Wanting to take the next step to better sound

[TheMadHatter]

Hello Audiophiles!

I'm a beginner who inherited a speaker system when I bought my house. Specifically, 2 Speakercraft AIM8 THREE as the front channels (in-ceiling) and 2 Speakercraft CRS 6 (I think), also in-ceiling mounted as the rear channel. I also have a Sonance D8 subwoofer behind the listening area. I had a 55" TV and above it, a Martin Logan Motion 50XT center channel (gift from wife) which never really sounded good (more on that later). Recently I upgraded to a Sony A95K 65" so the center channel had to be taken down and I use the TV as the center now. All speakers are being driven by my Marantz SR7011 which I thought was 125W/c but NO, It's more like 85W/c with all my speakers driven, a fact I didn't know about until I was looking into my 50XT just now, realizing it can take up to 300W!! No wonder it sounded muted... doh.

Linked is the forward facing view, and the side view with speaker to listener distances in case that's helpful. The family listens to Spotify Connect for music but I really want to tune the audio environment for better movie watching at night.

1 - It seems all 5.1 systems have the front channels at listener height, yet all my speakers are in-ceiling. What can I do to tune them for more accurate sound while watching movies? Or should they be replaced with something else?

2 - Since my Marantz is only putting out 90-ish watts per channel, should I upgrade to a SR5015? Or just go for power amps and use the pre-outs?

3 - If I use the pre-outs and go through a power amp to drive the front channels, will they change volume with the normal AVR volume or do I have to also change volume on the amps themselves?

4 - Am I right in assuming the Motion 50XT sounded muted because I was under-driving it?

Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

 

[Bucknekked]

Hello Audiophiles!

I'm a beginner who inherited a speaker system when I bought my house. Specifically, 2 Speakercraft AIM8 THREE as the front channels (in-ceiling) and 2 Speakercraft CRS 6 (I think), also in-ceiling mounted as the rear channel. I also have a Sonance D8 subwoofer behind the listening area. I had a 55" TV and above it, a Martin Logan Motion 50XT center channel (gift from wife) which never really sounded good (more on that later). Recently I upgraded to a Sony A95K 65" so the center channel had to be taken down and I use the TV as the center now. All speakers are being driven by my Marantz SR7011 which I thought was 125W/c but NO, It's more like 85W/c with all my speakers driven, a fact I didn't know about until I was looking into my 50XT just now, realizing it can take up to 300W!! No wonder it sounded muted... doh.

Linked is the forward facing view, and the side view with speaker to listener distances in case that's helpful. The family listens to Spotify Connect for music but I really want to tune the audio environment for better movie watching at night.

1 - It seems all 5.1 systems have the front channels at listener height, yet all my speakers are in-ceiling. What can I do to tune them for more accurate sound while watching movies? Or should they be replaced with something else?

2 - Since my Marantz is only putting out 90-ish watts per channel, should I upgrade to a SR5015? Or just go for power amps and use the pre-outs?

3 - If I use the pre-outs and go through a power amp to drive the front channels, will they change volume with the normal AVR volume or do I have to also change volume on the amps themselves?

4 - Am I right in assuming the Motion 50XT sounded muted because I was under-driving it?

Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

@TheMadHatter
Welcome to the AH. Lots of opinions here.
Your setup looks visually appealing but I can see where there would be audio shortcomings.
One aspect of HT and audio systems is the Wife Acceptance Factor (the WAF) and it is a non-audio problem that complicates a lot of home setups. What will the WAF do in this case if major expenses are recommended/desired? What would the WAF say about floor standing speakers and wires?

Your setup solves a lot of problems with your room layout (like all those windows and open areas but produces others. You are correct, for "best" sound out of movies etc for dialogue, you would ideally want your center channel speaker (and L and R) driving right at ear level. Center channel dialogue is one of the chief beefs about many a home theater setup.

I think before investing anything, you should make a list of what you want to fix. What about your existing system isn't up to your standards? You won't know if you've fixed anything if you don't have specific shortcomings to address. It would also be handy to know the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at the listening chair position. A cheap DB meter from the old Radio Shack does the job just fine. Are you getting enough sound during your use of the system to meet your ears needs? That DB meter will also help tell you very quickly whether you are under powered or not.

The second thing to consider is budget. Do you have a budget? Audio can get really pricey when you have 10 or 15 guys on the AH making recommendations.

I will shut up now and let others chime in. This stuff can be incredibly fun to do. Expensive but fun.
You have a great looking room and setup as it is. That usually means $$ to make it better

 

[TheMadHatter]

@TheMadHatter
Welcome to the AH. Lots of opinions here.
Your setup looks visually appealing but I can see where there would be audio shortcomings.
One aspect of HT and audio systems is the Wife Acceptance Factor (the WAF) and it is a non-audio problem that complicates a lot of home setups. What will the WAF do in this case if major expenses are recommended/desired? What would the WAF say about floor standing speakers and wires?

Your setup solves a lot of problems with your room layout (like all those windows and open areas but produces others. You are correct, for "best" sound out of movies etc for dialogue, you would ideally want your center channel speaker (and L and R) driving right at ear level. Center channel dialogue is one of the chief beefs about many a home theater setup.

I think before investing anything, you should make a list of what you want to fix. What about your existing system isn't up to your standards? You won't know if you've fixed anything if you don't have specific shortcomings to address. It would also be handy to know the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) at the listening chair position. A cheap DB meter from the old Radio Shack does the job just fine. Are you getting enough sound during your use of the system to meet your ears needs? That DB meter will also help tell you very quickly whether you are under powered or not.

The second thing to consider is budget. Do you have a budget? Audio can get really pricey when you have 10 or 15 guys on the AH making recommendations.

I will shut up now and let others chime in. This stuff can be incredibly fun to do. Expensive but fun.
You have a great looking room and setup as it is. That usually means $$ to make it better

Thank you for your thoughtful response! Yes the wife is NOT an audiophile so I could only get away with upgrading the ceiling speakers to something more directional, if that's a thing. Otherwise as you stated the room is beautiful and she'll want it staying that way. It's my fault really, when she moved in before we were married I had a pair of electrostatics on the floor that she hated and I think she's still scarred.

What volume level do you suggest to measure DB levels?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your thoughtful response! Yes the wife is NOT an audiophile so I could only get away with upgrading the ceiling speakers to something more directional, if that's a thing. Otherwise as you stated the room is beautiful and she'll want it staying that way. It's my fault really, when she moved in before we were married I had a pair of electrostatics on the floor that she hated and I think she's still scarred.

What volume level do you suggest to measure DB levels?

You absolutely can not build a home HT round ceiling speakers. Ceiling speakers can be used for Atmos ceiling channels and nothing else. As long as you are fixated on that design improvement will be impossible. You can't fight physics.

 

[MrBoat]

Hello Audiophiles!

I'm a beginner who inherited a speaker system when I bought my house. Specifically, 2 Speakercraft AIM8 THREE as the front channels (in-ceiling) and 2 Speakercraft CRS 6 (I think), also in-ceiling mounted as the rear channel. I also have a Sonance D8 subwoofer behind the listening area. I had a 55" TV and above it, a Martin Logan Motion 50XT center channel (gift from wife) which never really sounded good (more on that later). Recently I upgraded to a Sony A95K 65" so the center channel had to be taken down and I use the TV as the center now. All speakers are being driven by my Marantz SR7011 which I thought was 125W/c but NO, It's more like 85W/c with all my speakers driven, a fact I didn't know about until I was looking into my 50XT just now, realizing it can take up to 300W!! No wonder it sounded muted... doh.

Linked is the forward facing view, and the side view with speaker to listener distances in case that's helpful. The family listens to Spotify Connect for music but I really want to tune the audio environment for better movie watching at night.

1 - It seems all 5.1 systems have the front channels at listener height, yet all my speakers are in-ceiling. What can I do to tune them for more accurate sound while watching movies? Or should they be replaced with something else?

2 - Since my Marantz is only putting out 90-ish watts per channel, should I upgrade to a SR5015? Or just go for power amps and use the pre-outs?

3 - If I use the pre-outs and go through a power amp to drive the front channels, will they change volume with the normal AVR volume or do I have to also change volume on the amps themselves?

4 - Am I right in assuming the Motion 50XT sounded muted because I was under-driving it?

Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

Get potent stand mounts and others and put them away when not in use. Back in the '60s, the movie screen, projector and sound system often lived in a closet and came out when movie night or guest parties happened. I used to keep my speakers in the closet when my children were toddlers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hello Audiophiles!

I'm a beginner who inherited a speaker system when I bought my house. Specifically, 2 Speakercraft AIM8 THREE as the front channels (in-ceiling) and 2 Speakercraft CRS 6 (I think), also in-ceiling mounted as the rear channel. I also have a Sonance D8 subwoofer behind the listening area. I had a 55" TV and above it, a Martin Logan Motion 50XT center channel (gift from wife) which never really sounded good (more on that later). Recently I upgraded to a Sony A95K 65" so the center channel had to be taken down and I use the TV as the center now. All speakers are being driven by my Marantz SR7011 which I thought was 125W/c but NO, It's more like 85W/c with all my speakers driven, a fact I didn't know about until I was looking into my 50XT just now, realizing it can take up to 300W!! No wonder it sounded muted... doh.

Linked is the forward facing view, and the side view with speaker to listener distances in case that's helpful. The family listens to Spotify Connect for music but I really want to tune the audio environment for better movie watching at night.

1 - It seems all 5.1 systems have the front channels at listener height, yet all my speakers are in-ceiling. What can I do to tune them for more accurate sound while watching movies? Or should they be replaced with something else?

2 - Since my Marantz is only putting out 90-ish watts per channel, should I upgrade to a SR5015? Or just go for power amps and use the pre-outs?

3 - If I use the pre-outs and go through a power amp to drive the front channels, will they change volume with the normal AVR volume or do I have to also change volume on the amps themselves?

4 - Am I right in assuming the Motion 50XT sounded muted because I was under-driving it?

Thank you for any assistance you can provide!

All channels driven rating isn't particularly meaningful or useful and most avrs are just rated on a 2ch basis in any case. The watts aren't used unless your use of the volume control demands it....most of the time you're using only a handful of watts for most situations. Speaker max wattage ratings don't mean a lot either, there's not even a standard definition that all use. You can use something like this to estimate your amp needs http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

1. Speakers don't belong in the ceiling for a base layer of 5.1 IMO, maybe good for Atmos speakers. Maybe in-walls for 5.1, but not in-ceiling. Stand alone speakers give you more options either way.

2. The 5015 isn't as powerful as your 7011, so that would be a downgrade on the amp section. Most avrs are more similar than different, only maybe 2dB difference among the majority of them....but having one with pre-outs is my preference so as to have flexibility with external amps (or powered speakers).

3. Yes, you would need to incorporate the amps so that volume is equal with your other channels, and controlled by a single master volume control (running Audyssey or manually calibrating will get this done).

4. No.

 

[TheMadHatter]

Thank you everyone for your input, and while disappointing that my options are limited due to the location of the speakers, I get it.

Before I truly put this to bed, what if I upgraded my FL and FR to something like this?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Upgrading speakers will have a bit of a difference overall in the system.

Keep in mind that you can't likely use your TV as the 'center' channel. If you can't place a proper center channel in the room, then the best course is to just not use one and instead setup that AV receiver as a 4.1 system. Tell it you have no center channel.

This is one of those things I emphasize... A theater is a pretty purpose built space for optimal sound and video quality. Using a family room and optimizing it as a family room first, means you really don't have a theater at all. You have a TV and surround sound. Just acknowledging that as reality is a good starting point. Because you know you are going to be making some significant compromises overall and that's just the way of things.

Those saying you can't get improvements are wrong. They should be telling you the options, and what you listed is certainly one of them. There are others as well.
Triad for example, offers several and are a reputable manufacturer: https://www.snapav.com/shop/en/snapav/search/home-theater

Providing more power can make playback louder, if the speakers support it, and if you actually find that things aren't loud enough. But, calibration of the AV receiver matters more. If you're otherwise happy with the volume you are getting, then learn how to raise and lower the channels and add/remove channels from the setup that you have and it can all work a little bit better.

 

[-Jim-]

Putting Lipstick on a Pig doesn't make it pretty; and putting all the "ear" level speakers in the Ceiling doesn't make this a Home Theater setup. Better speakers should improve the sound quality, but that's not enough to make it a Home Theater.

Sorry, but it's as @TLS Guy said. Slight compromises in speaker position can be tolerated, especially surrounds, but the LCRs need to be in front of you near ear level when seated.

By the way, I noticed the TV is way too high as well. Sticking them above fireplaces does that. The center of the screen should be about eye level when seated.

I'd suggest you look for another room to setup as a Home Theater and leave this one to the Misses. I know from experience that the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) drives much of the room layout (especially if she works with a "Home Decorator" who knows nothing about a Home Theater). That was one of the reasons our 5.1 Family Room setup is what it is: and I did (mostly) what I wanted in the 5.2.4 Dolby Atmos Games Room. (I also have a 7.1 setup in the basement "man cave / storage room" as well. Yes I'm an Audioholic, and know I have a problem... )

It's you system and your $$ - so do what will make you happy, but don't expect this to sound like a good a Home Theater when your LCRs are stuck in the ceiling.

I hope this is helpful. Merry Christmas.

 

[Wardog555]

I'll refer you to a document which stipulates the speaker positions and then you decide whether you're willing to adjust your setup and or room configuration to achieve accuracy.

Salesforce

dolby.my.salesforce.com

If you focus on the speaker angles from the main listening position. You will have a significant improvement from your existing speaker positions.

You can use the existing ceiling speakers for Dolby atmos and dts x. As long as you're seated in the middle of them.
And lower the television as there's no circumstances over a fireplace is suitable unless you raise up the seating for comfortable viewing.

Best of luck!

 

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind that you can't likely use your TV as the 'center' channel. If you can't place a proper center channel in the room, then the best course is to just not use one and instead setup that AV receiver as a 4.1 system. Tell it you have no center channel.

Someone else recently posted about this tv, it can be used as center (it uses two actuators on the screen surface apparently turning the screen into a "speaker"). Not sure it should be used as center, tho.....

 

[BMXTRIX]

Someone else recently posted about this tv, it can be used as center (it uses two actuators on the screen surface apparently turning the screen into a "speaker"). Not sure it should be used as center, tho.....

Geez! That's a really nice feature to include. Even if it may be less than ideal, it's not like Sony doesn't make speakers and isn't capable of delivering something decent.

It would certainly be one of those situations where I would try it with it and try it without it and see what sounds best.

Ultra short throw projectors desperately need a feature like this!

 

[lovinthehd]

Geez! That's a really nice feature to include. Even if it may be less than ideal, it's not like Sony doesn't make speakers and isn't capable of delivering something decent.

It would certainly be one of those situations where I would try it with it and try it without it and see what sounds best.

Ultra short throw projectors desperately need a feature like this!

I think it might depend on your spl levels....but would love to see a test

 

[TheMadHatter]

Someone else recently posted about this tv, it can be used as center (it uses two actuators on the screen surface apparently turning the screen into a "speaker"). Not sure it should be used as center, tho.....

For sure it's not the best center in the world but honestly it's really decent. Speech is super clear and it places the audio well in the room based on the source from the image. I'm happy enough with it and now that the Martin Logan is gone I can actually close the doors to hide the TV which is a huge bonus.

 

[lovinthehd]

For sure it's not the best center in the world but honestly it's really decent. Speech is super clear and it places the audio well in the room based on the source from the image. I'm happy enough with it and now that the Martin Logan is gone I can actually close the doors to hide the TV which is a huge bonus.

If it works for you....what kind of spl can it reach without excessive distortion?

 

[TheMadHatter]

If it works for you....what kind of spl can it reach without excessive distortion?

Aaand we've just reached my limits of knowledge. I don't have a mic for SPL measurements but if it's not too expensive I could get one to find out. The only mic I've ever dealt with is the Audessey that came with my Marantz

 

[-Jim-]

You can get a free SPL App for your smartphone. It's accurate enough for this job.

 

[lovinthehd]

Aaand we've just reached my limits of knowledge. I don't have a mic for SPL measurements but if it's not too expensive I could get one to find out. The only mic I've ever dealt with is the Audessey that came with my Marantz

Don't particularly need one, altho a measurement mic can become very handy if you want to go down that rabbit hole....a phone app spl meter can give a close enough estimate....