LFE Only Subwoofer Recommendations?

[dlasater]

I have grown up as an audiophile with SVS and now its time to upgrade again. I am interested in the PSA TV3613, but wanted to get this group's recommendation for my configuration.

I have a dedicated “media room” used for listening to music (40%) and watching movies (60%), but I am most critical of the sound for music. The room is roughly 18.5’ (front to back) x 13.5’ x 9’ ceilings and is acoustically treated (~2 ms pretty flat to 80 Hz). My 7.3.6 system consists of the following equipment:

Pre-amp: Lyngdorf MP-40 (16 assignable channels)
Amps: McIntosh MC462 2-channel (LR), Rotel RB1590 2-channel (C), Yamaha MX-A5200 11-channel (Surrounds)
Speakers: Bowers & Wilkins 803-D4 (LR), Bowers & Wilkins HTM81-D4 (C), B&W surrounds and Atmos
Subs: SVS PC-4000 x3
Transducers: Crowson Level 3 system (4 actuators)
I use REW for speaker/sub time alignment and run RoomPerfect room correction on the Lyngdorf.

I am not a bass head. I want the sound, including the bass, to be immersive and as tight as possible. The Crowson actuators are only used for movies, not music. Two (2) of the SVS subs are configured as “stereo subs” at the front left and front right on the Left and Right channels. These subs are ported, but I am going to try them in “sealed mode” to see if I can get them a little tighter, which means I will probably lose some bass output at the low end while watching movies. The third SVS sub plays the LFE channel only with no redirected bass, and therefore is not used with music. The single SVS sub with its 13.5” driver on the LFE channel just doesn’t have the capacity to play deep clean base (even when combined with the redirected bass in the LR channels). The transducers have helped with the low frequency extension.

I was originally going to upgrade to the SVS PB16-Ultra, but have read some reviews that have sent me down the road of checking other options. Hence, my interest in the PSA TV3613 taking the responsibility of cleaning up my movie watching immersion. I am limited to about 22” in width at the back left corner of the room.

I don’t want boomy bass and I want to convert my existing front left and right speakers to “sealed” mode to eliminate some port noise, so I wonder if I should go with a sealed sub for LFE, like the PSA S3613, especially considering I have the transducers that provide a deep bass effect. It seems like my needs are more fitting with a ported sub, but I value your input and recommendations.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have grown up as an audiophile with SVS and now its time to upgrade again. I am interested in the PSA TV3613, but wanted to get this group's recommendation for my configuration.

I have a dedicated “media room” used for listening to music (40%) and watching movies (60%), but I am most critical of the sound for music. The room is roughly 18.5’ (front to back) x 13.5’ x 9’ ceilings and is acoustically treated (~2 ms pretty flat to 80 Hz). My 7.3.6 system consists of the following equipment:

Pre-amp: Lyngdorf MP-40 (16 assignable channels)
Amps: McIntosh MC462 2-channel (LR), Rotel RB1590 2-channel (C), Yamaha MX-A5200 11-channel (Surrounds)
Speakers: Bowers & Wilkins 803-D4 (LR), Bowers & Wilkins HTM81-D4 (C), B&W surrounds and Atmos
Subs: SVS PC-4000 x3
Transducers: Crowson Level 3 system (4 actuators)
I use REW for speaker/sub time alignment and run RoomPerfect room correction on the Lyngdorf.

I am not a bass head. I want the sound, including the bass, to be immersive and as tight as possible. The Crowson actuators are only used for movies, not music. Two (2) of the SVS subs are configured as “stereo subs” at the front left and front right on the Left and Right channels. These subs are ported, but I am going to try them in “sealed mode” to see if I can get them a little tighter, which means I will probably lose some bass output at the low end while watching movies. The third SVS sub plays the LFE channel only with no redirected bass, and therefore is not used with music. The single SVS sub with its 13.5” driver on the LFE channel just doesn’t have the capacity to play deep clean base (even when combined with the redirected bass in the LR channels). The transducers have helped with the low frequency extension.

I was originally going to upgrade to the SVS PB16-Ultra, but have read some reviews that have sent me down the road of checking other options. Hence, my interest in the PSA TV3613 taking the responsibility of cleaning up my movie watching immersion. I am limited to about 22” in width at the back left corner of the room.

I don’t want boomy bass and I want to convert my existing front left and right speakers to “sealed” mode to eliminate some port noise, so I wonder if I should go with a sealed sub for LFE, like the PSA S3613, especially considering I have the transducers that provide a deep bass effect. It seems like my needs are more fitting with a ported sub, but I value your input and recommendations.

You seem to have a few misconceptions.

The first is that you should NEVER use subs in stereo configuration, they should always be mono. The reason is to substantially reduce room modes. We do not localize at sub frequencies, so mono for subs is fine.

The next is that you are perpetuating the myth that sealed enclosures are 'tighter' then ported ones. That is absolutely not true. Sealed subs are not non resonant, and in fact are very prone to a ripple response before the 12 db. roll off. Even worse is to think that plugging a port is a good thing to do. Drivers are designed to work optimally in a ported or sealed configuration. The next issue is even if a driver has Thiel/small parameters in the region where it can be conceived in a ported or sealed configuration, then the optimal box sizes will be different. So if you seal the ports, then the driver will be misaligned in a box that is too big!

The next problem is what is conceived as bass, and I am about to do another post on this. But very little of what you actually perceive as bass is actually in the range of subs. So called tight bass that is percussive, is actually the correct alignment of frequencies all the way from 20 Hz to around 7 KHz. This is especially true of drums.

In this area the tuning of the front speakers, and actually all speakers is equally important. In this case I suspect your lack of tight bass is actually due to your B & W speakers rather than anything else. For some reason B & W seem to more often than not willfully mistune their speakers in the bass. It would appear that your speakers are no exception. I did manage to find an FR of your speakers from Home theater magazine. Unfortunately I do not seem to be able to copy the graph, probably due to reasons of copyright. However there is a 6db peak centered on 100 Hz. That alone would preclude tight bass.

After 70 odd years of designing and building speakers, I can tell you that getting sound to really be like being there is very elusive. As far as the that tight bass issue, that is highly elusive, but what it takes is essentially non resonant reproduction known a aperiodic, with tight alignment in time an phase of the whole percussive wave. For a kick drum for instance, everything has to be perfectly timed from 50 Hz to 7 KHz. Most of the sound of a drum is well out of sub range. The orchestral tympani is not actually lower than 70 Hz. The kick drum is no lower than somewhere between 40 to 50 Hz.

You solutions are far too simplistic. Life is far more complicated than that.

 

[shadyJ]

I agree with some of what TLSguy said but not all of it. The Lyngdorf processor has an extremely powerful EQ system that almost makes whatever your speakers and subs are a moot point so long as they have adequate headroom, at least in low frequencies. It's strange to see that so much of its potential is wasted in the way you have your system set up. If an installer set your system up like that, you should knock them over the head with a tire iron. A professional should know better.

Firstly, change all subs to use the LFE output and high-pass filter the B&W speakers, and then calibrate the system accordingly. The speakers shouldn't be producing any port noise because the port shouldn't be in use at all in a three-subwoofer system. You are missing the big advantage of a multi-sub setup, and that is to get rid of room modes. With that many low-frequency sources, the Lyngdorf processor should be able to get a very flat and linear low-frequency response that is corrected not just in the frequency domain but also time domain. Buying another brand of sub isn't going to help you here, because if you are using your processor correctly, it should sound the same at the end of the calibration. The SVS subs are more than adequate to conform to the Lyngdorf's calibration. Don't bother sealing those subs- all that will do is cost you headroom and it won't improve the sound.

Your problem isn't the components but rather poor use of a very sophisticated system. You should educate yourself on how to set the system up properly. Audioholics has a lot of resources that can help you here, such as this article. Look through our articles on subwoofer setup, there is a lot of useful information in there.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree with some of what TLSguy said but not all of it. The Lyngdorf processor has an extremely powerful EQ system that almost makes whatever your speakers and subs are a moot point so long as they have adequate headroom, at least in low frequencies. It's strange to see that so much of its potential is wasted in the way you have your system set up. If an installer set your system up like that, you should knock them over the head with a tire iron. A professional should know better.

Firstly, change all subs to use the LFE output and high-pass filter the B&W speakers, and then calibrate the system accordingly. The speakers shouldn't be producing any port noise because the port shouldn't be in use at all in a three-subwoofer system. You are missing the big advantage of a multi-sub setup, and that is to get rid of room modes. With that many low-frequency sources, the Lyngdorf processor should be able to get a very flat and linear low-frequency response that is corrected not just in the frequency domain but also time domain. Buying another brand of sub isn't going to help you here, because if you are using your processor correctly, it should sound the same at the end of the calibration. The SVS subs are more than adequate to conform to the Lyngdorf's calibration. Don't bother sealing those subs- all that will do is cost you headroom and it won't improve the sound.

Your problem isn't the components but rather poor use of a very sophisticated system. You should educate yourself on how to set the system up properly. Audioholics has a lot of resources that can help you here, such as this article. Look through our articles on subwoofer setup, there is a lot of useful information in there.

I agree completely. The way he has his system set up makes no sense at all. I would send the LFE and sub to his subs, and if that FR of those B & Ws is correct set the crossover at 100 Hz.

 

[dlasater]

Thanks for your replies sans recommendations responsive to my post. I apologize if my goal wasn't clear enough. After reading the posts above, a butter knife wasn't sharp enough to slit my throat, hence my ability to respond. You all put in a lot of effort, and I appreciate that. And, I tend to agree with not using the ported sub in the sealed setting as optioned by SVS, but thought I would give it a try, which I did and was not impressed. I have previously had all three subs combined on the LFE channel (I'm not a complete idiot) that were aligned via REW, the Lyngdorf processor, and/or miniDSP.

However, Steinway-Lyngdorf, and many AVForums power users, recommend installing "front" subs on the right and left channels (

), particularly for music listening, so I thought I would give it a try. Note that my original post states that I am most critical of music listening in my system and it makes sense that with subs on the left and right channels you would have in essence four-way LCR speakers. In this Lyngdorf-recommended sub configuration, time aligned with the left and right speakers, music sounds terrific (after reducing the gain on the subs a couple of dBs). I might have gotten lucky with reflections in my well-treated room, but I think "NEVER" might have been a little strong.

I really just wanted recommendations from this group to get a little more clarity, oomph, and extension in the LFE channel for movie watching to bridge the frequency gap between the 20Hz drop off in SPL from the SVS sub and the ULF tactile response from the Crowson actuators. I wasn't looking for a tongue lashing, but appreciate your responses all the same. FYI - I have decided to purchase a new PSA TV3613 sub (dual 18" drivers) combined with one of my existing SVS PC-4000 subs on the LFE channel (downstream of a miniDSP), and two existing PC-4000 subs connected directly to the pre-amp on the left and right channels (No need to chastise me for having mismatched subs).

Sorry to have irritated any of you with "misconceptions," my exhibition of "no sense at all" and "poor use of a very sophisticated system," and my substandard and "willfully mistuned" Bowers & Wilkins speakers .

 

[lovinthehd]

While I think you have a goofy setup, do what appeals but....how would (or why would) anyone compare to such a setup as to what you're doing particularly?

 

[dlasater]

I wasn't asking anyone to compare their setup to my "goofy setup." Just looking for a subwoofer recommendation. Thanks.

 

[Trebdp83]

Interesting scenario. I get it. You want punchy, not boomy bass from stereo when using subs designated for the RT and LT channels. You do you, good luck with the search! Now, if only my cheap little subs had a High Pass Filter, I'd be experimenting with a Full Band signal from my receiver into each sub that would feed the RT and LT speakers for some experimentation and lots o' fun. There, that should take some of the heat off of @dlasater. Or, did I just fan the flames?

 

[kini]

I have grown up as an audiophile with SVS and now its time to upgrade again. I am interested in the PSA TV3613, but wanted to get this group's recommendation for my configuration.

I have a dedicated “media room” used for listening to music (40%) and watching movies (60%), but I am most critical of the sound for music. The room is roughly 18.5’ (front to back) x 13.5’ x 9’ ceilings and is acoustically treated (~2 ms pretty flat to 80 Hz). My 7.3.6 system consists of the following equipment:

Pre-amp: Lyngdorf MP-40 (16 assignable channels)
Amps: McIntosh MC462 2-channel (LR), Rotel RB1590 2-channel (C), Yamaha MX-A5200 11-channel (Surrounds)
Speakers: Bowers & Wilkins 803-D4 (LR), Bowers & Wilkins HTM81-D4 (C), B&W surrounds and Atmos
Subs: SVS PC-4000 x3
Transducers: Crowson Level 3 system (4 actuators)
I use REW for speaker/sub time alignment and run RoomPerfect room correction on the Lyngdorf.

I am not a bass head. I want the sound, including the bass, to be immersive and as tight as possible. The Crowson actuators are only used for movies, not music. Two (2) of the SVS subs are configured as “stereo subs” at the front left and front right on the Left and Right channels. These subs are ported, but I am going to try them in “sealed mode” to see if I can get them a little tighter, which means I will probably lose some bass output at the low end while watching movies. The third SVS sub plays the LFE channel only with no redirected bass, and therefore is not used with music. The single SVS sub with its 13.5” driver on the LFE channel just doesn’t have the capacity to play deep clean base (even when combined with the redirected bass in the LR channels). The transducers have helped with the low frequency extension.

I was originally going to upgrade to the SVS PB16-Ultra, but have read some reviews that have sent me down the road of checking other options. Hence, my interest in the PSA TV3613 taking the responsibility of cleaning up my movie watching immersion. I am limited to about 22” in width at the back left corner of the room.

I don’t want boomy bass and I want to convert my existing front left and right speakers to “sealed” mode to eliminate some port noise, so I wonder if I should go with a sealed sub for LFE, like the PSA S3613, especially considering I have the transducers that provide a deep bass effect. It seems like my needs are more fitting with a ported sub, but I value your input and recommendations.

If your main concern/goal is ULF/LFE then you should be looking at the JTR Cap 2400 or 4000. They both will have more output under 25hz than the 3613. PSA uses pro audio drivers with limited excursion that were made for high output in the audible range, not ULF.

 

[dlasater]

If your main concern/goal is ULF/LFE then you should be looking at the JTR Cap 2400 or 4000. They both will have more output under 25hz than the 3613. PSA uses pro audio drivers with limited excursion that were made for high output in the audible range, not ULF.

Thanks. I looked at both JTR models and got a quote from JTR. They are currently backlogged for 3 months and the 4000 is nearly double the price of the 3613 with taxes and shipping added to the JTRs. They were my runner-ups!