressure has become accepted, though you can often see the reference of 30-40#. More interestingly to me is when I was working in the cafe, we did some experiments with super-light tamping which were very positive in results.
In the end, I still tamp a little more on the hard side, but as long as you form a cohesive puck which won’t just fall out when turned over briefly, you are good to go.

I have never used one of the calibrated tampers but know some Baristas that love them… while others loathe them. *shrugs
I use a nice steel Reg Barber Tamper. I replaced the bottom to fit my newer machine 4-5 years ago. The Aluminum handle is maybe 12 years old, I think.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I’ve almost purchased a similar hand grinder for those days I want a pour-over for special occasions… guests, Irish Coffee… both. ;)
My niece works for Grosche International. They also make very nice stove top espresso machines, french presses, tea pots and water bottles. Good quality products. Proceeds go towards clean drinking water in underdeveloped countries.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
you should provide around 30 lbs of pressure to tamp your coffee properly for espresso. they sell "calibrated" tampers which are similar to torque tools, click then you reach the magical 30lbs of pressure.
Is there such a thing as coffee infused snake oil? Where are the independent scientific tests showing that 30 lb tamping tastes better than 20 lbs? :D
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Is there such a thing as coffee infused snake oil? Where are the independent scientific tests showing that 30 lb tamping tastes better than 20 lbs? :D
the answer is (surprisingly) yes -
and for the common man:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
When I was first taught how to do my own espresso, I was told 40#. I practiced tamping on a bathroom scale, even.
Sometime more recently, less pressure has become accepted, though you can often see the reference of 30-40#. More interestingly to me is when I was working in the cafe, we did some experiments with super-light tamping which were very positive in results.
In the end, I still tamp a little more on the hard side, but as long as you form a cohesive puck which won’t just fall out when turned over briefly, you are good to go.

I have never used one of the calibrated tampers but know some Baristas that love them… while others loathe them. *shrugs
I use a nice steel Reg Barber Tamper. I replaced the bottom to fit my newer machine 4-5 years ago. The Aluminum handle is maybe 12 years old, I think.
As I understood what I have heard, tamping more causes the water to take more time in filtering through, so more is extracted from the ground beans. True? I have noticed a difference when I tamp the coffee I drink, rather than just pour it into the filter.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Do any of you use the Moca Pot XPresso Pump?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I love this thread! If arguing about sound quality from audio gear gets boring, switch to arguing about making coffee. And if arguing over making mere coffee gets boring, go straight to arguing about making espresso.
Is there such a thing as coffee infused snake oil? Where are the independent scientific tests showing that 30 lb tamping tastes better than 20 lbs? :D
Good coffee, as any coffee snob will be glad to tell you, contains no snake oil or any other contaminant. However, that leaves us open to the snake-oil-like effects from different grinders, brewers, espresso machines, etc.
@tonyE - stop buying Costco beans. They are likely long past 2-3 months of reasonable beans shelf life. If you can't roast yourself, find a local roaster.
I see I have taught you well :). The differences between fresh roasted or stale coffee are by far greater than any grinding or brewing method. In fact, I'd argue that coffee 2-3 months past it's roast date has been stale for at least a month or two. I like coffee beans no longer than 2-3 weeks past the roast date. That's why I roast my own. However, I have been able to buy good tasting roasted coffee older than 2-3 weeks. I don't know how commercial roasters do that, but I do admit it exists.
you should provide around 30 lbs of pressure to tamp your coffee properly for espresso. they sell "calibrated" tampers which are similar to torque tools, click then you reach the magical 30lbs of pressure.
I never knew such a thing as calibrated tampers existed. But I'm not too surprised. On Amazon, you can pay $10 for a simple tamper, or as much as $100 for a 'calibrated' tamper.

In defense of this apparent 'snake oil', many people, including myself, fail to understand just what the effect of steam pressure has when making espresso. My daughter, who worked as a barista for a while, once explained all this to me. (As a dedicated 'man splainer', I was extremely proud that my daughter could out man splain me.)

Coffee making commonly involves mixing ground coffee with hot water to extract the coffee flavors and cafeine. In this process, the amount of ground coffee and hot water obviously matter. But so does the length of time that they are mixed together. A lot of the coffee flavors are only partially soluble in hot water. As a result, the time of exposure also matters.

Espresso introduces a new variable, steam temperature at high pressure. Steam is sent through ground coffee at very high pressure, about 10 atmospheres. That's 147 pounds/in² (psi), or 1013 Kilo Pascals (KPa) for those metrically inclined. At 1 atmosphere pressure, steam is 100°C (212°F), but at 10 atmospheres steam is about 121°C (250°F). In fact, at this pressure it isn't steam, it's superheated water. This elevated temperature has a very large effect on the extraction of coffee flavors. The quantity and quality of extracted flavors are quite different. Some people love this difference and will pay good money for good espresso.

At 10 atmospheres pressure, there is a benefit from using coffee uniformly ground very fine – hence the need for different and more costly grinders. But, unless the grounds are packed firmly and evenly – into a so-called puck – the high pressure steam/water finds ways to channel through the puck without fully wetting and extracting all the grounds. There is a need to pack the grinds firmly enough to prevent channeling. But if you pack too firmly, you can also block good extraction. This packing, or tamping, is often how a good barista stands out from an amateur. And, I guess, this is why those calibrated tampers are now sold.

All this, the cost of high pressure espresso makers & espresso grinders, as well as the learning curve for tamping the puck is why I haven't bothered with making espresso at home. I like drip coffee made from fresh roasted coffee well enough. For others, YMMV.
 
Last edited:
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Is there such a thing as coffee infused snake oil? Where are the independent scientific tests showing that 30 lb tamping tastes better than 20 lbs? :D
I get where you are coming from to a certain extent. It is the Barista’s job to know and execute a proper tamp, among other things.
But in the complex world of coffee service, for many eliminating variables is a common path to passable quality. :rolleyes:

Far from scientific, I have experienced subtle changes in how one handles the grind-to-tamp process. This includes how “grooming” the portafilter affects the shot, how “settling” the grounds in the portafilter affects the shot, and how the tamp itself affects the shot. All of these can have an effect greater to the micro adjustment of particle size at the grinder or 1 second of extraction time.
Far from snake oil, these aspects of procedure and skill do impact the final product. However, one doesn’t necessarily need specialty tools to execute and specialty tools rarely promise to “lift a veil” in your enjoyment. (Though some of them are expensive, I haven’t seen anything so stupid as Audio snake oil in the places I’ve searched… though I’m sure somebody is selling such cr@p in the coffee-verse. ;) )
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
You people and your fancy grinders. This manual grinder is adjustable and works just fine. Counts towards my daily exercise routine at the same time!
I have this grinder and it works well. I just got tired of using it and bought an electric. Currently have the Bodum Bistro and I am very pleased with it.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
If people want to turn a handle and grind the beans manually, go for it. It gets the job done, no harm no foul . But with arthritis in my hand, turning some handle just doesn't get anymore.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top