Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Trell]

"Guns are not a problem, people are".

 

[highfigh]

And a kindergarten teacher carrying a gun while taking care of 5-years old. Is this the environment you want your children to grow up in?

Trained, Armed and Ready. To Teach Kindergarten. (Published 2022)

More school employees are carrying guns to defend against school shootings. In Ohio, a contentious new law requires no more than 24 hours of training.

www.nytimes.com

View attachment 57093

No, I don't. What I want is for people to do something when a family member or friend shows signs of mental illness, extreme anger or impulsiveness. I want people to stop thinking that it's OK to kill anyone who isn't trying to kill them. I want people to leave each other alone if there's no reason to eff with them and to respect the rights of others.

Teachers and schools should be able to let teachers do what they were hired for- to teach. Not to protect against someone asshole who wants to kill easy targets.

But the governments (local, county, state and Federal) are making it easy for people to slip through the cracks, people working in these agencies are failing badly when they should be doing their jobs.

There's so much blame to assign and it seems that nobody wants to be the first to stand up and try to help, other than politicians saying what people want to hear. PARENTS and families need to be the first to make the impressions on kids that this is wrong, then it needs to be reinforced by schools, but they're too busy picking preferred pronouns, making boys into girls, girls into boys and other kids into hamsters or whatever the eff they were told they want to be. Look into the practice of teachers grooming kids.

The Uvalde school was known to have faulty locks and that was one reason the shooter was able to enter, but nothing was done about them. The school screwed up, at least one teacher and the administrators screwed up and the PD absolutely caused the carnage to go on for so long. Trained police officers failed to go it and a 22 year old in Indiana stopped a shooter within 15 seconds of the beginning of the incident- so many failures that should never have happened. The officers in Uvalde had received training for this kind of incident in the first few months of 2022, but that didn't stick.

None of this needs to happen.

 

[highfigh]

"Guns are not a problem, people are".

View attachment 57095

How did the gun end up in the hands of a child? It surely didn't do it by itself.

Stop being ridiculous and try to help- this doesn't help.

 

[Trell]

What can go wrong here?

 

[Trell]

"Guns are not the problem, people are!"

 

[Dude#1279435]

Is this what the pro-gun people wants?

View attachment 57092

Like the Middle East, no.

 

[Trell]

"Guns are not the problem, people are!"

 

[Trell]

Like the Middle East, no.

As long as the 2nd Amendment is protected, I'm not sure they actually care who dies because of it.

 

[Trell]

In this thread there has been linked to much research showing that the mere amount of weapons as well as availability is causing much death, far far higher than seen in other Western democracies. The pro-gun faction that is so dominant still say the problem is people and not guns, and frankly, I don't understand how they can stand looking at themselves in the mirror.

Here is another study published in 2020, for US. Sadly, they did not do an international comparative study.

Adolescent Suicide, Household Firearm Ownership, and the Effects of Child Access Prevention Laws:

>>>
Objective
This study has 3 objectives: to examine the association between state-level firearm ownership and suicide among adolescents of high school age; to compare the strength of the firearm ownership−suicide association among adolescents relative to adults; and to evaluate the relationship between 11 child access prevention (CAP) laws and suicide.

Method
Using an ecological time series cross-sectional design, we modeled suicide rates from January 1, 1991, to December 31, 2017, as a function of household firearm ownership and states’ implementation of CAP provisions using fixed effect negative binomial models.

Results
There were 37,652 suicides among adolescents between the ages of 14 and 18 years during the study period, and more than half of all suicides (51.5%, n = 19,402) involved firearms. Each 10 percentage-point increase in states’ firearm ownership was associated with a 39.3% (35.1%−43.5%) increase in firearm suicide, which in turn contributed a 6.8% (2.5%−11.1%) increase in all-cause suicide. The association between firearm ownership and suicide was approximately 2 times stronger among adolescents relative to adults. Policies mandating locks and safe storage were associated with a 13.1% (2.7%−22.3%) reduction in adolescent firearm suicide and an unexplained 8.7% (1.2%−15.7%) reduction in non-firearm suicide. CAP provisions were associated with reduced firearm suicide across the lifespan, but effects were stronger among adolescents.

Conclusion
There is an increased risk of adolescent suicide associated with household firearm ownership, and safe storage provisions are associated with decreased adolescent firearm suicide.
<<<

 

[lovinthehd]

As I've said before. Guns AND people are the problem. If it were only people, well lets open the market up to full autos, flame throwers, and grenade and missile launchers. Now I'm sure that's ridiculous in a way to say that, but lets think for a minute. Do we really need more semi's out there? I don't believe so, and it doesn't have to be via confiscation, which isn't realistic to begin with. Education, public service messages etc. Things that frankly could end up doing nothing but worth a try. Certainly better than doing nothing. Nobody that I'm aware of looks at the AR15 and thinks that is in any way normal when it comes to gun ownership.

Where's drumphy in that gallery?

 

[highfigh]

Where's drumphy in that gallery?

Far more guns are sold when Democrats are in power because the perception is that they want to take guns away from gun owners and with the newest House Bill & increase in gun buybacks, it's clear that this is true. While they aren't actually confiscating or demanding people turn in their guns, they are taking guns out of people's homes- it's unlikely that most gangs or criminals will turn in many guns in good working order but even if they do, they can always go out and buy more with the money they collect.

If the 400+ million guns were owned mainly by people who wanted to cause trouble, the population of the US would drop significantly.

 

[highfigh]

In this thread there has been linked to much research showing that the mere amount of weapons as well as availability is causing much death, far far higher than seen in other Western democracies. The pro-gun faction that is so dominant still say the problem is people and not guns, and frankly, I don't understand how they can stand looking at themselves in the mirror.

Here is another study published in 2020, for US. Sadly, they did not do an international comparative study.

Adolescent Suicide, Household Firearm Ownership, and the Effects of Child Access Prevention Laws:

>>>
Objective
This study has 3 objectives: to examine the association between state-level firearm ownership and suicide among adolescents of high school age; to compare the strength of the firearm ownership−suicide association among adolescents relative to adults; and to evaluate the relationship between 11 child access prevention (CAP) laws and suicide.

Method
Using an ecological time series cross-sectional design, we modeled suicide rates from January 1, 1991, to December 31, 2017, as a function of household firearm ownership and states’ implementation of CAP provisions using fixed effect negative binomial models.

Results
There were 37,652 suicides among adolescents between the ages of 14 and 18 years during the study period, and more than half of all suicides (51.5%, n = 19,402) involved firearms. Each 10 percentage-point increase in states’ firearm ownership was associated with a 39.3% (35.1%−43.5%) increase in firearm suicide, which in turn contributed a 6.8% (2.5%−11.1%) increase in all-cause suicide. The association between firearm ownership and suicide was approximately 2 times stronger among adolescents relative to adults. Policies mandating locks and safe storage were associated with a 13.1% (2.7%−22.3%) reduction in adolescent firearm suicide and an unexplained 8.7% (1.2%−15.7%) reduction in non-firearm suicide. CAP provisions were associated with reduced firearm suicide across the lifespan, but effects were stronger among adolescents.

Conclusion
There is an increased risk of adolescent suicide associated with household firearm ownership, and safe storage provisions are associated with decreased adolescent firearm suicide.
<<<

This is no joke, to me. I have known far too many people who committed suicide, mostly with a gun, and the daughter of a cousin made an attempt. She now councils people who are considering it and sees her survival as a good thing, even though she was badly disfigured.

The trauma of people surrounding people who commit suicide is something that's not mentioned often, but it needs to be part of the discussion because friends and family members follow the ones who were lost- it may not be immediately, but it has an effect.

Private gun sales don't have any real requirements for making sure the buyer isn't a criminal or someone with mental illness. That needs to change.

 

[McC]

Private gun sales don't have any real requirements for making sure the buyer isn't a criminal or someone with mental illness. That needs to change.

That depends on the State. In Oregon, every firearm sale requires a background check.

A very good friend passed and his wife gifted me a pistol as a keepsake. We took it to an FFL (one who has a Federal Firearms License to sell) where I paid a fee for the background check and I went home with the firearm. The patchwork of laws in the various States is abysmal and the general public has almost no knowledge of firearms or gun laws in their own State. Well, except for what they are told by the extremes on both sides. I support background checks similar to what Oregon does. Unfortunately, few have any trust in the Federal Government to have a central database of every citizen who owns a firearm. That distrust is well earned.

There are many arguments on both sides of the issue. Some of those arguments are well reasoned, on both sides. But, like most things in this country lately, someone with a differing opinion is vilified and condemned. We've changed. We're not the people we once were. Maybe we should include that in the discussion?

 

[highfigh]

That depends on the State. In Oregon, every firearm sale requires a background check.

A very good friend passed and his wife gifted me a pistol as a keepsake. We took it to an FFL (one who has a Federal Firearms License to sell) where I paid a fee for the background check and I went home with the firearm. The patchwork of laws in the various States is abysmal and the general public has almost no knowledge of firearms or gun laws in their own State. Well, except for what they are told by the extremes on both sides. I support background checks similar to what Oregon does. Unfortunately, few have any trust in the Federal Government to have a central database of every citizen who owns a firearm. That distrust is well earned.

There are many arguments on both sides of the issue. Some of those arguments are well reasoned, on both sides. But, like most things in this country lately, someone with a differing opinion is vilified and condemned. We've changed. We're not the people we once were. Maybe we should include that in the discussion?

Sure, YOU went to an FFL, but do you honestly think criminals do that? 'Required' is fine, but don't expect everyone to comply.

The states may have their own idea about how to transfer ownership of guns, but the NICS is national and is used by ALL states. OTOH, it's pretty easy to lie and get a gun as long as the specific lies don't involve an arrest & conviction. Domestic Violence murders are way up and little is being done about it.

If you think the NICS is how the Federal Government is keeping info about who owns what, have you heard anything about ATF agents and other officers knocking on doors to find out what the people have as far as guns, how many, etc? These searches are without a search warrant and if you do an online search, you'll see a lot of links to this.

As far as "We're not the people we once were", many of us have become disgusted by the lack of consequences when people are repeat offenders but aren't penalized. Some have been victimized, many have seen crimes/known crime victims whose attackers walked away from prosecution but rarely does someone go full vigilante. People are being attacked on the streets, even though they did nothing to provoke the attacks (here's a good outcome-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554940672041443328

).

Personally, and I have said/written this many times, I'm disgusted and disappointed by people. It's 2022 and people are still acting as if we have never had a single law written and enacted. It's almost like 'Lord Of The Flies', except many of the offenders are adults. Well, they're over 18, anyway.

 

[Trell]

Yet another shooting in an US school, and this time it was a six (yes, six) year old boy that shot and wounded his teacher who is seriously injured.

This is a consequence of US laws where people can carry hand guns more or less as they like in many places.

 

[TankTop5]

I have a suppressed SBR, that’s 2 federal agency background checks and both signed off by my local Sheriff. Failing to do so is 10 years in club fed for each count.

 

[Trell]

I have a suppressed SBR, that’s 2 federal agency background checks and both signed off by my local Sheriff. Failing to do so is 10 years in club fed for each count.

Why ever do you have a f*cking silencer? As I recall you're a car salesman.

 

[MaxInValrico]

I have a suppressed SBR, that’s 2 federal agency background checks and both signed off by my local Sheriff. Failing to do so is 10 years in club fed for each count.

Why suppressed?

 

[Mikado463]

Why suppressed?

doesn't want to wake the neighbors ?

 

[cpp]

Well in this case with this 6 year old. We have read or heard nothing about the 6 year old's parents. Makes one wonder is this home filled with hate and violence, makes you wonder what kind of abuse is going on in the home. A 6 year old learns by example and that means the parents, or maybe brothers etc... Its been really quiet about the kids family.