What's the appeal to open baffle speakers?

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Steve Gutenburg, audiophile shrill and reviewer has changed his reference speakers to an open baffle design? What possible advantages do open baffle speakers have over box speakers?


 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Shrill or shill, can't stand Guttenberg. He had Cornwalls as reference speakers? That could be reason for change right there :) Only open baffle speakers I've had were Carver Amazing speakers, which with good positioning were fine but had fragile ribbons when pushed hard....but otherwise no experience myself. I'd think if properly designed and executed (and well placed in your room) an open baffle design could be fine. Tuning in here to see what others have to say about open baffle....
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Steve and I definitely have opposite tastes with regard to speakers. Many of the Klipsch Heritage speakers are highly flawed, and it can be heard even with a brief listen. Unlistenable treble. The type of open-baffle speakers he is advocating are badly flawed. Those whizzer cone drivers have immediate and obvious shortcomings. I didn't watch the whole video, but I can't understand what he is going on about with respect to imaging. Maybe these things can image well if you head is in a vice in a very small sweet spot, but, in my experience with these things, one quality they tend to have is how much the tonality shifts just by moving your head a little bit back and forth. It doesn't take much movement for the sound to significantly change. Move your head back and forth, and it sounds like the speaker is being filtered through a motorized fan.
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
I've had a pair of open baffle speakers for years , these where modelled on the Jamo 907 using a pair of 12 inch drivers. Mid range is a sealed Peerless 821615, and the Tweeter is from Technic's.. Crossover is a low range Scan Speak. Really every thing was done with budget components . As with this type of thing results can't be heard until everything's finished. And you ether keep it of dump it. Amplification do via a pair of Rotel RB-1070, set in bridged mode [330 watts output ]
I've tried to include a photo nothing works.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Steve Gutenburg, audiophile shrill and reviewer has changed his reference speakers to an open baffle design? What possible advantages do open baffle speakers have over box speakers?


There is no passive solution, only very complex active ones. They are not worth the bother.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Would the drivers require different parameter than those for box speakers?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Would the drivers require different parameter than those for box speakers?
They should be mid range in Q, with not over compliant suspensions. The only ones that have been any good have been from Linkwitz
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Back in the 1960's, my father experimented with sweet 16 speakers. They were 16 4" drivers mounted on a baffle. Not very impressive. His serious system had Bozak drivers mounted on a wall that vented outdoors through a secondary fireplace flue. The wall was made from rock and thus was a rock solid baffle. The speakers weren't particulary efficient but they certainly sounded OK.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Back in the 1960's, my father experimented with sweet 16 speakers. They were 16 4" drivers mounted on a baffle. Not very impressive. His serious system had Bozak drivers mounted on a wall that vented outdoors through a secondary fireplace flue. The wall was made from rock and thus was a rock solid baffle. The speakers weren't particulary efficient but they certainly sounded OK.
That is because there was no cancellation between the front and back of the cone in the second attempt. Those cancellations cause a very uneven response, which in an open baffle design makes an active design essential. Passive open baffle designs are just excrement. The second system would be what is known as an infinite baffle design.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
That is because there was no cancellation between the front and back of the cone in the second attempt. Those cancellations cause a very uneven response, which in an open baffle design makes an active design essential. Passive open baffle designs are just excrement. The second system would be what is known as an infinite baffle design.
Correct. He took the back waves completely out of the house.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Just another speaker DESIGN.

Anyone recall when the late Peter Aczell of The Audio Critic would say that the Linkwitz Orion was the best speaker in the world and he bought a pair? :D

I drank that Coolaid and bought a pair for $9K.

Just another design.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
An open baffle speaker is a dipole/bipole - with sound heading out in both directions (back and front)

This means its resonant behaviour, and the way it activates the room, is completely different to monopoles/box speakers.

The harman curve - with the gentle dropping Room profile - is NOT applicable to bipoles/dipoles - if correctly set up (with decent distance from wall behind them) the Room sound pressure profile will be much flatter than with Monopoles.

Electrostatics and other large planar speakers tend to behave this way as well.

When properly set up - it provides a large soundstage you can literally walk around in - no more teeny weeny little sweet spot... optimal imaging may however still be limited (in sweet spot size) by the design of midrange drivers and tweeters, and their dispersion.

They are a step towards omnidirectional speakers - but with Null's to the side, which can facilitate positioning and room optimisation. (allows them to work well in smaller rooms - where they can be quite close to the side walls).

They don't work well if they are too close to the front wall - need enough distance, to ensure that the back wave is sufficiently delayed to NOT interfere with the imaging/timing of the front wave from the speakers - ie: for them to work, the soundwave timing, reaching the listeners ears, needs to be far enough apart for our brains to react to the reflected front sound as a reflection, and NOT as a smearing of the primary signal... that is what makes for their wonderful soundstage. - 2m / 6ft should be OK - lots of people prefer 3m / 9ft - so NOT a small room!!

Also when I had electrostatics - there was no big LED panel between them to block that rear wave coming forward - that might alter things too!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
An open baffle speaker is a dipole/bipole - with sound heading out in both directions (back and front)

This means its resonant behaviour, and the way it activates the room, is completely different to monopoles/box speakers.

The harman curve - with the gentle dropping Room profile - is NOT applicable to bipoles/dipoles - if correctly set up (with decent distance from wall behind them) the Room sound pressure profile will be much flatter than with Monopoles.

Electrostatics and other large planar speakers tend to behave this way as well.

When properly set up - it provides a large soundstage you can literally walk around in - no more teeny weeny little sweet spot... optimal imaging may however still be limited (in sweet spot size) by the design of midrange drivers and tweeters, and their dispersion.

They are a step towards omnidirectional speakers - but with Null's to the side, which can facilitate positioning and room optimisation. (allows them to work well in smaller rooms - where they can be quite close to the side walls).

They don't work well if they are too close to the front wall - need enough distance, to ensure that the back wave is sufficiently delayed to NOT interfere with the imaging/timing of the front wave from the speakers - ie: for them to work, the soundwave timing, reaching the listeners ears, needs to be far enough apart for our brains to react to the reflected front sound as a reflection, and NOT as a smearing of the primary signal... that is what makes for their wonderful soundstage. - 2m / 6ft should be OK - lots of people prefer 3m / 9ft - so NOT a small room!!

Also when I had electrostatics - there was no big LED panel between them to block that rear wave coming forward - that might alter things too!
There is a problem of fundamental physics. The front pressure wave on forward motion is positive and the rear wave negative, and the reverse is true. So there is cancellation of the rear and back waves as they are 180 degrees out of phase. The problem is that the degree of cancellation is frequency dependent.
This means a passive open baffle speaker will have a poor FR with peaks and nulls. So this means that to be any good an open baffle design has to be active, with an amp for every driver, an electronic crossover that also applies Eq. to handle the inevitable peaks and nulls. Passive open baffle speakers sound awful, and always will as there is no way to get a decent FR in a speaker designed like that.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
There is a problem of fundamental physics. The front pressure wave on forward motion is positive and the rear wave negative, and the reverse is true. So there is cancellation of the rear and back waves as they are 180 degrees out of phase. The problem is that the degree of cancellation is frequency dependent.
This means a passive open baffle speaker will have a poor FR with peaks and nulls. So this means that to be any good an open baffle design has to be active, with an amp for every driver, an electronic crossover that also applies Eq. to handle the inevitable peaks and nulls. Passive open baffle speakers sound awful, and always will as there is no way to get a decent FR in a speaker designed like that.
As I recall from listening to the purest form of open baffle speaker - a straight electrostatic panel - it actually sounds pretty darn good.

I have owned the Quad ELS63, and the Quad ESL989, also the original Quad ESL57, also listened extensively to Martin Logan CLS - none of these had the sort of issues you are describing.

Yes they were/are somewhat constrained in the lower bass ... hence lots of people pair them with subs - or manufacturers like Martin Logan build in a Sub.

Gradient built a superb dipole sub to pair with the Quad ELS63 matching the radiation pattern of the ESL itself - again a very good combination.

I would suggest, based on actual experience listening to bipole/dipole speakers that your theory is substantially lacking..

Yes there can be issues - primarily if they are too close to a wall behind them - then you get cancellation issues, and sounstage collaps, as well as the imaging getting messed up.

But I did stress, that these speakers need to be far enough from the wall behind them to avoid that problem - then they become different beasts.

I would suggest that you should try a set sometime - it can be highly educational
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
As I recall from listening to the purest form of open baffle speaker - a straight electrostatic panel - it actually sounds pretty darn good.

I have owned the Quad ELS63, and the Quad ESL989, also the original Quad ESL57, also listened extensively to Martin Logan CLS - none of these had the sort of issues you are describing.

Yes they were/are somewhat constrained in the lower bass ... hence lots of people pair them with subs - or manufacturers like Martin Logan build in a Sub.

Gradient built a superb dipole sub to pair with the Quad ELS63 matching the radiation pattern of the ESL itself - again a very good combination.

I would suggest, based on actual experience listening to bipole/dipole speakers that your theory is substantially lacking..

Yes there can be issues - primarily if they are too close to a wall behind them - then you get cancellation issues, and sounstage collaps, as well as the imaging getting messed up.

But I did stress, that these speakers need to be far enough from the wall behind them to avoid that problem - then they become different beasts.

I would suggest that you should try a set sometime - it can be highly educational
This thread I think was intended to be about open baffle moving coil speaker driver designs, and not about large diaphragm planar speakers that you are talking about.

I was there when Peter Walker first demonstrated the Quad ESL. This was a tremendous achievement. It was the world's first truly tonally accurate speaker.

The planar speakers are very large diaphragm speakers, which do have a di-pole radiation pattern causing cancellation and nulls to the sides. However this results in a predictable low frequency roll off. The biggest problem is beaming due to the large diaphragm. Peter managed to solve this with his archery pattern of delay lines on the diaphragm.



This solved the beaming problem, and is unique to the ESL 67 and subsequent. Bass was still limited and mitigated by the di-pole sub produced be Gradient of Finland.

You can see full details of the Quad ESL 63 here.

There is no doubt that the Quad ESL 63 is one of the world's most accurate speakers. Peter analyzed the behavior of a thin stretched plastic membrane. Of course sound will pass through that unaltered. In a way you can regard it as a perfect speaker. By studying how the sound moved through that stretched membrane, he was able to closely mimic the effect with those delay lines, and this drastically improved the radiation pattern.

The biggest limitation of the electrostatic is power handling as if it is over driven, then sparks puncture the plastic membrane requiring a rebuild. So there has to be drastic power limitation which is immediate and obvious if power is exceeded. Since the ESL is not that efficient then spl. is limited.

Quad ESL 63

Peter's intent was to produce a very accurate speaker as a yardstick to assist in the design of more conventional speakers, including his own. I think he achieved this goal without question.



These Quads are the only speaker I know off that can reasonably reproduce a square wave.



In years passed on my visits back to the UK, I would travel to Huntingdon and meet with Peter Walker and we would enjoy a good pub lunch at the angel. On one of those visits he demonstrated to me how a pair of Quad ESL 63s wired out of phase could cancel a square wave in mid air! No other speaker could ever come close to achieving such a feat.

Due to the unusual radiation pattern you can not get an accurate close mic FR, so you have to generate an averaged room response, to asses the speaker.





I still maintain that passive open baffle moving coil drivers are a mess, and do not sound good.

Within their limitations Quad ESLs are very accurate speakers.

The other planar large diaphragm speakers are the Maggies. Their magnestatic planar loudspeakers, are also large diaphragm planar loudspeakers with a di-pole radiation pattern, like the Quad ESLs. These certainly have a following. Planar speakers do face a headwind in the days of AV as they present difficulties integrating in an AV systems.

As an aside I use exclusively Peter Walker's Quad current dumping amps, with 13 currently in use. 9 in the AV room, 2 in our great room system and two in the family room.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Sadly... I was forced to part ways with my Quad ESL's in the search for domestic harmony....

For a few years I ran a 4.1 HT setup using a pair of ESL989's at the front and ESL63's at the rear

Yes it lacked for maximum SPL's - but was more than ample for my needs - and the ability to portray microdetail was always superb, imaging and positioning in surround was excellent - I did have plans for deploying one or both of my ESL57's for center channel use - but that never happened (I still have them in storage)

I still own 2 x Quad 606 amps - but found them to be at their limits handling the Gallo speakers that replaced my Quads. (one of the thing that attracted me to the Gallo's, was the fact that they sounded so "electrostatic") - so they are currently (!) idle with a pair of Crown monster amps driving my 1.6ohm Gallo's.

If in future, I have the space for them (and the domestic permission!) - then I would definitely go back to ESL's

But getting back to the topic at hand - I don't see how, in a theoretical sense, an open baffle moving coil speaker differs from an ESL... I think the ESL has probably lower distortion, along with lower SPL's, and limited bass response.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Sadly... I was forced to part ways with my Quad ESL's in the search for domestic harmony....

For a few years I ran a 4.1 HT setup using a pair of ESL989's at the front and ESL63's at the rear

Yes it lacked for maximum SPL's - but was more than ample for my needs - and the ability to portray microdetail was always superb, imaging and positioning in surround was excellent - I did have plans for deploying one or both of my ESL57's for center channel use - but that never happened (I still have them in storage)

I still own 2 x Quad 606 amps - but found them to be at their limits handling the Gallo speakers that replaced my Quads. (one of the thing that attracted me to the Gallo's, was the fact that they sounded so "electrostatic") - so they are currently (!) idle with a pair of Crown monster amps driving my 1.6ohm Gallo's.

If in future, I have the space for them (and the domestic permission!) - then I would definitely go back to ESL's

But getting back to the topic at hand - I don't see how, in a theoretical sense, an open baffle moving coil speaker differs from an ESL... I think the ESL has probably lower distortion, along with lower SPL's, and limited bass response.
The two situations are very different. The electrostatics and Maggies are driven over the whole area, so the nulls occur at the sides, and the bass falls off with a direct relationship to the size of the panel, as the wavelength increases then the bass output falls, in a predictable fashion. A very large electrostatic panel has a good bass response.

A cone loudspeaker on the other hand has a small dimension compared to wavelength and if there is no baffle has virtually zero bass response.

When you put the speaker on a baffle then only a relatively small part of the panel is driven, and the baffle being wider then the drivers results in all kinds of reflections with nulls and peaks, as they cancel or reinforce as they get to the edge. So, in order to solve the problem you need an active network to drive the speakers.

The late Siegfried Linkwitz did a lot of work on open baffle speakers, and produced some successful designs but they are very complex.

However, the whole design construct is acoustically very inefficient. Moving coil speaker designs can be made much more efficient in the lower frequencies with proper loading by either Helmholtz resonators, pipes or horns. The reason is that these systems convert air pressure to air displacement controlling cone displacement and lowering distortion while increasing efficiency. The only advantage of a sealed box is reduced cabinet size, but requires brute force for a decent bass response.
I personally use pipes in my reference systems as this can provide good efficiency with low Q and provide aperiodic loading.

There is really no inherent advantage to having rear radiation in a domestic environment, in fact it tends to be a detriment. There is a lot in favor of the half space forward radiation pattern, converting to omni-polar radiation below the transition frequency, which describes most speakers. As long as the transition frequency is properly handled the results can be excellent. A small width to the front baffle is an advantage as it reduces front baffle reflections contributing to an irregular response because of peaks and nulls resulting from those reflections. That is why that concept is so popular. A bi-polar radiation pattern on the other hand makes placement very fussy and deleterious in many domestic situations. However in the right environment with careful positioning, di-pole speakers like the Quad ESLs can sound very good, but domestic environments and domestic bliss often mitigate against them.

Lastly with modern digital media and powerful amps, speakers can be constructed to produce concert hall levels and dynamics, that are only achievable currently with moving coil cone loudspeakers efficiently loaded. The design pictured by 3db. at the top of this thread is just a dumb design any way you look at it.

The Quad current dumping amps, 405-2, 606 and 909, are comfortable with loads down to 4 ohms, but not below that. A speaker presenting a load of 1.9 ohms is an incompetent design and there is no excuse for it. As Billy Woodman of ATC points out, these speakers with low impedances a crazy phase angles pretty much always have electrical resonance issues in the crossover design, but their designers are too incompetent to know it.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
The two situations are very different. The electrostatics and Maggies are driven over the whole area, so the nulls occur at the sides, and the bass falls off with a direct relationship to the size of the panel, as the wavelength increases then the bass output falls, in a predictable fashion. A very large electrostatic panel has a good bass response.

A cone loudspeaker on the other hand has a small dimension compared to wavelength and if there is no baffle has virtually zero bass response.

When you put the speaker on a baffle then only a relatively small part of the panel is driven, and the baffle being wider then the drivers results in all kinds of reflections with nulls and peaks, as they cancel or reinforce as they get to the edge. So, in order to solve the problem you need an active network to drive the speakers.

The late Siegfried Linkwitz did a lot of work on open baffle speakers, and produced some successful designs but they are very complex.

However, the whole design construct is acoustically very inefficient. Moving coil speaker designs can be made much more efficient in the lower frequencies with proper loading by either Helmholtz resonators, pipes or horns. The reason is that these systems convert air pressure to air displacement controlling cone displacement and lowering distortion while increasing efficiency. The only advantage of a sealed box is reduced cabinet size, but requires brute force for a decent bass response.
I personally use pipes in my reference systems as this can provide good efficiency with low Q and provide aperiodic loading.

There is really no inherent advantage to having rear radiation in a domestic environment, in fact it tends to be a detriment. There is a lot in favor of the half space forward radiation pattern, converting to omni-polar radiation below the transition frequency, which describes most speakers. As long as the transition frequency is properly handled the results can be excellent. A small width to the front baffle is an advantage as it reduces front baffle reflections contributing to an irregular response because of peaks and nulls resulting from those reflections. That is why that concept is so popular. A bi-polar radiation pattern on the other hand makes placement very fussy and deleterious in many domestic situations. However in the right environment with careful positioning, di-pole speakers like the Quad ESLs can sound very good, but domestic environments and domestic bliss often mitigate against them.

Lastly with modern digital media and powerful amps, speakers can be constructed to produce concert hall levels and dynamics, that are only achievable currently with moving coil cone loudspeakers efficiently loaded. The design pictured by 3db. at the top of this thread is just a dumb design any way you look at it.

The Quad current dumping amps, 405-2, 606 and 909, are comfortable with loads down to 4 ohms, but not below that. A speaker presenting a load of 1.9 ohms is an incompetent design and there is no excuse for it. As Billy Woodman of ATC points out, these speakers with low impedances a crazy phase angles pretty much always have electrical resonance issues in the crossover design, but their designers are too incompetent to know it.
In this case the low impedance is a property of the Gallo CDT tweeter, and the design that has a crossoverless transition between tweeter and midrange.

The result is very ESL like - they are far from a traditional speaker design!

And yes although they remain stable, the 606's don't handle it very well - the speakers designer used to demo them with Spectron Musician 500W ClassD amps... and from my own experience, feeding them with 440W amps gets good results (even though I listen at mostly relatively low levels!) - my own guess is that the good results are due to having massive current available and the ability to produce decent power below 2 ohm. I could probably do with smaller amps, but these crossed my path at a good price, and have matched well.

The issues with speaker design - I am not totally convinced.

I recall for example the Boston A400 speakers (also mid 80's design) a very wide baffle speaker - with very shallow depth, it was also a true acoustic suspension design, with twin 8" woofers...

I recall feeding it with either a Quad 405-2 or a Revox Integrated (B252 I think? from memory), it was a superb speaker - yet it runs completely contrary to multiple of your proposed "ideal speaker" principles - narrow baffle and various forms of port loading to improve bass efficiency. (they had a very good "chest thump" with the right track!) - also unlike many "box" speakers... I don't recall them "sounding like boxes" - something that bothered me with many many standard speakers! (not sure whether the box sound is resonance or difraction but panels never have it, most "boxes" do)

Over the years I have found myself usually preferring sealed bass to ported bass...

Perhaps, like many things, there are multiple ways to skin this cat?
 
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