Center channel issues

[bstan]

Restarting my home theater/audiophile hobby after many years (decades), and I've been upgrading piece by piece. Started with a 65" LG oled, Denon AVR s760h, B&W 707 fronts, and put two micca surrounds in the wall behind (pla eholders until I get the cash to upgrade). The issue is with the center channel.

I had a Def Tech Procenter1000 center until recently when I had the chance to upgrade to the matching B&W HTM 72 S2 at a nice discount. While im happy with the results overall, there is something I don't like in the voices, and it might be more pronounced in the female voice? Not sure how to describe it. Maybe muffled? or distorted? Or harsh? (All three?) Turning off the Audessey Dynamic EQ seemed to help tone it down a bit. Any ideas?

 

[j_garcia]

Dynamic EQ should remain off, not sure why it even exists. Have you tried adjusting the placement?

Those Miccas are no joke. I have a pair of MB42xs in the bedroom and I am still surprised at how good they are for the price.

 

[NINaudio]

Restarting my home theater/audiophile hobby after many years (decades), and I've been upgrading piece by piece. Started with a 65" LG oled, Denon AVR s760h, B&W 707 fronts, and put two micca surrounds in the wall behind (pla eholders until I get the cash to upgrade). The issue is with the center channel.

I had a Def Tech Procenter1000 center until recently when I had the chance to upgrade to the matching B&W HTM 72 S2 at a nice discount. While im happy with the results overall, there is something I don't like in the voices, and it might be more pronounced in the female voice? Not sure how to describe it. Maybe muffled? or distorted? Or harsh? (All three?) Turning off the Audessey Dynamic EQ seemed to help tone it down a bit. Any ideas?

Can you post a picture of your center speaker placement?

You reran audyssey when you got the new speaker, right?

 

[TLS Guy]

Restarting my home theater/audiophile hobby after many years (decades), and I've been upgrading piece by piece. Started with a 65" LG oled, Denon AVR s760h, B&W 707 fronts, and put two micca surrounds in the wall behind (pla eholders until I get the cash to upgrade). The issue is with the center channel.

I had a Def Tech Procenter1000 center until recently when I had the chance to upgrade to the matching B&W HTM 72 S2 at a nice discount. While im happy with the results overall, there is something I don't like in the voices, and it might be more pronounced in the female voice? Not sure how to describe it. Maybe muffled? or distorted? Or harsh? (All three?) Turning off the Audessey Dynamic EQ seemed to help tone it down a bit. Any ideas?

We get more complaints about center channel speakers, than just about any of the others.

I guess my first question is what are you using for a sub or subs?

The center channel is reproducing the human voice and that is the toughest challenge of all, where deficiencies in speaker stick out like a sore thumb.

In addition most centers have that horizontal MTM design where the tweeter is flanked by two bass/mids. Unfortunately that is a very bad design. The reason is that there is poor lateral dispersion and better vertical dispersion, which is the opposite of what is required. So better approaches are to use a coaxial driver, or a three way center, where the tweeter is above the midrange, and a low crossover to the woofers.

Your speakers are small. They have low sensitivity, 84 db. for the mains, and 87 for that center. In addition although those speakers are specified as 8 ohm nominal both are specified to drop to the 4 ohm region. In general the minimum impedance is actually much closer to the actual impedance than the nominal impedance. The nominal impedance is pretty much anything the manufacturer drags out of the back of their neck to increase sales. So it is certainly possible that those speakers are stressing your receiver and causing it to clip.

Those speakers are small, and as expected have a poor bass response.

If you are not using a sub, then a good sub or two, would probably help greatly. With those speakers I would crossover at 100 Hz rather then 80 Hz.

Lastly you did not mention the position of that center. If it is tucked away in a shelf with top, bottom and sides, then that will be a big part of your problem.

 

[bstan]

The sub is an older B&W ASW600 which I'm also using as a placeholder until I can upgrade. I'll include a picture. Center is higher than desirable but can't be avoided. I have the rear slightly elevated to point tweeter down. Speakers are all set to small and crossed at 80Hz.

 

[bstan]

Can you post a picture of your center speaker placement?

You reran audyssey when you got the new speaker, right?

Yup, re-ran Audessey. Posted a pic elsewhere on this thread.

 

[bstan]

We get more complaints about center channel speakers, than just about any of the others.

I guess my first question is what are you using for a sub or subs?

The center channel is reproducing the human voice and that is the toughest challenge of all, where deficiencies in speaker stick out like a sore thumb.

In addition most centers have that horizontal MTM design where the tweeter is flanked by two bass/mids. Unfortunately that is a very bad design. The reason is that there is poor lateral dispersion and better vertical dispersion, which is the opposite of what is required. So better approaches are to use a coaxial driver, or a three way center, where the tweeter is above the midrange, and a low crossover to the woofers.

Your speakers are small. They have low sensitivity, 84 db. for the mains, and 87 for that center. In addition although those speakers are specified as 8 ohm nominal both are specified to drop to the 4 ohm region. In general the minimum impedance is actually much closer to the actual impedance than the nominal impedance. The nominal impedance is pretty much anything the manufacturer drags out of the back of their neck to increase sales. So it is certainly possible that those speakers are stressing your receiver and causing it to clip.

Those speakers are small, and as expected have a poor bass response.

If you are not using a sub, then a good sub or two, would probably help greatly. With those speakers I would crossover at 100 Hz rather then 80 Hz.

Lastly you did not mention the position of that center. If it is tucked away in a shelf with top, bottom and sides, then that will be a big part of your problem.

Thanks. I'll change the crossovers and see if that helps. Spending any more money on this right now is not possible, so have to optimize what I have. I don't believe the amp is the problem, it's rated down to 4 ohms and the issue is apparent at moderate volumes.

 

[bstan]

Dynamic EQ should remain off, not sure why it even exists. Have you tried adjusting the placement?

Those Miccas are no joke. I have a pair of MB42xs in the bedroom and I am still surprised at how good they are for the price.
[/QUOTE

I agree! I bought two M-6S's and very impressed. Great value.

Can't do much about the placement (see pic below). DynamicEQ is off. Thanks!

 

[everettT]

The sub is an older B&W ASW600 which I'm also using as a placeholder until I can upgrade. I'll include a picture. Center is higher than desirable but can't be avoided. I have the rear slightly elevated to point tweeter down. Speakers are all set to small and crossed at 80Hz.View attachment 58412

How high is the tweeter/mid in relation to your ears? It looks it to high, if so, you can tilt it down a few degrees to better align with you ears.

 

[TLS Guy]

How high is the tweeter/mid in relation to your ears? It looks it to high, if so, you can tilt it down a few degrees to better align with you ears.

You are correct, that is a big part of his problem. The center is too high. The TV is also too high, an over fireplace TV is a very bad idea. For one thing it is very bad for the TV, and the screen is too high for comfortable viewing.

 

[bstan]

It's a fake electric fireplace and we don't use the heat function much (if at all), so there is no concern about the TV getting damaged. I agree, in a perfect world the TV would be eye level, but I don't have that luxury, and to be honest, it's a lot easier to watch than I thought it would be (when we watch we're usually in a slightly reclined position, feet up, rather than upright). The center is slightly elevated in the back but should probably consider increasing it a little bit more. Thanks guys.

 

[lovinthehd]

Looking at the B&W lineup, did you consider the larger 3-way center HTM 71 S3?

 

[j_garcia]

I would get some of these, use the smaller ones underneath to angle it slightly down and lift it slightly and I think you'll be good. It will hardly look any different. I use them to angle mine up as my center is slightly below ear level. It works great.

 

[TLS Guy]

Looking at the B&W lineup, did you consider the larger 3-way center HTM 71 S3?

I think you have done all the simple things except one. I would do a trial with the Audyssey Eq totally disengaged. Just use it for level set and distance and nothing else.
Your speakers should be above average, and your room looks above average also. I say this, as I do not let Audyssey Eq any of my three systems, as it down grades the sound significantly. It is not a subtle downgrade, and it makes a complete hash of my AV room.

They call it room corrections. But actually I believe most rooms are pretty good. I think performing Eq at a distance with cheap mics, is not actually something to be recommended, and the technical justification for it, is definitely open to question. So you could well find that getting rid of so called Audyssey room Eq, might be just the answer you want.

One of the reasons I say this, is that Audyssey corrects at least partially for the drop in HF with distance from the speaker. This is normal and in my view should never be interfered with. That could be the reason why you find the sound harsh.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you have done all the simple things except one. I would do a trial with the Audyssey Eq totally disengaged. Just use it for level set and distance and nothing else.
Your speakers should be above average, and your room looks above average also. I say this, as I do not let Audyssey Eq any of my three systems, as it down grades the sound significantly. It is not a subtle downgrade, and it makes a complete hash of my AV room.

They call it room corrections. But actually I believe most rooms are pretty good. I think performing Eq at a distance with cheap mics, is not actually something to be recommended, and the technical justification for it, is definitely open to question. So you could well find that getting rid of so called Audyssey room Eq, might be just the answer you want.

One of the reasons I say this, is that Audyssey corrects at least partially for the drop in HF with distance from the speaker. This is normal and in my view should never be interfered with. That could be the reason why you find the sound harsh.

But why quote me about a different center, one more in line with your usual comments about them?

 

[bstan]

Looking at the B&W lineup, did you consider the larger 3-way center HTM 71 S3?

Considered it, but decided against it. It's significantly larger than the 72 and the placement in my case would require me to move the TV even higher. There are also budget considerations of course with three kids in college ; ).

 

[lovinthehd]

Considered it, but decided against it. It's significantly larger than the 72 and the placement in my case would require me to move the TV even higher. There are also budget considerations of course with three kids in college ; ).

Yeah I figured the restrictions might have won out, but the performance could well make the difference. FWIW don't know if you've seen this before on that subject https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/3-way-speakers-vs-2-way-speakers.104715/

Maybe just some more aiming of the center could help out.....

 

[Trell]

Considered it, but decided against it. It's significantly larger than the 72 and the placement in my case would require me to move the TV even higher. There are also budget considerations of course with three kids in college ; ).

You could tear down the fake fire place.

 

[bstan]

I think you have done all the simple things except one. I would do a trial with the Audyssey Eq totally disengaged. Just use it for level set and distance and nothing else.
Your speakers should be above average, and your room looks above average also. I say this, as I do not let Audyssey Eq any of my three systems, as it down grades the sound significantly. It is not a subtle downgrade, and it makes a complete hash of my AV room.

They call it room corrections. But actually I believe most rooms are pretty good. I think performing Eq at a distance with cheap mics, is not actually something to be recommended, and the technical justification for it, is definitely open to question. So you could well find that getting rid of so called Audyssey room Eq, might be just the answer you want.

One of the reasons I say this, is that Audyssey corrects at least partially for the drop in HF with distance from the speaker. This is normal and in my view should never be interfered with. That could be the reason why you find the sound harsh.

That's a good idea, I'll give it a try. Turning off the Dynamic EQ did have a positive effect on "mellowing" the voice tracks.

Let me say that I'm very happy with the performance of the system overall, the 707's sound terrific (although I do regret not splurging for the 705's). The voice tracks with the 72 center channel are markedly better than with the previous. Most people probably wouldn't think there is a problem, but I think it can be better, and if a tweek of the settings, positioning, etc will help, then that's what I'm looking to do, to get the most from what I have. Thanks.

 

[bstan]

You could tear down the fake fire place.

Every night I get on my knees in front of that of thing and say "honey, it's time to start the fire"