How good of an audio setup do you need to be able to hear a difference between FLAC and MP3 320kbps?

Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
It comes down to:
a] musical selection. Some musical instrument combinations stress lossy codecs more. You could check with "j.j." for more info. https://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/jj.htm
(that's Audio Engineering Society - Pacific Northwest Section
AES Fellow James D. (jj) Johnston)
b] listener training. Start with low rate codecs and work up.

But do you really what to hear the differences?
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hmmm bot anyone? One post only....and a strange link....anyone try that? :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am in general agreement with most of the comments with the exception of the "bass is not as good" comment.
Not agreeable with that one but I think its been addressed.
@highfigh said it perfectly from where I sit:
A person with normal hearing may not notice the difference- it's not the ability to hear, it's the learned ability to listen for differences. Knowing what to listen for makes far more difference than ability to hear.

I remember a kerfuffle a year or so ago as the estate of Michael Jackson sued record producers who remastered and butchered (so they said) one of his recordings. I happened to have the "remastered" one so I sought out and purchased an original from before the remaster and did an A-B test to hear the butchery. I was confident I would hear the audio massacre after hearing the court testimony.

What I found was I couldn't really tell any difference at all. I mentioned it on this forum and several folks with very very sharp learned ability told me exactly where to listen and for what to listen for. By going back with instructions and time stamps I was able to pick out the differences and shortcomings of the remastered work. I could then hear the small differences. Without that careful guidance however, I simply couldn't pick it out.

So @highfigh has it nailed for me. It isn't pure ability to hear and it isn't the differences in the formats either. If there's a difference that's audible, trained ability to seek it out may show you the differences.
I have found that LPs sound very different from the digital versions and I know that part of/most of the reason is because the digital versions were remixed/remastered. These CDs weren't the earliest, but they were early enough that they don't sound as good as some of the better remix/remasters. I also know that when playing an LP, the cartridge and tonearm are subjected to physical forces that can greatly influence the sound but since my tonearm (Sony PS-X600 TT) has servos to counteract most of them, it's less of a problem. I also play bass and those frequencies have held my attention since I was <10 years old and I can definitely hear the difference between good and bad mixes or remasters- some remasters are great, but I wouldn't pay for others. Unfortunately, it's not easy to listen before buying new versions.

When listening to equipment that's being considered for purchase, I tell people that if the salesperson starts telling them what they'll hear, walk away or say "Stop- let me listen for myself". That's called 'pre-conditioning' and it usually leads to the customer deciding later that they don't actually like what they bought, but since what they heard agrees with what they were told, they paid for whatever it was. Amplifiers are less likely to sound very different, but when it comes to speakers and analog sources, I absolutely want the salesperson to shut up and let me listen. Many digital sources sound pretty similar, but some sound better- they're the ones that need scrutiny WRT the specs and how they handle the analog audio, if that will be used.

The one time I used cheap AV cables for something other than a VCR was when I bought my first DVD player- it sounded like crap and I wanted to return it and I was in the process of removing it from the cabinet when I saw the cables. I have never been one of the "AV cables need to be expensive and special" crowd, but I had a pair that had been used for my CD player which was in for service (lighting on the face had some problems, but it sounded fine), so I connected them and it sounded really good. I bagged all of the cheap cables and returned them to my AV distributor because I can't sell anything so bad with a clear conscience.

That said, I have a ReQuest music server that saves the ripped discs in two forms- .wav and MP3, of any resolution. The main reason it does this is so the .wav version can be listened to on-site but since it has a network drive, ports in the router can be opened to allow using their DDNS to listen to the music anywhere, as long as the listener is connected to the internet but all music can be saved as MP3 if the user wants a buttload of music on the server. Obviously, the MP3 will stream more easily if they're smaller files, but they can also be saved to a computer, USB, external HD or shared- the MP3 and .wav can be listened to by synching the tracks (like we used to when showing customers the differences between recordings made on a tape deck and the LP), making the levels match and switching between them- hte .wav files sound better when the rate is 256K or lower. For ambient music, 256K is fine, even 128K is fine if the music is playing in a place where ambient noise exists.

Gene interviewed a recording engineer in a podcast years ago and they discussed the losses in MP3 files when compared with the Redbook version- IIRC, a higher and lower rate MP3 were mixed together, one was was inverted and it allowed him to show what was missing- in some cases, so much of the sound was missing that it was easy to hear which song was playing.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So you don't feel compelled like me to buy more storage so you can convert your tunes library to lossless (FLAC). o_O
Would you be able to stop thinking about it if you hadn't? :) I just started off with lossless rips myself....and that took a screwed up knee that was needing a lot of couch time anyways....takes a while to rip a lot of cds.....but now I just rip 'em as soon as I buy one (and play the disc once in the machine to make sure no problems before I do that).
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So you don't feel compelled like me to buy more storage so you can convert your tunes library to lossless (FLAC). o_O
I haven't saved anything in a lossy format- I have found that it's far better to save analog or digital in a format that is as good as it can be before saving another version in a lower format.

I really don't enjoy ripping a large number of discs, whether analog or digital- never have. I don't like to make playlists, etc and if I want to hear something, I'll just play it or, in the case of Pandora, let it play random music that's based on the thumbs up/down I give the songs. At some point, I became tired of hearing what the ReQuest played when is Shuffle/Random mode because it doesn't have a huge hard drive- once I buy a phono preamp (can't play vinyl in the system as it is), I plan to save my LPs on a hard drive and if I have knee surgery, it will be the perfect time to do that.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
So you don't feel compelled like me to buy more storage so you can convert your tunes library to lossless (FLAC). o_O
@lovinthehd @highfigh
The OCD thing inside my head would never shut up if I had left my library as MP3's in all sorts of various conditions. Once I learned that MP3 is inherently lossy and had the potential to be audibly worse than many alternatives, I had to fix my library even if I couldn't point out specific problems with most of it. All I had to do was hear a few bad MP3s and I knew I needed to convert my entire library.

I have written about the effort many times here on the AH. I literally started over from scratch. I re-ripped all my CD's and even some Blu-Rays into a new library and storage structure. I saved them as AIFF's (Apples lossless and uncompressed file format) and as FLAC (the way the rest of the world does the same thing) simultaneously. That way if I ever part ways with Apple, I have my entire library ready to go in FLAC. I also built a RAID array and NAS storage setup so that no matter what device dies, I will not lose my music. I have had stuff fail, but never lost music or had to re-rip since. And all my original CD's are in the safe awaiting Armeggedon.

Like @lovinthehd , its easy peazy now. As soon as I buy a new CD down at the used CD store for a couple of bucks, I rip it and store it in just a few minutes. All done. And it sounds great. And inside my head that OCD voice has learned to shut-the-f@#$-up.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@lovinthehd @highfigh
The OCD thing inside my head would never shut up if I had left my library as MP3's in all sorts of various conditions. Once I learned that MP3 is inherently lossy and had the potential to be audibly worse than many alternatives, I had to fix my library even if I couldn't point out specific problems with most of it. All I had to do was hear a few bad MP3s and I knew I needed to convert my entire library.

I have written about the effort many times here on the AH. I literally started over from scratch. I re-ripped all my CD's and even some Blu-Rays into a new library and storage structure. I saved them as AIFF's (Apples lossless and uncompressed file format) and as FLAC (the way the rest of the world does the same thing) simultaneously. That way if I ever part ways with Apple, I have my entire library ready to go in FLAC. I also built a RAID array and NAS storage setup so that no matter what device dies, I will not lose my music. I have had stuff fail, but never lost music or had to re-rip since. And all my original CD's are in the safe awaiting Armeggedon.

Like @lovinthehd , its easy peazy now. As soon as I buy a new CD down at the used CD store for a couple of bucks, I rip it and store it in just a few minutes. All done. And it sounds great. And inside my head that OCD voice has learned to shut-the-f@#$-up.
It's 'CDO'. :)
 
WookieGR

WookieGR

Full Audioholic
After having spent several months in my newly built audio room, I can say with all certainty that the differences between lossless and compressed aren't heard as you would expect. It's in the level of harshness and fatigue experience at loud volumes and long listening sessions. An HD audio version of almost anything can very easily be played at any volume and sound just as pleasant, but the MP3 version hurts the ears without being able to distinguish what specifically is different, if anything. We can crank LP's and HD Audio with no fatigue or strain but when we switch to MP3 we have to cut back on the volume because it's strained. At regular listening volumes or even as background music it's not likely most people with even mid to higher end systems will know what format it is.

Of course, results will vary depending on the DAC, too.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
After having spent several months in my newly built audio room, I can say with all certainty that the differences between lossless and compressed aren't heard as you would expect. It's in the level of harshness and fatigue experience at loud volumes and long listening sessions. An HD audio version of almost anything can very easily be played at any volume and sound just as pleasant, but the MP3 version hurts the ears without being able to distinguish what specifically is different, if anything. We can crank LP's and HD Audio with no fatigue or strain but when we switch to MP3 we have to cut back on the volume because it's strained. At regular listening volumes or even as background music it's not likely most people with even mid to higher end systems will know what format it is.
What bitrate mp3s are those?
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
The DAC and the pre-amp play a major part in the reproduction and can have a dramatic effect on the final sound output. I run two independent stereo sound systems both running a pre-amp, mono bloc [single channel] amplification . The sound is total different in both systems, BUT, the the question is, "is there a difference between MP3 and FLAC, If there is I can't hear it. And I'm very picky, when it comes to my reproduction systems.

Off cause if your only running an AVR base system, Then you can forget all about, any difference. It's going to sound crap which ever MP3 or FLAC your using

Something total different, our friend with the knee problem that took a screwed up knee that was needing a lot of couch time Whatever you do, DON'T go for a knee reconstruction, they never work. I had one done close to 30 years ago and it's still giving me problems. Very few reconstruction's work and restore the joint back to a pre-injury time.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Something total different, our friend with the knee problem that took a screwed up knee that was needing a lot of couch time Whatever you do, DON'T go for a knee reconstruction, they never work. I had one done close to 30 years ago and it's still giving me problems. Very few reconstruction's work and restore the joint back to a pre-injury time.
It's the quad tendon- I stepped off of a ladder, expecting my folding platform to be there and when it wasn't, I had less than a second for all of the decisions regarding how to land best to cross my mind. When I landed with full weight on my left leg, I dislocated my left kneecap, partially tore and stretched the quad tendon. When people would ask how I did it, I told them "I was proving that I don't actually have cat-like reflexes".

The Dr didn't think an MRI was necessary, but he was dead wrong. When I went in for the consultation after the MRI, he said "It's a lot worse than I thought". No shyte! He would have KNOWN its condition if he had ordered the MRI, but Noooooo! He knew best and that has wasted a lot of time for me. Based on his bad diagnosis, the physical therapist had me doing things I shouldn't have been and now, the Ortho sturgeon wants me to consult with someone who's involved in sports medicine because it's a different specialty from his, which is knee replacement.

I know quite a few people who have had knee replacements and they have gone very well. If your reconstruction involved the tendons & ligaments, is there any chance that newer techniques could help?
 
VoidX

VoidX

Audioholic Intern
Replying to the title of the topic: it's never about the system, that's the conclusion of my 90-people test on their own systems. There was no correlation at all between system quality and the results of compression blind test. You can try the software here (look for Nuance), it converts WAV files to common encodings in real-time. About 10% of people could pass MP3 320 (non-joint stereo).
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Something total different, our friend with the knee problem that took a screwed up knee that was needing a lot of couch time Whatever you do, DON'T go for a knee reconstruction, they never work. I had one done close to 30 years ago and it's still giving me problems. Very few reconstruction's work and restore the joint back to a pre-injury time.
I'm sorry to read about your knee problems. Long lasting pain is always very tough to endure.

But your words, "Whatever you do, DON'T go for a knee reconstruction, they never work" seems extreme. Do you mean to say that knee reconstruction surgery has never worked for 30 years, and despite that, this surgery is still being done now? Making conclusions requires at least some data to back it up. Making an extraordinary conclusion like yours requires some extraordinary data to back it up. Are you serious? Or are you grouchy because of your chronic knee pain?

Let's take this further. You've offered unsolicited free medical advice over the internet. Again, are you serious?!? Never offer medical advice over the internet, solicited or not. Are you a licensed physician? Or are you an unhappy patient? If you are a licensed physician, I wouldn't need to explain why you should never offer unsolicited free medical advice over the internet. That leaves the unhappy patient explanation.

To make matters worse, your advice seems to be based on your own experience nearly 30 years ago. Can you say anything useful about knee replacement or reconstruction surgery as it's presently done in Australia or the USA?

I am not an orthopedic surgeon, nor even a physician. Most readers here are not. I also think most readers here know enough to ignore advice like yours. But I am worried that just one reader, who might already be hesitating about needed knee surgery, might read your post and decide to avoid the surgery based on your outcome.
 
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H

Hobbit

Audioholic Chief
I don’t notice much of a difference so I’m wondering whether it’s worth it to re-download my 320kbps MP3s as FLAC. I don’t have the greatest audio equipment (above average) but someday I’d like to upgrade if I got the money https://9apps.ooo/. Keep in mind I’m not doing this for archival purposes or anything, I just like listening to my music in the best quality I can get with the equipment I have.
IMO, the recording quality is more important aspect. The best produced music will sound better 96Kbps than the FLAC on a poorly produced album.

Many years ago I tried to tell the difference between mp3, mp3 bit rate, and FLAC. I tried headphones and sitting in the sweet spot in the room. Once I was above 196 I was not consistently able to tell the difference, 320 even less so. I wanted to believe I could, and even convinced myself at times. However, the more I listened the more I realized it the stats didn't work out after enough listenings. After a while I just went 320 and stuck with it.
 
H

Hobbit

Audioholic Chief
Replying to the title of the topic: it's never about the system, that's the conclusion of my 90-people test on their own systems. There was no correlation at all between system quality and the results of compression blind test. You can try the software here (look for Nuance), it converts WAV files to common encodings in real-time. About 10% of people could pass MP3 320 (non-joint stereo).
But could those 10% pass 1000 times? I've aced those tests on some days... but utterly blew them on others.

Kind of like the X-filed: I want to believe.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm sorry to read about your knee problems. Long lasting pain is always very tough to endure.

But your words, "Whatever you do, DON'T go for a knee reconstruction, they never work" seems extreme. Do you mean to say that knee reconstruction surgery has never worked for 30 years, and despite that, this surgery is still being done now? Making conclusions requires at least some data to back it up. Making an extreme conclusion like yours requires some extreme data to back it up. Are you serious? Or are you grouchy because of your chronic knee pain?

Let's take this further. You've offered unsolicited free medical advice over the internet. Again, are you serious?!? Never offer medical advice over the internet, solicited or not. Are you a licensed physician? Or are you an unhappy patient? If you are a licensed physician, I wouldn't need to explain why you should never offer unsolicited free medical advice over the internet. That leaves the unhappy patient explanation.

To make matters worse, your advice seems to be based on your own experience nearly 30 years ago. Can you say anything useful about knee replacement or reconstruction surgery as it's presently done in Australia or the USA?

I am neither an orthopedic surgeon, or even a physician. Most readers here are also not. I think most readers here know enough to ignore advice like yours. But I am worried that just one reader, who might already be hesitating about needed knee surgery, might read your post and decide to avoid the surgery based on your outcome.
And here I was waiting for someone to blast him on: "Off cause if your only running an AVR base system, Then you can forget all about, any difference. It's going to sound crap which ever MP3 or FLAC your using"

I know it's bad grammar, but it's little bit of substance is technically worth zero, and we should stand up and flag it so others won't think we agree.

Statements without data and facts are just Opinions, and just like an axxhole, everyone's got one.

Happy New Year ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
And here I was waiting for someone to blast him on: "Off cause if your only running an AVR base system, Then you can forget all about, any difference. It's going to sound crap which ever MP3 or FLAC your using"

I know it's bad grammar, but it's little bit of substance is technically worth zero, and we should stand up and flag it so others won't think we agree.

Statements without data and facts are just Opinions, and just like an axxhole, everyone's got one.

Happy New Year ;)
I was waiting for someone else to take a shot :) He has some strange audiophile type beliefs.
 
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