Audiophile Cable Synergy: Real or Snake Oil?

[lovinthehd]

You say you want "proof", you can't handle the "proof". I posted a an objective video with testing, I posted a subjective video of a blind listening test. I posted white papers that show how cables can act as antennas or filters. At the end of the day if you still like lamp cord, go for it.

You posted crap so far for an almost non-existent problem.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just kinda wish bitchydoctor and ohmiswrong would go back to their audiophool groups for posting....maybe Audiophiles North America on facebook....they're particularly good with this kind of crap.

 

[witchdoctor]

I'll say this, at least it got your attention. That doesn't go for everyone. 99% of the people on this site are fine.
It's the .5% that love to argue with the ol, you, no you, no you, no you. The other .5% seem to have a substance abuse issue. LOL
None of that bunch will ever get anything useful from a guy like me.

It's easy to catch my attention with wit and wonder. Down right stupid will too.

The whole issue of you saying others ability to HEAR a difference in cables or gear or speakers or what ever are "BS" and they are "phools".
You missed the whole point. You are the one saying others are somehow deficient in some way, when you openly admit YOU purchasing equipment by spec.
Then back it up by proclaiming if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

I explained my position several times you offer "I can't hear it" and someone said "you can't measure it".

SOUND

MUSIC

They are two different things. Two different systems.

Here is the alternate answer.

OK YOU WIN! You're a very helpful person, thanks for the wonderful conversation and life changing advise.

I'll go rip the 10-12 systems out set them on the corner, run down and buy what ever you recommend. Go ahead, I'm hanging on your every word.
I'll pile the cables right beside them, generator, solar and battery BU too. The Rodney Dangerfield LP will be bubble wrapped "No Respect"

Are you a Death row Chaplin? I suspect in this or at least another life you might have been. Maybe you were just a nun with a ruler, same thing.

Party Pooper

This is the thing that makes the potty mouth crowd heads explode, disagreement. It is like no one else can be right except them, and if you dare post what they don't agree with, their potty mouths open, and diarrhea of the mouth begins.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is the thing that makes the potty mouth crowd heads explode, disagreement. It is like no one else can be right except them, and if you dare post what they don't agree with, their potty mouths open, and diarrhea of the mouth begins.

Or just idiots like you and ohmisfuc*ed up....

 

[lovinthehd]

This is the thing that makes the potty mouth crowd heads explode, disagreement. It is like no one else can be right except them, and if you dare post what they don't agree with, their potty mouths open, and diarrhea of the mouth begins.

So you prefer polite bullshit?

 

[NINaudio]

So you prefer polite bullshit?

Hey hey! Watch it Mr. pottymouth!

 

[lovinthehd]

Hey hey! Watch it Mr. pottymouth!

Not as potty mouth as those promoting silly cable audibility bullshit...

 

[lovinthehd]

I'll say this, at least it got your attention. That doesn't go for everyone. 99% of the people on this site are fine.
It's the .5% that love to argue with the ol, you, no you, no you, no you. The other .5% seem to have a substance abuse issue. LOL
None of that bunch will ever get anything useful from a guy like me.

It's easy to catch my attention with wit and wonder. Down right stupid will too.

The whole issue of you saying others ability to HEAR a difference in cables or gear or speakers or what ever are "BS" and they are "phools".
You missed the whole point. You are the one saying others are somehow deficient in some way, when you openly admit YOU purchasing equipment by spec.
Then back it up by proclaiming if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

I explained my position several times you offer "I can't hear it" and someone said "you can't measure it".

SOUND

MUSIC

They are two different things. Two different systems.

Here is the alternate answer.

OK YOU WIN! You're a very helpful person, thanks for the wonderful conversation and life changing advise.

I'll go rip the 10-12 systems out set them on the corner, run down and buy what ever you recommend. Go ahead, I'm hanging on your every word.
I'll pile the cables right beside them, generator, solar and battery BU too. The Rodney Dangerfield LP will be bubble wrapped "No Respect"

Are you a Death row Chaplin? I suspect in this or at least another life you might have been. Maybe you were just a nun with a ruler, same thing.

Party Pooper

You're in the less than 1% category, so just another bullshit post. I'm starting to doubt you're even a qualified mechanic.

 

[highfigh]

No wonder you had to leave sales, no one would buy anything from you, especially not this rant.
Please don't disparage the audio industry as a whole because your career in it didn't work out. Nearly all of the vendors online today have money back return policies. Yes, there are a FEW bad apples but my experience with vendors (both online and in a store) has been very good. You do acknowledge that cables and wires have interference, that's good.

Why are you so sensitive about disparaging the audio industry? BTW- I worked at a music store before the first stereo store (I started there in FEb, 1978) and I never left the business, but I stopped working for other people in '97. All of my business is repeat and referrals, so I guess my happy customers don't agree with your assessment and erroneous thinking that I had to leave sales.

Wow! A whole 180 messages and you're here to show us where we're wrong. What a good little trooper.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

ONLINE vendors may have money back policies, but that's almost impossible for B&M stores to compete with and if you think Amazon is one seller, guess again. They can do what they want because they have so much money behind them and it's great for them, terrible for the B&M because they have to live with different conditions WRT "What do we do with the returned goods?". Returned goods can't be resold as new, period. All states have restrictions on this.

BTW- I never wrote that wires and cables don't 'have' interference. Actually, they don't 'have' interference- that's similar to saying that an amplifier 'has' power output. They receive interference and in some places, like where I live, it's hard to prevent because I live about a mile from an 'antenna farm, which is a place where several TV transmission towers are located. That doesn't mean I have a problem with interference, though. I never hear any of it, whether through my TV, stereo system or guitar amps/effects.

Monster Cables had a thing called 'Dr Noise', which was a box that was supposed to be used for selling their surge protectors and I borrowed one from the store where I had worked. I plugged the Munster Power strip into the outlet, then the Dr Noise- when I switched it on, I was able to hear a baseball game being broadcast by a local station but when I used my power strip, it was dead silent. I know noise is carried by all kinds of cables, but again, that deosn't mean it's a problem.

 

[highfigh]

I can't think of many people in those trades who understand low voltage signals, or even gave a rat's butt about them. They all work with cables that need to do heavy work (high current and voltage), not minute signal levels that need to be amplified in order to do what's needed. I have known and worked with/around many electricians- resi, commercial/industrial, etc- almost none had any ideas about why they shouldn't run their Romex through the same stud holes as my AV/network cabling and one said "I wish this was 25 years ago". When I asked why, he said "Because I wouldn't have to deal with this low voltage crap" in response to my complaints about where he had run his Romex and about using MY holes & pull cord for his wiring when I wasn't there, just because he was lazy and opportunistic.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ok lets catch you up. Low voltage electricians joined the union rank and file over 10 years ago in Northern CA. They, like all trades have better
and more educated members. Some it's a job, some it's a life long passion. The people I mentioned are all professional Union members.
They were all apprenticed, by Union members and required to complete all their training. That is for the basics. ALL of the people I mentioned
were close to or top in their fields. My big brother (a fine man) was the BA for the local in Martinez CA for many years. His sons and grandsons
are now OTJ. My nephew is based out of Sac. He brings online huge switching station for a few of our favorite providers. AT&T, Google, and GE providers.
He not only oversees the installation and integration of low and high voltage it has to be QUIET.

My SIL is an electrician also, he is mainly solar, the whole 9 yards, from mobile solar/gen sets, commercial and residential installs. A few of his
customers are full blown 200K audio buffs.

They are trained electricians, COPS, pipefitters, welders, mechanic/welders. There is a retired finish carpenter in the bunch too. The point is all the
music lovers (and there is a few) are not just good at what they do, we all worked together through the years building our homes and learning and
sharing our trades. ALL of them know how to set up a great sounding room

The point you worked with a BARNY and you measure your experience to that standard. I gave up on Barnies within the first 3 month, after my first
five years of training mechanics. no passion, No TRAINING! GOOD BY

So your experience with your local electrician may have been a little less than what you can expect today from a UNION trained electrician.

The right guy for the job helps. Besides you hired the guy, tell him, ya lazy f___, do it right or hit the road. Limp noodle kids today. LOL

I'm not in Northern California and most LV aren't union in Wisconsin and many of my experiences with union workers have been anything BUT good. However, that's a problem with those specific people, not all of them. I have worked with electricians who were great and others like the ones in the other post who weren't. They work in a part of Wisconsin that's not much different from a backwoods town where the people never hear anything about the outside world- they work when they want, do what they want and think how they want, regardless of what someone requests from them. If I had known how weird that place is, I would have told the homeowner that I wasn't interested in working there. Down here, I have been lucky to work with a group of contractors who are very conscientious, we help each other and like to work with people we know, rather than new people constantly, whose work habits are unknown and as we sometimes find out, not up to par.

Another example of a bad electrician is the guy who wired the detached garage at my house- I had asked for a separate 1" conduit for LV cabling and he installed 1/2", but used adapters at each end, so it looked like 1". I didn't find out until after they had left and gone back to Illinois. He also installed the 60A breaker in the garage's sub-panel and the 50A breaker in the main panel in the house, without using the retainer, didn't bother to feed a bonding conductor between the house & garage and didn't install the ground rods correctly. Being based in Illinois, he had no interest in coming back to correct his mistakes.

Never said union trained aren't good workers and I know many- if you want to see people who don't understand electricity, look at boat mechanics. I went for training one time and some of those guys had no freaking idea what to do with a Bosch relay, even though the diagram for the tabs is on the outside of the shell. But that was more than 20 years ago and NMEA offers training that everyone in that industry needs, regardless of whether they'll get it.

 

[witchdoctor]

Why are you so sensitive about disparaging the audio industry? BTW- I worked at a music store before the first stereo store (I started there in FEb, 1978) and I never left the business, but I stopped working for other people in '97. All of my business is repeat and referrals, so I guess my happy customers don't agree with your assessment and erroneous thinking that I had to leave sales.

Wow! A whole 180 messages and you're here to show us where we're wrong. What a good little trooper.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

ONLINE vendors may have money back policies, but that's almost impossible for B&M stores to compete with and if you think Amazon is one seller, guess again. They can do what they want because they have so much money behind them and it's great for them, terrible for the B&M because they have to live with different conditions WRT "What do we do with the returned goods?". Returned goods can't be resold as new, period. All states have restrictions on this.

BTW- I never wrote that wires and cables don't 'have' interference. Actually, they don't 'have' interference- that's similar to saying that an amplifier 'has' power output. They receive interference and in some places, like where I live, it's hard to prevent because I live about a mile from an 'antenna farm, which is a place where several TV transmission towers are located. That doesn't mean I have a problem with interference, though. I never hear any of it, whether through my TV, stereo system or guitar amps/effects.

Monster Cables had a thing called 'Dr Noise', which was a box that was supposed to be used for selling their surge protectors and I borrowed one from the store where I had worked. I plugged the Munster Power strip into the outlet, then the Dr Noise- when I switched it on, I was able to hear a baseball game being broadcast by a local station but when I used my power strip, it was dead silent. I know noise is carried by all kinds of cables, but again, that deosn't mean it's a problem.

OK, if you are a good salesman more power to you, congrats. What is your opinion of either an online stores money back return policy or a B&M stores policy of an in store audition and comparison of equipment? Are these policies good, bad, or indifferent?

 

[highfigh]

OK, if you are a good salesman more power to you, congrats. What is your opinion of either an online stores money back return policy or a B&M stores policy of an in store audition and comparison of equipment? Are these policies good, bad, or indifferent?

I don't know how old you are, but you don't seem to know that all stereo stores allowed people to listen to the equipment they might be considering. That costs money, but people are so GD offended by a store making a profit that they first started buying form catalog dealers, then online- customer service from catalog sales was almost non-existent and in the beginning of online sales, it wasn't much better. The practice of 'Bait & Switch' still occurs, but not in the same way- people who weren't authorized to sell many brands would advertise prices that were near or at dealer cost, hold the customer's money for weeks/months and when the customer demanded a refund after repeatedly being told that the item was back-ordered, they were offered something that was said to be 'just as good' or 'It's better- you'll like it more". This is a major part of the reason UAP and MAP pricing came about.

You're asking me about two completely different things. If you haven't experienced a good demo by someone who didn't just want your money, you missed out. What we did at the store where I worked was explain why something might be better or worse and let them listen, so they could come to their own conclusions. No shaming with "Oh, you can't hear it?", no "I guess your system isn't as resolving as it could be" (the word 'resolving' was never used at that time) and there wasn't as much BS to deal with. I had one guy tell me that I should put Cramolin on the tangs of my power cords because it made the sound cleaner and tightened the bass- both claims are impossible.

I use the return policy because sometimes, a product isn't what was described, sometimes it fails. I don't usually test products and use that policy and technically, I can't legally resell items bought from online sellers because the dealer agreements forbid it and if the item(s) have a problem, there's no warranty if bought from a third party, so I tell the customer to buy it because they have recourse if warranty is needed.

 

[OHMisback]

Or just idiots like you and ohmisfuc*ed up....

Drinkin' again? Why don't you lay off the juice. You are one obnoxious prick. I've watched and been somewhat civil with your constant
badgering and lack of any manners. I'll offer you a solution. Mind your own business, quit swearing at me or making fun of other folks name. I suggest you
pay attention.

I don't want your input, you have nothing to offer me. If you are happy with your current system and happy with your current level of knowledge, good for you.
But be aware, the days of "how it measures and how it sounds" work together. There is no reason for a compromise of either.

You're in the less than 1% category, so just another bullshit post. I'm starting to doubt you're even a qualified mechanic.

I'm not sure what a qualified mechanic is, but I'm sure your obnoxious drunk self will tell ME.

I have FARTED better men than you bucko and pissed better manners. It takes a mechanic to know one. YOU are not, YOUR excused, you may leave now

If I'm such a problem for you I suggest YOU, not ME Ignore my content, just like I IGNORE most of yours. I'm not going anywhere at this point. I'm going to stay
because of you though. You have managed to accomplish that. I plan on supporting the GROWING knowledge on this SITE.
I like seeing things like "Can HT sound as good as 2ch stereo"?. There is a growth that Gene has long since recognized. MAYBE you should keep up and pay a
little closer attention. That is what brought me to this site. Gene, NOT YOU.

Potty mouth, Party Poopin'...............................................PERSON!

AA/NA Tuesday nights are the best meetings where I live. It's been 40+ years of good living for me.

 

[witchdoctor]

I don't know how old you are, but you don't seem to know that all stereo stores allowed people to listen to the equipment they might be considering. That costs money, but people are so GD offended by a store making a profit that they first started buying form catalog dealers, then online- customer service from catalog sales was almost non-existent and in the beginning of online sales, it wasn't much better. The practice of 'Bait & Switch' still occurs, but not in the same way- people who weren't authorized to sell many brands would advertise prices that were near or at dealer cost, hold the customer's money for weeks/months and when the customer demanded a refund after repeatedly being told that the item was back-ordered, they were offered something that was said to be 'just as good' or 'It's better- you'll like it more". This is a major part of the reason UAP and MAP pricing came about.

You're asking me about two completely different things. If you haven't experienced a good demo by someone who didn't just want your money, you missed out. What we did at the store where I worked was explain why something might be better or worse and let them listen, so they could come to their own conclusions. No shaming with "Oh, you can't hear it?", no "I guess your system isn't as resolving as it could be" (the word 'resolving' was never used at that time) and there wasn't as much BS to deal with. I had one guy tell me that I should put Cramolin on the tangs of my power cords because it made the sound cleaner and tightened the bass- both claims are impossible.

I use the return policy because sometimes, a product isn't what was described, sometimes it fails. I don't usually test products and use that policy and technically, I can't legally resell items bought from online sellers because the dealer agreements forbid it and if the item(s) have a problem, there's no warranty if bought from a third party, so I tell the customer to buy it because they have recourse if warranty is needed.

OK, you use the return policy if a product isn't as described, good. Is your current audio system perfect? If it is perfect for you, great. Some members are still seeking for "another level" and if you can return a product what is the big deal of testing new technology? I get you don't want to get stuck with the check for a bad meal, but as long as you can send it back are you OK with that?

 

[highfigh]

OK, you use the return policy if a product isn't as described, good. Is your current audio system perfect? If it is perfect for you, great. Some members are still seeking for "another level" and if you can return a product what is the big deal of testing new technology? I get you don't want to get stuck with the check for a bad meal, but as long as you can send it back are you OK with that?

I gave up looking for 'perfect' a long time ago- it's A) not possible and B) not affordable.

As I wrote, I have been in consumer audio since 1978- my desire to spend a lot of time dealing with testing equipment is about gone unless it's something really special. I'm no longer like a kid who's waiting for Santa to bring a new toy.

Yeah, it sounds jaded but after almost 50 years, I have other interests but music is still at the top- I just don't obsess about the sound and am not neurotic about my system.

I really like the sound of my system- that's why I don't constantly look for new things to replace others. Since I ALWAYS carry hearing protection, my ears are still better than most of my age and I have been tested- the audiologist was actually surprised when he saw my sensitivity at the higher frequencies. Aside from the crossovers and some acoustical panels that I placed while using Room EQ Wizard, I use no tone controls or other equalization for my system. I installed the panels to remove the phase cancellations, not alter the mid or high end.

 

[witchdoctor]

I gave up looking for 'perfect' a long time ago- it's A) not possible and B) not affordable.

As I wrote, I have been in consumer audio since 1978- my desire to spend a lot of time dealing with testing equipment is about gone unless it's something really special. I'm no longer like a kid who's waiting for Santa to bring a new toy.

Yeah, it sounds jaded but after almost 50 years, I have other interests but music is still at the top- I just don't obsess about the sound and am not neurotic about my system.

I really like the sound of my system- that's why I don't constantly look for new things to replace others. Since I ALWAYS carry hearing protection, my ears are still better than most of my age and I have been tested- the audiologist was actually surprised when he saw my sensitivity at the higher frequencies. Aside from the crossovers and some acoustical panels that I placed while using Room EQ Wizard, I use no tone controls or other equalization for my system. I installed the panels to remove the phase cancellations, not alter the mid or high end.

This is why using dealers with return policies and auditions is a good idea. Your system is good... for you. Your opinions are based on decades of experience right? People need advice that is from 2022, not 1982. If you haven't "tested" new cables, power conditioners, etc. from the last 3-4 years your advice is good... for you.
For people that aren't completely satisfied they should test and compare the most recent technology to see what is good...for them.

 

[highfigh]

This is why using dealers with return policies and auditions is a good idea. Your system is good... for you. Your opinions are based on decades of experience right? People need advice that is from 2022, not 1982. If you haven't "tested" new cables, power conditioners, etc. from the last 3-4 years your advice is good... for you.
For people that aren't completely satisfied they should test and compare the most recent technology to see what is good...for them.

I have posted my thinking on listening tests and after having had hundreds of sales reps coming into the store with products "that will revolutionize the industry " and win the war for the allies (we rolled our eyes, a lot), it becomes necessary to stop caring if something sounds better, worse or the same as the rest- we had no investment in these products,so it really didn't matter if we liked them, or not. This is about as close as we could come to being objective because we weren't going to test them and at that time, speaker testing was actually pretty crude, for many manufacturers. They might have had access to an anechoic chamber, but then, the question of "Anechioc, to what low frequency?" enters the conversation and that's important.

If I'm considering a product to sell (let's use speakers for this), I need to be analytical- does it check the boxes for what I want (not lacking in any part of the response, not too much of anything, does it annoy me just from listening for a short time, is the price ridiculous, do I think people will like the cosmetics (WAF factor), etc. If possible, I like to compare them to speakers that I like and if they hold up, I'll consider them. However, this ignores a brand's popularity and I don't like many of of the big sellers, so they won't be on my list of what I recommend. Sure, I make recommendations and so far, I haven't had anyone tell me that they didn't like the sound. I also know when it's time to shut up and let someone buy what they want when they have already made a choice.

I compared my speakers to some Dynaudio speakers, in the same room- since mine contain Peerless and Vifa drivers, they have a similar sound but really, I'm not going to churn through a lot of equipment in a constant search for something better.

You really need to think about what a 'power conditioner' does and what it can do for the sound from the technical side, not the "I want a unicorn" side. The use of 'power conditioner' is wrong. These, aside from the real ones that are extremely expensive, suppress surges, shut off above/below a specific voltage, limit current to amplifiers (the reason many have at least one outlet specifically for an amplifier or subwoofer) and not much more. The power coming from them isn't as squeaky clean as many think, nor is the power entering the equipment's power supply so bad in most places that it causes the problems described in sales literature.

Advice from 1982 is just as valid as advice from 2022, but we didn't have as many made-up adjectives and as much sales BS to deal with. The data and testing methods have improved, though and these must be used, people need to understand them and use them for making some decisions WRT buying equipment but going off half-cocked and telling others that the difference between power cords is like night & day (like lifting a veil, etc) is a bunch of crap unless the worse one is faulty.

I won't say there's no difference between interconnects because I have heard some that were absolute crap and while they were inexpensive, they had worked well enough until I listened to a DVD player and thought it was terrible, then I changed the cables and heard the difference. I returned all of the bad ones to my distributor and explained that I would never sell anything that was so bad. However, a $1500 HDMI cable with batteries that's sold on the idea that it provides better sound is BS.

 

[highfigh]

This is why using dealers with return policies and auditions is a good idea. Your system is good... for you. Your opinions are based on decades of experience right? People need advice that is from 2022, not 1982. If you haven't "tested" new cables, power conditioners, etc. from the last 3-4 years your advice is good... for you.
For people that aren't completely satisfied they should test and compare the most recent technology to see what is good...for them.

Too much of a wuss to post why you disagree?

If you haven't worked in consumer audio and especially as it was in the past, you'll never understand what it was and what it could have been.

It used to be enjoyable- now, it's a PITA.

 

[OHMisback]

telling others that the difference between power cords is like night & day (like lifting a veil, etc) is a bunch of crap unless the worse one is faulty.

I won't say there's no difference between interconnects because I have heard some that were absolute crap and while they were inexpensive, they had worked well enough until I listened to a DVD player and thought it was terrible, then I changed the cables and heard the difference. I returned all of the bad ones to my distributor and explained that I would never sell anything that was so bad. However, a $1500 HDMI cable with batteries that's sold on the idea that it provides better sound is BS

I agree with what you're saying. As a matter of fact I agree 100% about raising the veil with a PC. If a PC affects anything that much, it should be cold welded in place.

I had a couple of conversations with Jim B. "Pimp Daddy" (RIP) of SST. His PC were welded in place as per the SST information on his power amps.

I was reading Jay's audio reviews complaining how he had to change 30K PC to make certain conditioner work properly. I was thinking of my modded 280.00 dollar Tripp Lite, 2400 (4). I added 1 tube of clear silicone each for dampening. It quieted 90% of the sheet metal/transformer noise. They do what they are suppose to do, protect my expensive gear FIRST.

What was spent on "A" power cable, I built a 16 x 22 x 8 room and all the gear, speakers and gutters for the outside of the room. Conditioners may make 30K PC to work correctly, but it really takes a full blown sucker to think you add a 30k PC to a 20k cleaner to make your 150K amp sound better. A 150K amp should run on perpetual motion, some how. The power left over it should power the rest of the house, maybe the neighborhood. 30K PC and 50K DACs exist because someone else pays that for them, not me. 100.00 on a 1 meter DIY PC makes a lot better sense to me. That seems a tad high come to think of it. 5 meter then.

Return policies on a 30K PC. Fine print. 99% restocking fee and the 1% left is toward another purchase. .

If anyone can afford that stuff, good for them. I'm not the itty bitty part of the itty bitty part of 1/10% that would, even if I could.

I believe in "Death then Judgement", I don't need 30K PC on the list too. I still don't know how I'm going to explain the week in Jamaica that turned into
One week and 89 days in Panama. I remember the 89 days all right. It's the week before that's a little "PURPLE HAZY". I do remember a lot of Technicolor though.

 

[witchdoctor]

Too much of a wuss to post why you disagree?

If you haven't worked in consumer audio and especially as it was in the past, you'll never understand what it was and what it could have been.

It used to be enjoyable- now, it's a PITA.

I don't think we agree with each other which is fine, we can agree to disagree and move on to another topic.