A First Listen - DejaVu 5.1 up music mixer and Steely Dan’s Aja

R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
(Not sure what forum this fits, but it is very exciting news. For upmixing music to 5.1 this is the only thing better than Penteo)

A First Listen - DejaVu 5.1 up music mixer and Steely Dan’s Aja

I recently attended the public debut of a new real-time stereo to surround up mix algorithm designed specifically for music by the name of DejaVu. The event was playing Steely Dan’s album Aja through the DejaVu real time up mixer. This new algorithm has been developed by Frank Foti (a well known audio processing guru in the broadcast world). The name ‘DejaVu’ refers to the phenomenon where listening to a familiar song creates the phenomenon of “hearing it for the first time” since the up mix reveals details that were previously hidden in the mix.

First some historical context. Many here will recall a lot of excitement when the Penteo up mix process was demoed back in about 2006. It was, at that time, a process oriented approach that yielded impressive results. The original process required considerable manual effort to optimize the source material prior running it through the up mixer. Penteo upmixed content played an important role in the first FM surround broadcasts in the early summer of 2007 at WZLX in Boston https://www.radioworld.com/miscellaneous/wzlx-programming-a-surround-station.

A real-time version of Penteo was demonstrated at the National Association of Broadcasters Show in 2009. Ultimately, the company opted to abandon real time applications, and instead produced a pro-tools plugin. It is still a very well regarded algorithm, though somewhat variable depending on the quality of the source material.

Beginning in 2005 this author was lucky to hear a lot of surround material (both native surround and manual Penteo up mixes made by John Wheeler, Penteo’s founder) as part of demonstrations of the technology that ultimately became MPEG Surround streaming. There was hope at the time that FM digital HD radio might embrace surround transmission, but alas that never came to be, other than the WZLX demo mentioned above. However, I became hooked on surround music, as well as aware that some of the up-mixed material was better than some of the commercial 5.1 releases. Ever since that time I have chased the mirage of a quality up mix algorithm in the form of a real time up-mix device that would reliably work on a range of material. As part of this quest, I have done considerable research into the origins of various up-mix algorithms, especially Penteo. I even found the open source pieces that were part of the original Penteo algorithm. I even considered hiring a friend to port that over to a DSP platform for me. I also learned that its weak point is subtle differences in the Left and Right source; for example different tape bias settings between the two channels, tape splices, head azimuth, etc,.

A few years back I heard through various contacts that Frank Foti was discretely showing something along these lines to a number of well regarded people in the music industry. I regularly put my ears to the rail listening for this possible technology coming down the track. In the fall of 2021 I became aware that there was something coming together.

Finally I got word of the public debut of a technology to be released by Foti’s new company, Syndicate of Sounds - https://syndicateofsounds.com/. The debut was to be at a club in Cleveland called The Music Box on February 4th. I immediately arranged to travel to Cleveland to attend the demo. Immersive DejaVu album sessions will now be a monthly attraction at the venue https://musicboxcle.com/immersive/.

I then contacted Frank and he was kind enough to send me 2 demo clips for me to audition in my home theater, one of them being a song that I had listened to the Penteo version hundreds of times. I was as impressed as I had hoped. I was lucky enough to arrange a meeting with Foti before the event, and got to listen to about an hour’s worth of assorted material at his lab. He also shared with me some stories about his journey to creating this marvel. He shared that after years of experimentation, that he concluded that his goal should be to concentrate on the center channel. That if he could get that locked down image wise, with stability and full fidelity, that the rest would fall into place. He has achieved that. Imaging is rock stable, and channel to channel isolation is exceptional (both aurally and when viewed on a meter panel).

At the Music Box Aja demo I was unable to get tickets anywhere close to the sweet spot. My seat was nearly directly below the left front speaker. The stage was mostly empty except for a few chairs where Frank and the owner of the club led a discussion with Gary Katz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Katz) the producer of Steely Dan’s Aja, shared stories about his career and about the band. Once the album began it sounded like the band was there on the stage, with certain percussion and backup instruments floating around me with great detail. They sounded like they were part of the performance playing on the stage, but with a spaciality that made them so much easier to perceive. Very similar to some of my favorite surround mixes, but created in real time from a stereo source.

Seated next to me at the same table were a number of big Steely Dan fans. I struck up a conversation with a couple who had come to the event from Pittsburgh. They were long time Steely Dan fans, and had recently listened to Aja several times. Before the event began, I told them a bit of what I knew about the technology and its creator, and would hear. I also what the DejaVus name represented. After the album I spoke to him during the intermission and I asked if he had heard anything new, and he said “yes”. Lost in the mix no longer.

After Aja additional material was demoed.

Stay tuned (as we radio folks like to say) for an Interview with Frank Foti.

Full disclosure - the author is a former employee of Syndicate of Sounds co-founder Frank Foti. He has no current affiliation with Foti or Syndicate of Sounds. The opinions expressed are his own.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Gaucho is one of my favorite DVD-As. Amazing dynamics and a good multichannel mix. I was not able to get a copy of Aja at the time, but they're still around, just at a higher price now.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
Gaucho is one of my favorite DVD-As. Amazing dynamics and a good multichannel mix. I was not able to get a copy of Aja at the time, but they're still around, just at a higher price now.
The cost and availability of good surround music content remains a challenge. Once my long period of underemployment ended I began adding music, but I have a budget of under $25 each.

Having had a tast of very good non-gimicky upmixed content has made finding such technology a hold grail for me. Luckily I have been able to participate in beta testing 2 DejaVu products and love every second of music through it. I have just a bit of final tweaking before I share the interview I conducted recently with the inventor, Frank Foti.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
At long last, the interview I had with Frank Foti has been published. Keep in mind that this is all targeted to surround music lovers. Surround content is hard to com by. DejaVu allows you to better listen to existing stereo content. Keep in mind, most modern rock/popular music is not "real" as far as a performance captured in a real place at a specific time. It is a fabrication. So the upmixer is about extracting more from that creation. This is generally the way most 5.1 audio releases are mixed. Yes, there are classical mixes that are attempting to create a better rendition of a particular performance in a specific place. That is not what this is about. This is about rendering a recording in a way you can enjoy it better.

Also keep in mind that the audio space and the A/V space only partially intersect. Even the language is not identical. You can quiblle all you want about details (including Foti's use of the term "immersive" but that really isn't the point. Also keep in mind that in the pro-world speakers are always matched and no delay is used. In my current set-up I have no choice but to use delay as my rear speakers are wireless and without delay it just wouldn't work.

Now that there's software with the algorithm (including a free demo version) I would love to hear what others think. I was always pretty impressed with Penteo music upmixes. DejaVu definitely raises the bar. For me, there's no going back to stereo for music. As soon as the hardware version is available this is going in my car.

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
While I do like my surround music (and movies), and agree that it can be hard to source, and am open to new upmixers.....how would one implement yours particularly in a typical multich setup?
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
At long last, the interview I had with Frank Foti has been published. Keep in mind that this is all targeted to surround music lovers. Surround content is hard to com by. DejaVu allows you to better listen to existing stereo content. Keep in mind, most modern rock/popular music is not "real" as far as a performance captured in a real place at a specific time. It is a fabrication. So the upmixer is about extracting more from that creation. This is generally the way most 5.1 audio releases are mixed. Yes, there are classical mixes that are attempting to create a better rendition of a particular performance in a specific place. That is not what this is about. This is about rendering a recording in a way you can enjoy it better.

Also keep in mind that the audio space and the A/V space only partially intersect. Even the language is not identical. You can quiblle all you want about details (including Foti's use of the term "immersive" but that really isn't the point. Also keep in mind that in the pro-world speakers are always matched and no delay is used. In my current set-up I have no choice but to use delay as my rear speakers are wireless and without delay it just wouldn't work.

Now that there's software with the algorithm (including a free demo version) I would love to hear what others think. I was always pretty impressed with Penteo music upmixes. DejaVu definitely raises the bar. For me, there's no going back to stereo for music. As soon as the hardware version is available this is going in my car.

Thanks for posting this, I listen in MCH about 80% of the time. I use the X-Box to upmix to DTS and then feed that to my processor and listen via 9.2.7, great stuff. I will check this out.
Did you buy the licenses for PC? $795?
 
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R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
While I do like my surround music (and movies), and agree that it can be hard to source, and am open to new upmixers.....how would one implement yours particularly in a typical multich setup?
Hopefully when word gets around we will see it in receivers. In fact that's my goal as a fan of the tech! Its the main reason I have been sharing about it.

I have implemented it in two ways, both involve a PC. I beta tested the Telos streaming version, but that makes it a bit more complex than using the Angry Audio Ncircl software.

I don't particularly want a computer as part of my AV system. I had to give up that dislike to get this working. It was a worthwhile compromise. If you already have a PC as a source, then you are ahead of the game (it must have an HDMI output to keep things simple)

I have run the nCircle software on both an older MacBook Pro as well as a Widows Mini PC. In both cases the software was using close to 100 of the CPU power. If I did much other than leave it in the background audible breakups occured. Since this was intended to be a dedicated PC for the task at hand that hasn't been an issue.

So the biggest requirement for the PC is HDMI output (for the MacBook this was a lightning to HDMI dongle). HDMI is by far the best way to get the 5.1 out of the PC and into the AVR. DolbyLive sound cards have pretty much disappeared, but that was always a bit of a hack anyway.

For audio files the signal path is as follows:

Player (in this case VLC) capable of playing the source file plays the source. VLC can also play internet streams and I use it to listen to Internet audio quite often. This is configured to output to a USB sound card. The sound card has optcial TosLink/SPDIF Input/Output. I have the optical output connected back to the optical input. I have it running at 48kHz.

The nCircl software is configured to accept audio input from the sound card. It is then configured to output to the Monitor/HDMI audio output that is connected to the AVR. This requires some configuration, you have to map each output from the software to an associated HDMI channel. That is a one-time configuration.

Best not to reboot or Windows may re-assign the audio I/O. Everything is stable enough I can go for months without rebooting though.

NOTES:
*Computers I have used successfully:

MacBook Pro 2010; 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo; 8 GB DDR3 RAM; MacOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra)

Hyundai Mini PC; Intel Celeron N4020 CPU 1.10GHz 64 BIT; 4.0 GB RAM; WINDOWS 10 PRO 21H2.
This cost me $178.58 including the optional 240 GB SSD drive.

*There are virtual sound card "cables" that could replace my looped back sound card. I had mixed results with the one I tried on the Win PC, but your results may vary. One advantage to my current setup is that it can accept analog input (my turntable) just by unplugging the optical cable. Just a bit kludgy, but I rarely listen to records, normally I would be ripping them.

*USB Sound card is an ART usbPhono+. Once I took care of a typical ground loop issue this is the quietest phone preamp I have ever heard!

*One beauty of using this as a real-time upmixer is that I need not take all my audio files and process them. I leave them as stereo and simply play them.

*One downside to this approach is that PC's make a clunky AV device. Some nice ways around this is to get a suitable bluetooth keyboard. I like the Rii mini i8 I got from microcenter.

*The other downside to this approach is that audio from outside the PC is not easily run through the system in digital form. For example I have a Zidoo I use for streaming Netflix and Youtube. I could run these off sources the new PC, but even with the bluetooth keyboard it's kind of clunky. Same goes for the CD player. However I have a CD drive connected to the PC. I could probably feed these optically into the sound card, but I would need a switcher of some kind. However, I rarely listen to music on Youtube or Netflix. For these video sources I am content to stereo, or one of the upmixers in my AVR,
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for posting this, I listen in MCH about 80% of the time. I use the X-Box to upmix to DTS and then feed that to my processor and listen via 9.2.7, great stuff. I will check this out.
Did you buy the licenses for PC? $795?
Good to have another avid MCH listener planing on giving this a try. I'll be interested in the feedback and will make sure it gets to my contacts.

I alpha tested the Mac version. I then purchased the PC version. For me that's a stain on the budget, but it provides me with such an improved music listening experience it was worth every penny.

Eventually Angry plans a hardware version. That will go in my car. I can hardly wait. I have given the manufacurer my opinion that automobile use may very well be a big niche for the hardware version. So I have suggested he consider high level inputs in addition to line level. Not sure if he's taking my advice.

Rolf
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hopefully when word gets around we will see it in receivers. In fact that's my goal as a fan of the tech! Its the main reason I have been sharing about it.

I have implemented it in two ways, both involve a PC. I beta tested the Telos streaming version, but that makes it a bit more complex than using the Angry Audio Ncircl software.

I don't particularly want a computer as part of my AV system. I had to give up that dislike to get this working. It was a worthwhile compromise. If you already have a PC as a source, then you are ahead of the game (it must have an HDMI output to keep things simple)

I have run the nCircle software on both an older MacBook Pro as well as a Widows Mini PC. In both cases the software was using close to 100 of the CPU power. If I did much other than leave it in the background audible breakups occured. Since this was intended to be a dedicated PC for the task at hand that hasn't been an issue.

So the biggest requirement for the PC is HDMI output (for the MacBook this was a lightning to HDMI dongle). HDMI is by far the best way to get the 5.1 out of the PC and into the AVR. DolbyLive sound cards have pretty much disappeared, but that was always a bit of a hack anyway.

For audio files the signal path is as follows:

Player (in this case VLC) capable of playing the source file plays the source. VLC can also play internet streams and I use it to listen to Internet audio quite often. This is configured to output to a USB sound card. The sound card has optcial TosLink/SPDIF Input/Output. I have the optical output connected back to the optical input. I have it running at 48kHz.

The nCircl software is configured to accept audio input from the sound card. It is then configured to output to the Monitor/HDMI audio output that is connected to the AVR. This requires some configuration, you have to map each output from the software to an associated HDMI channel. That is a one-time configuration.

Best not to reboot or Windows may re-assign the audio I/O. Everything is stable enough I can go for months without rebooting though.

NOTES:
*Computers I have used successfully:

MacBook Pro 2010; 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo; 8 GB DDR3 RAM; MacOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra)

Hyundai Mini PC; Intel Celeron N4020 CPU 1.10GHz 64 BIT; 4.0 GB RAM; WINDOWS 10 PRO 21H2.
This cost me $178.58 including the optional 240 GB SSD drive.

*There are virtual sound card "cables" that could replace my looped back sound card. I had mixed results with the one I tried on the Win PC, but your results may vary. One advantage to my current setup is that it can accept analog input (my turntable) just by unplugging the optical cable. Just a bit kludgy, but I rarely listen to records, normally I would be ripping them.

*USB Sound card is an ART usbPhono+. Once I took care of a typical ground loop issue this is the quietest phone preamp I have ever heard!

*One beauty of using this as a real-time upmixer is that I need not take all my audio files and process them. I leave them as stereo and simply play them.

*One downside to this approach is that PC's make a clunky AV device. Some nice ways around this is to get a suitable bluetooth keyboard. I like the Rii mini i8 I got from microcenter.

*The other downside to this approach is that audio from outside the PC is not easily run through the system in digital form. For example I have a Zidoo I use for streaming Netflix and Youtube. I could run these off sources the new PC, but even with the bluetooth keyboard it's kind of clunky. Same goes for the CD player. However I have a CD drive connected to the PC. I could probably feed these optically into the sound card, but I would need a switcher of some kind. However, I rarely listen to music on Youtube or Netflix. For these video sources I am content to stereo, or one of the upmixers in my AVR,
Thanks. Yeah not crazy about a pc as a necessary part or the kludgy setup you describe; while am getting closer to that these days, not quite there. Would be interesting for avrs to have the capability, but imagine that's quite a ways off? Good luck in any case!
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
Thanks. Yeah not crazy about a pc as a necessary part or the kludgy setup you describe; while am getting closer to that these days, not quite there. Would be interesting for avrs to have the capability, but imagine that's quite a ways off? Good luck in any case!
I suppose the alternative is to use it to upmix stereo source files to surround files compatible with your system. Still requires a computer, but keeps it a distance from the AV equipment. Far less kludgy, but requires an investment in time up front. Perhaps someone will offer this as a service.

Also, given the interest from various Producer's Frank has shown it to, perhaps there will be a renaissance of new multichannel releases. But cost will still be an issue in that case.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I suppose the alternative is to use it to upmix stereo source files to surround files compatible with your system. Still requires a cojputer, but keeps it a distance from the AV equipment. Far less kludgy, but requires an investment in time up front. Perhaps someone will offer this as a service.

Also, given the interest from various Producer's Frank has shown it to, perhaps there will be a renaissance of new multichannel releases. But cost will still be an issue in that case.
LOL oh I could do it I suppose, but like the ART Phono Plus I also own, I just wouldn't find it worth the extra time/effort to implement.....I quickly abandoned my plans to digitize vinyl as I just found that not a good use of time/efforts.....better to just play it when that urge strikes me.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
LOL oh I could do it I suppose, but like the ART Phono Plus I also own, I just wouldn't find it worth the extra time/effort to implement.....I quickly abandoned my plans to digitize vinyl as I just found that not a good use of time/efforts.....better to just play it when that urge strikes me.
Amen. The vinyl digiitiztion project has been a very slow coming and plodding process!
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
Good to have another avid MCH listener planing on giving this a try. I'll be interested in the feedback and will make sure it gets to my contacts.

I alpha tested the Mac version. I then purchased the PC version. For me that's a stain on the budget, but it provides me with such an improved music listening experience it was worth every penny.

Eventually Angry plans a hardware version. That will go in my car. I can hardly wait. I have given the manufacurer my opinion that automobile use may very well be a big niche for the hardware version. So I have suggested he consider high level inputs in addition to line level. Not sure if he's taking my advice.

Rolf
The Xbox series S and X are great at taking content and converting it to the codec of your choice ranging from 2 channel uncompressed, 5 channel, 7 channel, DTS, Atmos and DTS-X. I use DTS for music and atmos for movies.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
The Xbox series S and X are great at taking content and converting it to the codec of your choice ranging from 2 channel uncompressed, 5 channel, 7 channel, DTS, Atmos and DTS-X. I use DTS for music and atmos for movies.
The DTS upmixer in my Onkyo AVR (I think it is called NEO8) is unimpressive for music, at least to my ears (like anything in audio YMMV ;) )

But they key for any up-mixer is consistency source to source. All of them are good for at least some source material. Please share your comparison experience for 2.0 to 5.1 for DejaVu whebn you get the chance.. :)
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
The DTS upmixer in my Onkyo AVR (I think it is called NEO8) is unimpressive for music, at least to my ears (like anything in audio YMMV ;) )

But they key for any up-mixer is consistency source to source. All of them are good for at least some source material. Please share your comparison experience for 2.0 to 5.1 for DejaVu whebn you get the chance.. :)
I have that same upmixer in my Sony BRP, it is called DTS:Neo6. That doesn't send a DTS stream to your processor, it sends a multi channel mix. I prefer the DTS signal in my setup.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
I have that same upmixer in my Sony BRP, it is called DTS:Neo6. That doesn't send a DTS stream to your processor, it sends a multi channel mix. I prefer the DTS signal in my setup.
But the transport mechanism should not effect the upmix and channel characteristics. In fact, if it is linear PCM is shouldn't make any difference at all.

I the case of my rather low end AVE DTS or DD is one of the better ways to get surround into my rather limited reciever, since compressed formats will fit over SPDIF. In fact, at this time, my only way of listening to SACD's involves real time encoding into DD (highest bit rate supported) and feeding over SPDIF and then decoding on the receiver. In the case of my upmixer PC, the uncompressed HDMI is better, at least in theory.

But, not to be at all dismissive, the real question on this thread is how does the NEO6 upmix (or any other upmix) compare to the DejaVu upmix across music sources.

From what I am hearing on another thread on AVSForum, the one to beat is DSU which I haven't heard. Apparently that is Dolby's latest and is actually tech from Trinnov.

I was very relectant to got the PC route, but glad I did. It is a book size CPU stuck to the side of the receiver. But still a clunky user interface compared to an AVR or other specialized box.

Happy Labor Day to all :)

Rolf
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
But the transport mechanism should not effect the upmix and channel characteristics. In fact, if it is linear PCM is shouldn't make any difference at all.

I the case of my rather low end AVE DTS or DD is one of the better ways to get surround into my rather limited reciever, since compressed formats will fit over SPDIF. In fact, at this time, my only way of listening to SACD's involves real time encoding into DD (highest bit rate supported) and feeding over SPDIF and then decoding on the receiver. In the case of my upmixer PC, the uncompressed HDMI is better, at least in theory.

But, not to be at all dismissive, the real question on this thread is how does the NEO6 upmix (or any other upmix) compare to the DejaVu upmix across music sources.

From what I am hearing on another thread on AVSForum, the one to beat is DSU which I haven't heard. Apparently that is Dolby's latest and is actually tech from Trinnov.

I was very relectant to got the PC route, but glad I did. It is a book size CPU stuck to the side of the receiver. But still a clunky user interface compared to an AVR or other specialized box.

Happy Labor Day to all :)

Rolf
When the processor gets the signal from NEO:6 it reads as MCH (multichannel). When it gets the signal from the X-Box that is set to DTS it reads DTS. In my setup the two sound very different with DTS signal sounding much more distinct, better separation, and more clear.
 
R

rolf.taylor

Audioholic Intern
When the processor gets the signal from NEO:6 it reads as MCH (multichannel). When it gets the signal from the X-Box that is set to DTS it reads DTS. In my setup the two sound very different with DTS signal sounding much more distinct, better separation, and more clear.
Still trying to understand this better. So the Xbox takes the stereo source and then upmixes to a selectable target mode. How is it connected to the AVR, HDMI? And are we talking classic DTS (compressed) or one of their newer linear modes?

More questions, can you choose any of several upmix algorithms and then separately choose an output mode? Or are the two tied together. Especially since NEO6 is an upmixer I would expect discrete outputs.

I am curious so I can better understand your experience.

Cheers
 
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