Problems With Liberal Democracy

[Trell]

I've read the article YOU provided. Their example was an 84 year old black woman that for some reason didn't have a birth certificate.

Even if there have been efforts, if the vote wasn't suppressed, then you have failure. Ergo, despite some cabalistic intent, it didn't happen.

Is that all you got from that article from 2016? And if the voter suppression attempts fails it doesn’t matter?

Here is a quote from that article showing intent as well as a study of the effects of strict voter ID laws.

>>>Last week, during the federal trial on Wisconsin’s voter-ID law, a former Republican staffer testified that GOP senators were “giddy” about the idea that the state’s 2011 voter-ID law might keep Democrats, particularly minorities in Milwaukee, from voting and help them win at the polls. “They were politically frothing at the mouth,” said the aide, Todd Allbaugh.

A recent voter-ID study by political scientists at the University of California at San Diego analyzed turnout in elections between 2008 and 2012 and found “substantial drops in turnout for minorities under strict voter ID laws.”

“These results suggest that by instituting strict photo ID laws, states could minimize the influence of voters on the left and could dramatically alter the political leaning of the electorate,” the study concluded.<<<

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html

 

[jinjuku]

Is that all you got from that article from 2016? And if the voter suppression attempts fails it doesn’t matter?

Here is a quote from that article showing intent as well as a study of the effects of strict voter ID laws.

>>>Last week, during the federal trial on Wisconsin’s voter-ID law, a former Republican staffer testified that GOP senators were “giddy” about the idea that the state’s 2011 voter-ID law might keep Democrats, particularly minorities in Milwaukee, from voting and help them win at the polls. “They were politically frothing at the mouth,” said the aide, Todd Allbaugh.

A recent voter-ID study by political scientists at the University of California at San Diego analyzed turnout in elections between 2008 and 2012 and found “substantial drops in turnout for minorities under strict voter ID laws.”

“These results suggest that by instituting strict photo ID laws, states could minimize the influence of voters on the left and could dramatically alter the political leaning of the electorate,” the study concluded.<<<

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html

You are drawing a false equivalency though. If you have Dems thinking POC's can't get and ID and it's bad for them. You have Republicans thinking POC's can't get an ID and it's good for them.

You are equating expectations of a preconceived outcome due to a Voter ID Laws.

And to talk to your point:
“substantial drops in turnout for minorities under strict voter ID laws.”

Sorry but you need an ID to: Fly, apply for a loan, purchase tobacco, purchase alcohol, get a tattoo, open a bank account, cash a check, rent a vehicle.

It reminds me a school systems that looks at the distribution of math scores to discover that 48% are D's. So lets just lower the standards to that level and turn all those D's into A's.

 

[Trell]

You are drawing a false equivalency though. If you have Dems thinking POC's can't get and ID and it's bad for them. You have Republicans thinking POC's can't get an ID and it's good for them.

You are equating expectations of a preconceived outcome due to a Voter ID Laws.

And to talk to your point:
“substantial drops in turnout for minorities under strict voter ID laws.”

Sorry but you need an ID to: Fly, apply for a loan, purchase tobacco, purchase alcohol, get a tattoo, open a bank account, cash a check, rent a vehicle.

It reminds me a school systems that looks at the distribution of math scores to discover that 48% are D's. So lets just lower the standards to that level and turn all those D's into A's.

The are studies showing the effect of strict voter ID laws in USA and one in the linked article. Which you ignore, like other studies or articles.

This is just one example of voter suppression, which according to you doesn’t happen in USA. Which is quite ignorant.

 

[jinjuku]

The are studies showing the effect of strict voter ID laws in USA and one in the linked article. Which you ignore, like other studies or articles.

This is just one example of voter suppression, which according to you doesn’t happen in USA. Which is quite ignorant.

No, you keep ignoring the fact, and I'll refer to my link to a SCOTUS opinion that the way to fight voter fraud is to implement an ID requirement.

AGAIN: Fly, rent, tattoo, bank, drive, purchase gun/alcohol/tobacco, get a hotel room, all have ID requirements. Is that also biased against certain classes of people? Please answer this specific question. You keep dodging.

I get it that you are upset that a voter ID law may have some tertiary effects.

 

[GO-NAD!]

No, you keep ignoring the fact, and I'll refer to my link to a SCOTUS opinion that the way to fight voter fraud is to implement an ID requirement.

AGAIN: Fly, rent, tattoo, bank, drive, purchase gun/alcohol/tobacco, get a hotel room, all have ID requirements. Is that also biased against certain classes of people? Please answer this specific question. You keep dodging.

I get it that you are upset that a voter ID law may have some tertiary effects.

We've already been over the voter ID issue. It has been well established that the GOP's ID concerns are less about voter fraud and more about impeding people who are more likely to vote for Democrats. Links have been posted backing this up, and that doesn't include FOX soundbites.

This points to another problem with liberal democracy - political parties that place a higher priority on winning elections and maintaining power than on the needs of the country. Parties across the spectrum have been guilty of this, but in the American context right now, electoral jiggery-pokery appears to be the modus operandi of the GOP.

If you're a Republican, don't be shy about it - own it. If your party can make it work for your side, congratulations. Well played. Just don't pretend that its about election integrity.

 

[jinjuku]

It has been well established that the GOP's ID concerns are less about voter fraud and more about impeding people who are more likely to vote for Democrats.

The link I posted to that Justice Alito referred was a mandate on vote protection by the National Board of Elections.

I get it that it give's republicans a hard on.

We will try this one more time:

AGAIN: Fly, rent, tattoo, bank, drive, purchase gun/alcohol/tobacco, get a hotel room, all have ID requirements. Is that also biased against certain classes of people? Please answer this specific question. You keep dodging.

 

[jinjuku]

BTW I'm now actively looking how I can volunteer my time to help people obtain an ID. Kentucky is not a strict nor lax voter ID state.

I'd rather help people come into compliance and reap all the other benefits of having an ID (banking, certain purchases, establishing credit, etc).

The matter of the fact is that increased difficulty of casting your vote is only one of MANY drawbacks of not having an ID and I'm not interesting in harping on the one vertical.

I have two goals: Help those without an ID and not dilute voting standards.

You can help by volunteering at https://www.spreadthevote.org/volunteer.

I can help in Indiana.

 

[Danzilla31]

We've already been over the voter ID issue. It has been well established that the GOP's ID concerns are less about voter fraud and more about impeding people who are more likely to vote for Democrats. Links have been posted backing this up, and that doesn't include FOX soundbites.

This points to another problem with liberal democracy - political parties that place a higher priority on winning elections and maintaining power than on the needs of the country. Parties across the spectrum have been guilty of this, but in the American context right now, electoral jiggery-pokery appears to be the modus operandi of the GOP.

If you're a Republican, don't be shy about it - own it. If your party can make it work for your side, congratulations. Well played. Just don't pretend that its about election integrity.

Political parties thar prioritize winning elections and maintaining power over the needs of the people. Hmmmm here in America that's a liberal problem as well a conservative one.

Why are so many democratic cities legislated and taxed the heaviest here in America? And yet they're cities and constituents have NOTHING to show for it.

California taxes everything I mean EVERYTHING. Where is all that money going? It sure isn't going to the people.

That blade cuts both ways the way I see it.

 

[Danzilla31]

We've already been over the voter ID issue. It has been well established that the GOP's ID concerns are less about voter fraud and more about impeding people who are more likely to vote for Democrats. Links have been posted backing this up, and that doesn't include FOX soundbites.

This points to another problem with liberal democracy - political parties that place a higher priority on winning elections and maintaining power than on the needs of the country. Parties across the spectrum have been guilty of this, but in the American context right now, electoral jiggery-pokery appears to be the modus operandi of the GOP.

If you're a Republican, don't be shy about it - own it. If your party can make it work for your side, congratulations. Well played. Just don't pretend that its about election integrity.

@jinjuku has already said that he is a Democrat. If I may respectfully inquire why are you basically telling him he's a Republican just because he doesn't agree with your point?

As for your studies they mean nothing I can link you dozens from the other viewpoint that claim they prove the exact opposite of what your saying

But you know what outdoes studies? Is actual real world results. And from what I can see in these mid terms I agree with @jinjuku I basically can't see any evidence of a voter suppression

I mean Republicane in lots of areas got every voting requirement they asked for. And they still underperformed in these midterms.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The link I posted to that Justice Alito referred was a mandate on vote protection by the National Board of Elections.

I get it that it give's republicans a hard on.

We will try this one more time:

AGAIN: Fly, rent, tattoo, bank, drive, purchase gun/alcohol/tobacco, get a hotel room, all have ID requirements. Is that also biased against certain classes of people? Please answer this specific question. You keep dodging.

I haven't dodged that question at all. I would expect that people having trouble obtaining ID would have trouble engaging in the activities you indicated as well. The main difference is that there is no constitutional right to fly, drive, get a tattoo, etc. Why, in Texas, is a concealed weapons permit good enough ID to vote, but a student ID isn't?

I've provided links illustrating the problems many people have in obtaining ID that is acceptable for voting. Have you not bothered to read them?

There's no reason why a vouch system couldn't be implemented. It works in other countries, including mine.

 

[Trell]

Some good news in this election for US democracy.

Voters Reject Election Deniers Running to Take Over Elections (Published 2022)

With Jim Marchant’s defeat by Cisco Aguilar in Nevada’s secretary of state race, all but one of the “America First” slate of candidates who espoused conspiracy theories about the 2020 election were defeated.

www.nytimes.com

>>>Every election denier who sought to become the top election official in a critical battleground state lost at the polls this year, as voters roundly rejected extreme partisans who promised to restrict voting and overhaul the electoral process.

The national repudiation of this coalition reached its apex on Saturday, when Cisco Aguilar, the Democratic candidate for secretary of state in Nevada, defeated Jim Marchant, according to The Associated Press. Mr. Marchant, the Republican nominee, had helped organize a national right-wing slate of candidates under the name “America First.”

With Mr. Marchant’s loss to Mr. Aguilar, all but one of those “America First” candidates were defeated. Only Diego Morales, a Republican in deep-red Indiana, was successful, while candidates in Michigan, Arizona and New Mexico were defeated.

Their losses halted a plan by some allies of former President Donald J. Trump and other influential donors to take over the election apparatus in critical states before the 2024 presidential election. The “America First” candidates, and their explicitly partisan statements, had alarmed Democrats, independent election experts and even some Republicans, who feared that if they gained office, they could threaten the integrity of future elections. ...<<<

 

[highfigh]

The brutal attacker DePape has nothing to do with Republicans or the MAGA? Unlike you I do read and try to be informed about various issues, and I think you should try it some time.

Pelosi attack suspect David DePape embraced hate speech, multiple conspiracy theories

The suspect in the attack on Paul Pelosi, husband of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, appears to have been an active online participant in multiple conspiracy theories, railing against perceived censorship and government control, and engaging in hate speech.

www.cbsnews.com

>>>DePape was known for embracing multiple conspiracy theories on subjects such as voter fraud, climate change, and the COVID pandemic on at least two different online forums. He also has posted antisemitic screeds and entries defending former President Donald Trump and Ye, the rapper formally known as Kayne West who recently made antisemitic comments.

In other posts, the writer said Jews helped finance Hitler's political rise in Germany and suggested an antisemitic plot was involved in Russia's recent invasion of Ukraine.

In a Sept. 27 post, the writer said any journalists who denied Trump's false claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election "should be dragged straight out into the street and shot."

An Aug. 24 entry titled "Q," displayed a scatological collection of memes that included photos of the deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and made reference to QAnon, the baseless pro-Trump conspiracy theory that espouses the belief that the country is run by a deep-state cabal of child sex traffickers, satanic pedophiles and baby-eating cannibals.

"Big Brother has deemed doing your own research as a thought crime," read a post that appeared to blend references to QAnon with George Orwell's dystopian novel "1984."

In an Aug. 25 entry titled "Gun Rights," the poster wrote: "You no longer have rights. Your basic human rights hinder Big Brothers ability to enslave and control you in a complete and totalizing way."

In one of his recent posts about Donald Trump, DePape asserted, "Trump you NEEEEEEEED to make Tulsi your VP in 2024." ...<<<

Sorry I can't pi$$ away every hour of every day- I have other things to do but thanks so much for yet another insult.

 

[highfigh]

I've read the article YOU provided. Their example was an 84 year old black woman that for some reason didn't have a birth certificate.

Even if there have been efforts, if the vote wasn't suppressed, then you have failure. Ergo, despite some cabalistic intent, it didn't happen.

It's possible that she had a birth cert but lost it-it's not hard to do after moving several times. I have the certificate from the hospital where I was born, but can't find the one from the state and my mom had a file for everyone in the family, but she passed in '97 and my dad had all of the documents she had compiled over the decades. I don't know if he decided to clean out some of them in the three years he was alive after she left, so I'll need to get a replacement when I go in for my Real ID driver's license or a passport.

Oddly, in Milwaukee County, where people have so many reasons to vote, they didn't. Only 62.4% voted in the mid-terms and the billboards along the freeway had the message of "Wisconsin will have a record number of votes again this year"- not sure but some may have thought "Well, they have it covered, so I won't bother. If more had voted, Mandela Barnes would have won by a wide margin and the race for Governor wouldn't have been close.

In light of the fact that Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay and the La Cross/Eau Claire area are heavily weighted in favor of Democrats, I would like to see where the Republicans are trying to suppress the minority voters. I'm pretty sure that if they tried to do it at the polls in these places, they'd be running for their lives because it wouldn't be tolerated. In MKE, Obama won with a huge margin and he campaigned here last week but even that didn't get people to the polls.

 

[Trell]

Sorry I can't pi$$ away every hour of every day- I have other things to do but thanks so much for yet another insult.

You’re the dude repeatedly telling foreigners, like me and @GO-NAD!, not to contradict you because you get your “information” by talking to some people, while we read quality articles/studies and can backup what we claim. You then go on to denigrate reading as a source of information.

So you write that I was very wrong and posting unfounded crap. I reply with a link, including a quote, showing that you indeed where wrong. A nonsense whiny reply from you unable to rebut with facts or quite simply say “I was wrong” and move on.

This is a familiar ritual with you.

 

[highfigh]

You’re the dude repeatedly telling foreigners, like me and @GO-NAD!, not to contradict you because you get your “information” by talking to some people, while we read quality articles/studies and can backup what we claim. You then go on to denigrate reading as a source of information.

So you write that I was very wrong and posting unfounded crap. I reply with a link, including a quote, showing that you indeed where wrong. A nonsense whiny reply from you unable to rebut with facts or quite simply say “I was wrong” and move on.

This is a familiar ritual with you.

I tell you that if you don't live here that you shouldn't tell me I'm wrong and I don't denigrate reading as a source, I wrote that data doesn't tell the whole story.

Oooh, you have quality articles.......great. I gave you the name of the scanner app I use- try it. You'll be amazed by some of the calls. It's OK, you won't get any on you.

 

[Trell]

I tell you that if you don't live here that you shouldn't tell me I'm wrong and I don't denigrate reading as a source, I wrote that data doesn't tell the whole story.

Oooh, you have quality articles.......great. I gave you the name of the scanner app I use- try it. You'll be amazed by some of the calls. It's OK, you won't get any on you.

Well, you’re often wrong, dude, and are unable to backup your claims.

And why should I install a “scanner app” and for what use? Is it for listening to police radio?

 

[jinjuku]

while we read quality articles/studies and can backup what we claim

Can you then point out any papers that explains very healthy turnout for most midterms this cycle? I'm having a logic problem with your incongruity.

 

[Trell]

Can you then point out any papers that explains very healthy turnout for most midterms this cycle? I'm having a logic problem with your incongruity.

Research about the election is ongoing and is of course not ready yet, so you'll have to wait, but such papers do require some intellectual capacity and reading comprehension skills to understand. I'm not sure links to such papers are of any use to you as the others we gave you was too advanced, given your response to those those links.

Have you tried Fox News? There you can get dumbed down sound bites for morons, that is false, but sounds truthy and appeals to the viewers preconceived conceptions that are immune to facts and science. You don't even have to read.

 

[jinjuku]

Research about the election is ongoing and is of course not ready yet, so you'll have to wait, but such papers do require some intellectual capacity and reading comprehension skills to understand. I'm not sure links to such papers are of any use to you as the others we gave you was too advanced, given your response to those those links.

I'll warn you not to turn this personal azzhole. You provided links, I read them, I'm looking at the non-effects of their claims, which you seem to still be backing despite getting smacked up side the head with the contra-evidence of the current election cycle that you are now caught flat-footed and can't explain other than there will be 'another paper'.

Let me tell you your problem: You can't think for yourself. You hide behind a paper with no ability to provide an original thought about why your claim and current realities are complete 180's.

If I can't understand a paper, then you lack original thought.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'll warn you not to turn this personal azzhole. You provided links, I read them, I'm looking at the non-effects of their claims, which you seem to still be backing despite getting smacked up side the head with the contra-evidence of the current election cycle that you are now caught flat-footed and can't explain other than there will be 'another paper'.

Let me tell you your problem: You can't think for yourself. You hide behind a paper with no ability to provide an original thought about why your claim and current realities are complete 180's.

If I can't understand a paper, then you lack original thought.

Have you considered the possibility that voter turnout for this election might have some bearing on the results, overcoming efforts to suppress votes? And, it looks like more than a few Republicans turned against Trump toady candidates. That doesn't mean no harm, no foul.

Researchers say 2022 election had second highest young voter turnout in last 30 years

Story at a glance Turnout in battleground states was even higher for this key demographic, at around 31 percent. In previous midterm elections, young voter turnout hovered around 20 percent. …

thehill.com

It's commendable that you want to help people get ID. On that note we've beaten the issue of voter suppression and ID problems to death and I will not comment on either any further.