Please rec subs that can reproduce clean high bass, clean mid-bass, and clean deep bass as low as intended to be heard in the film, at mid-low volume

[Speakernewb100]

For HT and music. 80% HT usage, 20% music.

My HT room is half open to another room, i.e. L-shaped. The main portion of the HT is about 1900 cubic feet and the remaining portion of the L is another 1,100 cubic feet for a total of 3000 cubic feet. But there's a lot of stuff in the other part of the L space, so if you subtract the furniture it's probably more like 1,650 cubic feet in the main room and 750 in the remaining part of the L, 2,400 or 2,500 cubic feet total instead of 3,000 cubic feet. There are black velvet curtains separating the main HT part of the L from the other part. It is a room on the bottom floor of a four story house, but it is an old house with zero insulation in ceilings or and at least two of the walls, while the wall behind the projector screen, behind the sheetrock wall with 3.5 inch wood studs, is multiple yards of concrete, and I'm unsure about the last wall. I can treat with bass traps and acoustic absorption on pretty much any of the walls, and maybe the ceilings depending what is required for installation, but there is nothing but air and curtains to put anything in the opening to the L room.

Let's assume cost isn't an issue and we're just talking about what would be the ideal size for that shape and size of room. My goal for the bass I want is, considering I will not be able to play it at high volumes most of the time, that I want a sub that performs well from the lowest LFE you're supposed to hear in movies (not the stuff you're not supposed to hear) to the highest bass you want the sub(s) doing, and that the sub can do this at low and mid volumes not just high volumes. I don't know if there are subwoofers that can play low hz sounds at low volume or if they can need to be cranked up to high volume to create enough air for 5Hz and 10Hz, or how exactly that works.

Someone recommend two of this sub, https://www.audioholics.com/surements%20and%20analysis. He told me that bass needs to proliferate before it sounds good and that's why a sub with 12" drivers is a goldilocks type of size for a 20-21 foot long room like mine because the subs can be set up to face the front wall and then reflect back to the seat, for a total spread about of 30 feet or more before the bass waves reach my ears, whereas the bass waves are longer on larger drivers requiring even more room to proliferate. He said he really likes 12 inch drivers as a size and would recommend them over larger sizes. Other people have told me he has no idea what he's talking about. This guy was someone who has no home theater experience, no audio engineering degree or anything, but has decades of experience setting up subwoofers for indoor concerts and proms in small rooms, as well as for video presentations of various kinds. He has looked at subwoofer setups in rooms larger than mine.

He seemed to think the idea that the HSU could be too small was laughable, but I know some movies go below 18hz for LFE and the HSU can't seem to do that without distortion although maybe only louder than I need, I'm not clear on that. I also read that some movies have LFE on the audio track that is not actually meant to eb heard (or felt), that it got left on by mistake by the sound engineer who did not have subs that could go low enough to know it was there, or something, and that some low LFE can be unhealthy to listen to and put your body on edge. I would just want my subs to know to play the good LFE, not the unhealthy LFE, so I don't know how that would work either, or if there is any solution to that other than choosing to either get all the LFE, even the unwanted, or get none of it, without a middle ground. Since I don't know that or the other aspects of this, I joined audioholics to ask the folks who do. Thanks!

 

[lovinthehd]

Your friends' theory doesn't have a lot going for it.

Two of those subs otoh could do well. Maybe even the VTF-3 mk5 as an alternative. Chasing 5-10 hz at significant spl, not so much (can get expensive and there's not a whole lot there to begin with).

Not heard of unhealthy lfe particularly, tho.....but I suppose loud enough or with enough distortion it could be unpleasant....

 

[Speakernewb100]

Your friends' theory doesn't have a lot going for it.

Two of those subs otoh could do well. Maybe even the VTF-3 mk5 as an alternative. Chasing 5-10 hz at significant spl, not so much (can get expensive and there's not a whole lot there to begin with).

Not heard of unhealthy lfe particularly, tho.....but I suppose loud enough or with enough distortion it could be unpleasant....

Thanks. So not many movies with 5-10hz? What about 12hz or 15hz or.... basically the question is, will two VTF-2 mk5's get low enough without distortion for the LFE that does exist in more than a couple movies, or not? Apparently it is tuned to 18hz and starts to distort below there. But I guess they got a reading at 12hz and even one reading at 10hz at 100db I think, correct me if I remember the spl wrong, but Atmos reference (not that I can probably hit it with my room how it is without being too loud) asks for 115db peaks for bass I think it said, although I dont know if that is for all hz levels or only for 30hz and above or something like that.

I also dont know the opposite issue. Instead of "what if 100db is not loud enough at 12hz," it would be, what if it's still too loud? Just because a sub can hit 12hz at 100db, does that mean it can also hit 12hz at 50db? Or does it rely on getting loud in order to move enough air to actually get to 12hz?

In other words is there only an spl limit to what subs can hit at low hz, or is there also an spl minimum to what subs can hit at low? I dont just have to worry about if the subs will be loud enough at low hz, but also that they can go quiet enough. And then the distortion thing is something I have even less knowledge about. How much distortion before it's noticeable? I like tight exact bass, that can hit and then immediately disappear. Im wondering if I should have gone sealed but maybe they cant go as low, and some people I talked to said maybe ported can be quick and tight too not just sealed. Anyway, I'll look for more info from you and or others who respond. Thanks for responding.

 

[lovinthehd]

Try this thread https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page/166/

As to how bass frequencies work with our hearing and in subs you might try some of these threads/articles https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=how+do+we+hear+bass+site:audioholics.com&atb=v136-1&ia=web

Subs that can do 12 hz at 100dB would generally have no problem doing same as 50dB....the question is whether you can hear it at that level. (but 100dB at 12Hz is pretty significant to start)

The THX guidelines for speakers are 85dB average with allowance for 20dB peaks, and the LFE channel 10dB more than that....

 

[Speakernewb100]

Try this thread https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page/166/

As to how bass frequencies work with our hearing and in subs you might try some of these threads/articles https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=how+do+we+hear+bass+site:audioholics.com&atb=v136-1&ia=web

Subs that can do 12 hz at 100dB would generally have no problem doing same as 50dB....the question is whether you can hear it at that level. (but 100dB at 12Hz is pretty significant to start)

The THX guidelines for speakers are 85dB average with allowance for 20dB peaks, and the LFE channel 10dB more than that....

So to hit THX guidelines, I do want the HSU to be able to do 115db then even for LFE (85db + 20 + 10 = 115)? But if 100db is enough for me then its enough.

What about distortion levels? For 1 port mode on the left there, at what point is ther etoo much distortion? looks like I was wrong about 12hz at 100 db. 16 is already down to 97.5.

Yeah I was wrong. It was this. "One minor note: we did manage—surprisingly—to get a passing 10 Hz measurement of 81.1 dB, and that might have been due to a fleeting low noise floor moment."

I dont know what the relevance is of testing at 81.1 dB, but I assume that would be too low volume even for someone who listens at low volume? Especially if it reserves 20db for peaks, and would run at 61.1db normally for 10hz?

It sounds like volume wise, if might only work down to 15hz or something, guessing. I dont know if thats low enough but Ill check the links you left. And then the distortion level is the other question. These questions are aimed for anyone reading:

If I add a second HSU, will they combined to be able to go lower than before? Or will it just fill nulls in the room but not actually allow me to go lower at higher volume without the higher hz being too loud because if I raise the overall volume of the lower HZ that roll off badly, the higher HZ before the steep roll off will now be really loud? Will adding a second of these HSU get me where I want so long as I keep the higher HZ lower and boost the lower hz so that each HSU is putting out 61.1db for 10hz and combining to up to double that, 121.2db, or does it not work that way?

 

[Speakernewb100]

Try this thread https://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page/166/

As to how bass frequencies work with our hearing and in subs you might try some of these threads/articles https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=how+do+we+hear+bass+site:audioholics.com&atb=v136-1&ia=web

Subs that can do 12 hz at 100dB would generally have no problem doing same as 50dB....the question is whether you can hear it at that level. (but 100dB at 12Hz is pretty significant to start)

The THX guidelines for speakers are 85dB average with allowance for 20dB peaks, and the LFE channel 10dB more than that....

Well, this spreadsheet says there are 166 films with 10hz or below extension: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xSbmHNQ2E8iuNeKTgK_LAQWCB6h8Qno3JFTpLuNQbLQ/edit#gid=0

A lot of them say they go down to 1hz though? Maybe it's a typo or something otherwise seems like a lot of movies go down there. 260 16hz and below. If that's true then we should switch the focus back to what sub options are on the market that will perform optimally all the way from 1hz (or at least 5hz or 10hz) up? What are the least expensive options that can perform to the desired specs I described in the original post at the major league level? Since Im not looking for it to be able to do it super loud, there should be some options. If I wanted all that plus I wanted it at 135 db or something then I'd probably have very few, expensive options, but not needing it loud could save my wallet here. I just dont know what options to compare though.

If someone can list the 10 best value options on the market that can do what Im looking for, or however many are worth including as good products that can do it, and summarize the differences between those finalists, then I can weigh the pros and cons, research the models, and go from there. Unless people think the two HSU's can still do it somehow.

 

[lovinthehd]

How much do you like those 160 or so movies particularly to customize a system to take advantage? How much time do those films spend at ulf (ultra low frequencies)? FWIW seems many of the latest releases are cutting the lowest content out, too (some call it castrating).

One of the articles in that link/search I posted addressed the audibility of distortion at bass frequencies.

This sub can go down to 1hz http://www.rotarywoofer.com/

Generally it's going to take a lot of subwoofer to do the lowest frequencies at significant levels. Or a lot of subwoofers....I know a guy who did 16 x 18" sealed subs (diy) and he had pretty good ulf (ultra low frequency) response (and I started to follow in his footsteps somewhat with five of them, altho only built three so far). Might check out what GSG offers for diy kits for 24" drivers, saw them post something in another thread along those lines. An LLT (large low tuned ported) sub can get pretty low but can be quite large. Chasing ULF can get expensive, how much do you want to spend?

You could look thru the tests at data-bass.com to get an idea of what subs can go to the lowest frequencies with significant spl. https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=mo7lv3

If it were only so easy to get two subs to double the spl from 61 to 122 dB ....usually dual identical subs might get you in the range of an additional 2-6dB spl advantage over a single, but generally multiple subs are more about smoothing room modes than spl, but do help out in the spl/overhead area at the same time.

 

[highfigh]

Well, this spreadsheet says there are 166 films with 10hz or below extension: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xSbmHNQ2E8iuNeKTgK_LAQWCB6h8Qno3JFTpLuNQbLQ/edit#gid=0

A lot of them say they go down to 1hz though? Maybe it's a typo or something otherwise seems like a lot of movies go down there. 260 16hz and below.

And there's not a single commercial theater that uses anything as small as 12" woofers to achieve 10HZ or 16 Hz. Your room and system aren't going to do those frequencies well, if at all. Lose the idea that it's going to happen in a home theater, on less than a large budget.

You wrote "If someone can list the 10 best value options on the market that can do what I'm looking for"- that is exactly why you won't be able to have these frequencies at any usable level.

We don't hear 10Hz-16Hz, we feel it and any sensation of hearing it is because the energy moves through our bones to the ears and it takes a lot of energy to produce these frequencies at sufficient SPL to make it seem realistic. It also requires subwoofers that can produce those frequencies and with a low budget, I don't see this happening.

 

[JasonGSG]

Do you have any physical size restrictions for the subwoofers?

Whether a sub presents as musical depends on several factors -- Qts of the driver, appropriate enclosure size and tuning, placement, room modes, source media quality, level-matched integration into the rest of the system, and the list goes on. The most obvious inference you can reliably draw from comparing sealed to ported is that sealed is inefficient for sub-bass. If anything, a properly tuned ported sub is more musical because output at a given SPL requires a shallower excursion where the driver is more controlled, where its BL(x) has better symmetry, and where there's lower harmonic distortion.

Choosing between designs can be challenging... Your room isn't big at 3000^3... The choice will ultimately come down to physical size, desired output & of course money. Physical size, vented are much larger. Output, a typical vented to sealed comparison (all things equal) will see a vented design with a +10db advantage vs a sealed one. Money, you'll pay more for a sealed if you want it to compete with a vented design on even terms.

 

[JasonGSG]

My HT room is half open to another room, i.e. L-shaped. The main portion of the HT is about 1900 cubic feet and the remaining portion of the L is another 1,100 cubic feet for a total of 3000 cubic feet. But there's a lot of stuff in the other part of the L space, so if you subtract the furniture it's probably more like 1,650 cubic feet in the main room and 750 in the remaining part of the L, 2,400 or 2,500 cubic feet total instead of 3,000 cubic feet.

Response - https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

Someone recommend two of this sub, https://www.audioholics.com/surements and analysis. He told me that bass needs to proliferate before it sounds good and that's why a sub with 12" drivers is a goldilocks type of size for a 20-21 foot long room like mine because the subs can be set up to face the front wall and then reflect back to the seat, for a total spread about of 30 feet or more before the bass waves reach my ears, whereas the bass waves are longer on larger drivers requiring even more room to proliferate. He said he really likes 12 inch drivers as a size and would recommend them over larger sizes. Other people have told me he has no idea what he's talking about. This guy was someone who has no home theater experience, no audio engineering degree or anything, but has decades of experience setting up subwoofers for indoor concerts and proms in small rooms, as well as for video presentations of various kinds. He has looked at subwoofer setups in rooms larger than mine.

Response - Please don't take this person's advice.

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

data-bass.com

In other words is there only an spl limit to what subs can hit at low hz, or is there also an spl minimum to what subs can hit at low? I dont just have to worry about if the subs will be loud enough at low hz, but also that they can go quiet enough. And then the distortion thing is something I have even less knowledge about. How much distortion before it's noticeable? I like tight exact bass, that can hit and then immediately disappear. Im wondering if I should have gone sealed but maybe they cant go as low, and some people I talked to said maybe ported can be quick and tight too not just sealed. Anyway, I'll look for more info from you and or others who respond. Thanks for responding
.
Response - https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers

If I add a second HSU, will they combined to be able to go lower than before? Or will it just fill nulls in the room but not actually allow me to go lower at higher volume without the higher hz being too loud because if I raise the overall volume of the lower HZ that roll off badly, the higher HZ before the steep roll off will now be really loud? Will adding a second of these HSU get me where I want so long as I keep the higher HZ lower and boost the lower hz so that each HSU is putting out 61.1db for 10hz and combining to up to double that, 121.2db, or does it not work that way?

Response - Multiple subs will not magically allow for lower dig on the frequency scale. The purpose of multiple subs is to achieve a smoother response or more even bass to a larger percentage of the room. If you have subwoofer X & is capable of output Y at Z Hz the addition of another equal subwoofer would maintain the available frequency spectrum while adding 4-6db output which you would ultimately convert to headroom (lower distortion, better dynamics) post calibration.

Well, this spreadsheet says there are 166 films with 10hz or below extension:

Response - But do they list the combined duration of the scenes below 12.5Hz? 12.5Hz represents less than 2% of your available HT media content & 0% of your audio reproduction (unless you're into some strange woodwind instruments or bass-intensive demonstration material, either way, I'm not here to judge but... Yuck).

If someone can list the 10 best value options on the market that can do what I'm looking for, or however many are worth including as good products that can do it, and summarize the differences between those finalists, then I can weigh the pros and cons, research the models, and go from there. Unless people think the two HSUs can still do it somehow.

Response - Rather than list the 10 best options I'll list the manufacturers whose attention is deserved & worthy of your research time...
JTR, Funk Audio, Seaton, SVS, PowerSound Audio, Rythmik, HSU, Monolith (+- a few others) & of course if budget is of concern (usually is) then some kit-based manufacturers like DIYSG & ourselves at GSG Audio Design.

 

[JasonGSG]

How about a pair of these... Marty SQL 15" Enclosures, with Stereo Integrity SQL drivers (very nice) & a solid 1200w+ feeding them. >115dB @ 24hz (full reference movie output, LFE channel)

Or larger -

>115dB @ 22hz (full reference movie output, LFE channel)

Or even larger -

>115dB @ 20hz (full reference movie output, LFE channel)

 

[shadyJ]

The demands for palpable bass below 16Hz or so skyrocket so rapidly that it isn't worth chasing unless you are a hardcore home theater enthusiast. The VTF-2 mk5 is one of the most affordable subs that can offer good deep bass performance. I would say the next best sub for chasing deep bass would be the Hsu VTF15h mk2 which has a 16Hz tuning frequency. Going lower than that gets ridiculous though. I think the Rythmik FV15HP has a 12.5Hz tuning frequency, but you are asking too much of that port for that kind of sub at that point. I wouldn't get one expecting competent performance at that frequency unless you were to get multiples.

If I were you, I would make it simple and just get another VTF-2. If you are after deeper bass, you need to step up to much larger and more powerful subs for that infrasonic bass to be significant, and then we are talking about large ported 15"s at least.

 

[Danzilla31]

Rythmik FV 18's or Rythmik FV25HP duals of either would be a good start since you want good low bass performance at moderate volumes I'd recommend strongly the FV25HPs

 

[Speakernewb100]

And there's not a single commercial theater that uses anything as small as 12" woofers to achieve 10HZ or 16 Hz. Your room and system aren't going to do those frequencies well, if at all. Lose the idea that it's going to happen in a home theater, on less than a large budget.

Yeah I figured the HSU's can't do it, so I'm wondering what can? Do you happen to know the cheapest/smallest ones out there that can do it? If that means 30 inch and $50,000, then that's the answer, but until I hear what it is then I have no idea. Im guessing it will be more like 18 inch subs that cost in the $1,000 to $2,500 range, I dont know if at the lower or higher end of that range. I need to hear what the options are and then I can know if I can afford it and fit it in my room. My HT has a fairly hefty budget but it's running low at this point. Still maybe I could sell something else, go cheaper in another area, to get better subs. I just need to know what it will cost and then I can weigh my options. Without that info of what the options are, I can't really weigh them either way.

that is exactly why you won't be able to have these frequencies at any usable level.

I didn't understand this part. I know you can't hear the super low LFE, only feel it, but that's what I meant, to feel it. When you say "useable level" does that mean they have to go loud to be able to produce low the low HZ? Because I asked if the subs also have an issue with producing low hz at low volumes, not just an issue reaching high volumes, and I thought the answer was no. If it's no and I plan to use them at low-mid volume, then shouldn't that be useable or what do you mean? Not arguing with you, hope my tone is not coming off differently than I mean which happens a lot over the internet, just asking for clarification so we dont talk past each other.

We don't hear 10Hz-16Hz, we feel it and any sensation of hearing it is because the energy moves through our bones to the ears and it takes a lot of energy to produce these frequencies at sufficient SPL to make it seem realistic. It also requires subwoofers that can produce those frequencies and with a low budget, I don't see this happening.

Are you basically saying that while any sub that can hit say 30hz at 120spl will have an even easier time hitting 30hz at 50spl, that for the super low hz like say 5hz, this is no longer the case, and there will now be an issue not only reaching 5hz at high volumes, but also at low volumes? So it requires high volume to hit 5hz, even for a sub that can do 5hz really well at 125 spl? Or are you saying no, any sub that can hit 5hz at 125spl can also do it at low volumes even easier, it's just that you wont feel the sensation unless you do it at high spl?

If you meant the second, then I could probably do a custom curve where the audible frequencies are set to low-mid volume, but the low frequencies volume is raised because now that I can no longer hear it, only feel it, the high volume wont bother my ears or make too much noise.

Plus most people dont like subs at only mid volume or low volume either. They will say that to enjoy a sub playing 40hz bass, or any audible hz, you need it at reference, or close to reference, to get the proper experience. So how is this any different? If mid volume or low volume is, for me, at least better than nothing when it comes to the audible frequencies, then why wouldnt mid volume or low volume be better than nothing for the super low frequencies?

The demands for palpable bass below 16Hz or so skyrocket so rapidly that it isn't worth chasing unless you are a hardcore home theater enthusiast. The VTF-2 mk5 is one of the most affordable subs that can offer good deep bass performance. I would say the next best sub for chasing deep bass would be the Hsu VTF15h mk2 which has a 16Hz tuning frequency. Going lower than that gets ridiculous though. I think the Rythmik FV15HP has a 12.5Hz tuning frequency, but you are asking too much of that port for that kind of sub at that point. I wouldn't get one expecting competent performance at that frequency unless you were to get multiples.

If I were you, I would make it simple and just get another VTF-2. If you are after deeper bass, you need to step up to much larger and more powerful subs for that infrasonic bass to be significant, and then we are talking about large ported 15"s at least.

I was planning dual subs anyway, the question is which ones to get.

As far as the FV15HP, I think they have sealed models also. It would also be interesting to hear what are the cheapest sealed models that can go really low, since maybe sealed will have tighter bass also, some people say anyway. I'm wondering at what price point you can get the really top of the line subs. Do they start to become available at $1,000 or $2,000 per sub, or not until $10,000 or what? I just want to hear a list of the best subs as you go up in price and a couple sentence pros/cons summary of each, what you are getting as you go up the prices, and then we can see from those descriptions at what point the models that can go that low start to become available.

Rythmik FV 18's or Rythmik FV25HP duals of either would be a good start since you want good low bass performance at moderate volumes I'd recommend strongly the FV25HPs

Thanks, interesting. This unique tech that it has, is it comparable to a ported sub or sealed or in between? How low is it tuned and how is the mid bass and high bass to go with the low bass? Is it as precise as it is deep and loud?

To get rid of room nulls, it might be preferable to get two separate 15's that I could place in different spots, but maybe then it would lose some performance. Someone asked if I have space, I think the only places I will have space for like 18" subs will be either the back corners of the room, or center back of the room under the projection shelf, or the subs laying sideways underneath the projector screen, in between the center speaker under the screen and the right and left towers to the sides of the screen.

So my front stage could look like:

L.... S U B .... C ..... S U B .... R

with the subs laying sideways. Or I could have one sub on either side of the center channel, and the other in one of the three places back of the room. And I can move the subs a couple feet left or right either closer to the center channel or closer to the towers.

Depending how low to the floor my screen goes though, an 18" might be too wide even laying sideways, 15" might be my max.

That Rhythmik looks great though. Is that the cheapest option to achieve this? That's like $1,775 per sub. Are there any closer to $1,000 per sub if you buy two that can perform like Im asking? Probably not but just asking. Any competitors to the Rhythmik, particularly separates? It's a great recommendation, just looking to hear all the top options out there in the price range and the pros/cons so I can compare. Unless there's one clear choice that everyone agrees on, and nothing else worth considering, then that's different, but usually there are a handful of options worth considering, usually, at least for speakers and projectors, maybe its different with subs I dont know.

Thanks for your guys help.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah I figured the HSU's can't do it, so I'm wondering what can? Do you happen to know the cheapest/smallest ones out there that can do it? If that means 30 inch and $50,000, then that's the answer, but until I hear what it is then I have no idea. Im guessing it will be more like 18 inch subs that cost in the $1,000 to $2,500 range, I dont know if at the lower or higher end of that range. I need to hear what the options are and then I can know if I can afford it and fit it in my room. My HT has a fairly hefty budget but it's running low at this point. Still maybe I could sell something else, go cheaper in another area, to get better subs. I just need to know what it will cost and then I can weigh my options. Without that info of what the options are, I can't really weigh them either way.



I didn't understand this part. I know you can't hear the super low LFE, only feel it, but that's what I meant, to feel it. When you say "useable level" does that mean they have to go loud to be able to produce low the low HZ? Because I asked if the subs also have an issue with producing low hz at low volumes, not just an issue reaching high volumes, and I thought the answer was no. If it's no and I plan to use them at low-mid volume, then shouldn't that be useable or what do you mean? Not arguing with you, hope my tone is not coming off differently than I mean which happens a lot over the internet, just asking for clarification so we dont talk past each other.



Are you basically saying that while any sub that can hit say 30hz at 120spl will have an even easier time hitting 30hz at 50spl, that for the super low hz like say 5hz, this is no longer the case, and there will now be an issue not only reaching 5hz at high volumes, but also at low volumes? So it requires high volume to hit 5hz, even for a sub that can do 5hz really well at 125 spl? Or are you saying no, any sub that can hit 5hz at 125spl can also do it at low volumes even easier, it's just that you wont feel the sensation unless you do it at high spl?

If you meant the second, then I could probably do a custom curve where the audible frequencies are set to low-mid volume, but the low frequencies volume is raised because now that I can no longer hear it, only feel it, the high volume wont bother my ears or make too much noise.

Plus most people dont like subs at only mid volume or low volume either. They will say that to enjoy a sub playing 40hz bass, or any audible hz, you need it at reference, or close to reference, to get the proper experience. So how is this any different? If mid volume or low volume is, for me, at least better than nothing when it comes to the audible frequencies, then why wouldnt mid volume or low volume be better than nothing for the super low frequencies?


I was planning dual subs anyway, the question is which ones to get.

As far as the FV15HP, I think they have sealed models also. It would also be interesting to hear what are the cheapest sealed models that can go really low, since maybe sealed will have tighter bass also, some people say anyway. I'm wondering at what price point you can get the really top of the line subs. Do they start to become available at $1,000 or $2,000 per sub, or not until $10,000 or what? I just want to hear a list of the best subs as you go up in price and a couple sentence pros/cons summary of each, what you are getting as you go up the prices, and then we can see from those descriptions at what point the models that can go that low start to become available.




Thanks, interesting. This unique tech that it has, is it comparable to a ported sub or sealed or in between? How low is it tuned and how is the mid bass and high bass to go with the low bass? Is it as precise as it is deep and loud?

To get rid of room nulls, it might be preferable to get two separate 15's that I could place in different spots, but maybe then it would lose some performance. Someone asked if I have space, I think the only places I will have space for like 18" subs will be either the back corners of the room, or center back of the room under the projection shelf, or the subs laying sideways underneath the projector screen, in between the center speaker under the screen and the right and left towers to the sides of the screen.

So my front stage could look like:

L.... S U B .... C ..... S U B .... R

with the subs laying sideways. Or I could have one sub on either side of the center channel, and the other in one of the three places back of the room. And I can move the subs a couple feet left or right either closer to the center channel or closer to the towers.

Depending how low to the floor my screen goes though, an 18" might be too wide even laying sideways, 15" might be my max.

That Rhythmik looks great though. Is that the cheapest option to achieve this? That's like $1,775 per sub. Are there any closer to $1,000 per sub if you buy two that can perform like Im asking? Probably not but just asking. Any competitors to the Rhythmik, particularly separates? It's a great recommendation, just looking to hear all the top options out there in the price range and the pros/cons so I can compare. Unless there's one clear choice that everyone agrees on, and nothing else worth considering, then that's different, but usually there are a handful of options worth considering, usually, at least for speakers and projectors, maybe its different with subs I dont know.

Thanks for your guys help.

I think one thing you’re overlooking is that there isn’t that much content below 20hz. Yes, there are movies that go down to 1hz, like hacksaw ridge, but playing that back is short of impossible. To do that, or even anything in the single digits takes MANY multiples of sealed subs(which btw can take as many as four to equal the output of a comparable ported sub at 20hz), and obscene amounts of EQ and amplifier power. We’re talking thousands and thousands of dollars, even if you DIY them. Based on your mention of budget, and room space, you’re not getting there. And again, content is very little. There are options like BEQ, but that requires a minidsp, and the learning curve is kinda steep. Respectfully, it seems that you don’t quite have the experience for that, and that you’re a little bit stuck on some arbitrary numbers which while are awesome to experience, aren’t worth chasing until you have more experience, and know what you’re looking for, and how to get there.
As far as audibility, just like “chest punch” is a function of spl, so is TR(tactile response). That means to shake your couch with 16hz bass, it has to be loud, very loud. I believe @lovinthehd posted a link to hearing curves.
Imo, the subs recommended above will give great results. Rythmiks 12hz tune is plenty low enough, and even the HSUs would satisfy most users. GSG is hard to beat as well, and there’s just something about a devastator…
Honestly for your budget, I would look at a pair of great ported subs from Rythmik, HSU, monolith, PSA, or gsg. Then build a BOSS riser, or simply add a TR device like crowsons, or buttkickers to shake your couch. Imo, that would fit the budget much better than the direction you’re looking.
As for commercial subs with external amplification, look at RBH. @Danzilla31 has experience with them AND Rythmik FV18’s and is always happy to share.
There just aren’t any commercial subs around that will do what you want without spending many multitudes of what you’ve mentioned, and for limited use too.

Edit: Also, the “pro” guy that has no practical HT experience should not give ANYONE advice, and should be fired immediately. All the crap he told you is nonsense, and I think TLS guy would say he’s talking from the back of his neck. I’d say out his a$$.

 

[highfigh]

Do you happen to know the cheapest/smallest ones out there that can do it? If that means 30 inch and $50,000, then that's the answer, but until I hear what it is then I have no idea. Im guessing it will be more like 18 inch subs that cost in the $1,000 to $2,500 range, I dont know if at the lower or higher end of that range. I need to hear what the options are and then I can know if I can afford it and fit it in my room. My HT has a fairly hefty budget but it's running low at this point. Still maybe I could sell something else, go cheaper in another area, to get better subs. I just need to know what it will cost and then I can weigh my options. Without that info of what the options are, I can't really weigh them either way.

Without knowing your budget, it's impossible to make a recommendation.

I didn't understand this part. I know you can't hear the super low LFE, only feel it, but that's what I meant, to feel it. When you say "useable level" does that mean they have to go loud to be able to produce low the low HZ? Because I asked if the subs also have an issue with producing low hz at low volumes, not just an issue reaching high volumes, and I thought the answer was no. If it's no and I plan to use them at low-mid volume, then shouldn't that be useable or what do you mean? Not arguing with you, hope my tone is not coming off differently than I mean which happens a lot over the internet, just asking for clarification so we dont talk past each other.

If you want to feel the low end, you don't need 10Hz-16Hz- you can feel 80Hz if the speakers are able to do it well. The low E string on a bass guitar, tuned to the frequency that is normally used, is 41.2Hz, but what we 'hear' as the note is actually the first harmonic, at 82.4Hz. Even the notes on the G string can be felt and their frequencies are significantly higher, so 'feeling' the bass has to be well-defined if the speakers are to be deemed 'the right ones' for the system. I can feel bass from my system and the measured response starts to drop off around 38Hz, but I don't want/need to have strong low end because I did car audio for a long time and became tired of constantly being exposed to it.

Usable level is different for everyone, but there's no good reason for the system to be operated 'balls out', constantly. Your hearing will suffer because of it and that can't be reversed. Also, it's difficult & expensive to achieve. I would recommend finding a maximum SPL for your use (this isn't the level used to impress others) and work from there.

The frequency balance will definitely change with SPL because we don't hear all frequencies equally and our sensitivity to various frequencies changes with SPL. Look into Fletcher-Munson Equl Loudness Curves and the later versions that apply- it will show the inverse of the 'happy face' equalizer setting.

Are you basically saying that while any sub that can hit say 30hz at 120spl will have an even easier time hitting 30hz at 50spl, that for the super low hz like say 5hz, this is no longer the case, and there will now be an issue not only reaching 5hz at high volumes, but also at low volumes? So it requires high volume to hit 5hz, even for a sub that can do 5hz really well at 125 spl? Or are you saying no, any sub that can hit 5hz at 125spl can also do it at low volumes even easier, it's just that you wont feel the sensation unless you do it at high spl?

The SPL is less important than the physical characteristics of the woofer and its enclosure. If these are actually able to produce extremely low frequencies, you won't actually need to operate at high SPL, although you may want to on occasion. If you have been near a truck that produces extremely low frequencies, you were probably annoyed, at some point. That's partially because it's just a physical reaction to those frequencies and FYI- some countries use extremely low frequency sounds for riot control and it can actually make people nauseated.

If you meant the second, then I could probably do a custom curve where the audible frequencies are set to low-mid volume, but the low frequencies volume is raised because now that I can no longer hear it, only feel it, the high volume wont bother my ears or make too much noise.

Plus most people dont like subs at only mid volume or low volume either. They will say that to enjoy a sub playing 40hz bass, or any audible hz, you need it at reference, or close to reference, to get the proper experience. So how is this any different? If mid volume or low volume is, for me, at least better than nothing when it comes to the audible frequencies, then why wouldnt mid volume or low volume be better than nothing for the super low frequencies?

'Reference levels' are for testing- the operating level is determined by the user(s).

I was planning dual subs anyway, the question is which ones to get.

As far as the FV15HP, I think they have sealed models also. It would also be interesting to hear what are the cheapest sealed models that can go really low, since maybe sealed will have tighter bass also, some people say anyway. I'm wondering at what price point you can get the really top of the line subs. Do they start to become available at $1,000 or $2,000 per sub, or not until $10,000 or what? I just want to hear a list of the best subs as you go up in price and a couple sentence pros/cons summary of each, what you are getting as you go up the prices, and then we can see from those descriptions at what point the models that can go that low start to become available.

In order to use sealed woofer enclosures at extremely low frequencies, it's best to use multiple drivers. I did a car stereo system that had four Boston Acoustics Pro 10" drivers that used one single enclosure volume, rather than individual boxes. Once everything had been installed, the RTA showed a straight line from 25Hz- 64Hz where the low pass crossover handed the mid-bass to the bandpass drivers. This was using the 2dB/division setting, so the response was very smooth- far batter than I had expected. The low end was solid at all levels, not just cranked.

It's going to take a lot of searching to find the right drivers at the budget you select.

Thanks, interesting. This unique tech that it has, is it comparable to a ported sub or sealed or in between? How low is it tuned and how is the mid bass and high bass to go with the low bass? Is it as precise as it is deep and loud?

Are you asking about the HSU? I haven't heard their subs, so I'll have to see what they're doing.

To get rid of room nulls, it might be preferable to get two separate 15's that I could place in different spots, but maybe then it would lose some performance. Someone asked if I have space, I think the only places I will have space for like 18" subs will be either the back corners of the room, or center back of the room under the projection shelf, or the subs laying sideways underneath the projector screen, in between the center speaker under the screen and the right and left towers to the sides of the screen.

At some point, you'll run out of options for placement and live with the results you get- don't rule out the possibility that a 'happy accident' will result and that can save a lot of time/effort/expense because you might find that SIB-KISS is the best way to go about this.

So my front stage could look like:

L.... S U B .... C ..... S U B .... R

with the subs laying sideways. Or I could have one sub on either side of the center channel, and the other in one of the three places back of the room. And I can move the subs a couple feet left or right either closer to the center channel or closer to the towers.

It won't matter if the subs are laying sideways, or not- they'll produce low end in any position. Facing them into a corner or the back wall can influence the sound, however. As an example, I have a stereo receiver in my garage that's not particularly powerful. It's old, has generally been unheated in Winter and hot during Summer, but the low end is ridiculous, considering the fact that the speakers are 8" two-way. Knowing that the bass is improved when a speaker is placed in a corner, this has worked extremely well and even though the drivers are in small boxes, they sound really good. Since these were assembled close to 40 years ago, the brand and model of the drivers is immaterial but the fact remains- happy accidents can and do happen. When I move, I'm taking these speakers with me.

OTOH, before I bought my house, I rented from a friend and he's the one who's responsible for me getting a job at a local stereo store. He had a system in the basement that was decent, but the bass wasn't what I would call 'great'. At one point I bought a large woofer and we added it to the system and that DID make the bass 'great'. Later, the guy who had the other woofer that we bought as a pair (I got one, he got the other) became available and it was added to the basement system and THAT made the bass spectacular. It's also the reason I don't chase great bass- I had that and it's not going to happen again. It didn't matter if the music was loud, soft or in-between- it could be felt because the woofers we able to hit <20Hz frequencies.

I just wish I could have moved them into my house- they wouldn't fit through the doors.

 

[Speakernewb100]

I think one thing you’re overlooking is that there isn’t that much content below 20hz. Yes, there are movies that go down to 1hz, like hacksaw ridge, but playing that back is short of impossible. To do that, or even anything in the single digits takes MANY multiples of sealed subs(which btw can take as many as four to equal the output of a comparable ported sub at 20hz), and obscene amounts of EQ and amplifier power. We’re talking thousands and thousands of dollars, even if you DIY them. Based on your mention of budget, and room space, you’re not getting there. And again, content is very little. There are options like BEQ, but that requires a minidsp, and the learning curve is kinda steep. Respectfully, it seems that you don’t quite have the experience for that, and that you’re a little bit stuck on some arbitrary numbers which while are awesome to experience, aren’t worth chasing until you have more experience, and know what you’re looking for, and how to get there.
As far as audibility, just like “chest punch” is a function of spl, so is TR(tactile response). That means to shake your couch with 16hz bass, it has to be loud, very loud. I believe @lovinthehd posted a link to hearing curves.
Imo, the subs recommended above will give great results. Rythmiks 12hz tune is plenty low enough, and even the HSUs would satisfy most users. GSG is hard to beat as well, and there’s just something about a devastator…
Honestly for your budget, I would look at a pair of great ported subs from Rythmik, HSU, monolith, PSA, or gsg. Then build a BOSS riser, or simply add a TR device like crowsons, or buttkickers to shake your couch. Imo, that would fit the budget much better than the direction you’re looking.
As for commercial subs with external amplification, look at RBH. @Danzilla31 has experience with them AND Rythmik FV18’s and is always happy to share.
There just aren’t any commercial subs around that will do what you want without spending many multitudes of what you’ve mentioned, and for limited use too.

Edit: Also, the “pro” guy that has no practical HT experience should not give ANYONE advice, and should be fired immediately. All the crap he told you is nonsense, and I think TLS guy would say he’s talking from the back of his neck. I’d say out his a$$.

Thanks. It sounds like chasing the low hz might be beyond what I want to spend right now. However, just for the sake of gaining the knowledge for the future, can you clarify the focus on whether the low HZ spl is enough to shake the couch? I think I've also heard descriptions that you can feel the air moving, it makes your spine tingle or something, maybe not spine but... you feel some sort of energy moving through the room, when the movie is 5-15hz or around that area, that is inaudible and different from the bass at say 30hz. Are those sensations also something you only get at a high enough SPL to shake the couch, or could I still gain that experience from having low hz subs in my room even if I play them below an SPL that would be able to shake the couch?

 

[lovinthehd]

If you just want to shake your seat, look into tactile transducers you can mount to the seat itself perhaps.

 

[Speakernewb100]

As far as hearing loss, I will be using this very regularly so that's a good point, I would always want to play it low enough that even high usage will not cause hearing loss over time. If the ears more sensitive to bass volumes than non-bass volumes, I should learn what volume to keep the bass below to avoid hearing loss. I mean, I would assume with non-bass at least that if it's not uncomfortable to listen to, then it wont cause damage, but if you're suggesting with bass it could feel comfortable, but actually still be bad for your ears over time, then I should look out for that. You may not have meant that is the case though, Im not sure.

The SPL is less important than the physical characteristics of the woofer and its enclosure. If these are actually able to produce extremely low frequencies, you won't actually need to operate at high SPL, although you may want to on occasion. If you have been near a truck that produces extremely low frequencies, you were probably annoyed, at some point. That's partially because it's just a physical reaction to those frequencies and FYI- some countries use extremely low frequency sounds for riot control and it can actually make people nauseated.

Does this suggest that even if I could achieve a sub setup that would be able to accurately play every 1hz - 15hz movie scenes, I still would not want to do it because it's unhealthy or can make people nauseated? Or is that only these specific riot control low hz sounds but not low hz sounds they put in movies?

In general, I want to be very health conscious so I'm glad you brought up these questions. Are there any health risks in general I should be aware of when shopping for subs, that is different than watching TV with normal sound like built in TV speakers, or different even than bedlayer speakers in a surround set up? With those, it would only damage your hearing or make you sick if you blasted it to the point of making your ears uncomfortable. I dont know if bass is different or not.

Can you tell me SIB-KISS is?

 

[lovinthehd]

Playing significant ULF at low spl just doesn't compute.