Powered Speakers, are they the way? If so, what about Live Sound speakers for Home Theater?

[ndiaz]

Hi All!

New member here!

I've been following Audioholics for a while now & love the content.

I'm in the process of looking for a house to purchase & one of the things I'm looking for is a basement for you guessed it, Home Theater.

I come from Live Sound & Production work, so I've always thought, well...the speakers I use for my work prioritize in their design, spl, coverage & of course, as much as a stable frequency response throughout the spectrum as it can within the given budget.

& for the faults in the response that show up after proper placement, we have dsp.

Saw a video posted a while ago about "Studio Powered Monitors" & how "accurate" for the money they were for our purposes.
Which, it's been a given. Always. That's their whole thing "Accuracy, Monitoring for sonic decision making"

So, why is it that they are not the first choice? I couldn't think that running an extra cable could get in the way of choosing them over Passives. Since you only need to run it once.

Which leads me to the "Live Sound" Powered Speakers. I can't seem to find any information about how would they fare in Home Theater or any examples.

Nevertheless, I'm thinking of going this route given that I'm very familiar with them.

This is the idea:
QSC K12.2 for LCR
QSC CP8 for Surrounds
Emotiva RMC-1L for Processing
For In-Ceilings I figured that some well reviewed 8-inch's with a simple pair of stereo amps will do.
For Subs, well haven't decided what model but seems that the brand that is a no brainer is SVS. Which I already own one of their subs & I'm pleased with it.

So would love to hear what you guys have to say! I'm sure I can't be the only one going with this train of thought...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All comes down to:

1. Cost. For most people, passive speakers cost a lot less for what they want. For example, the SAME speaker with the added amps/DSP could cost TWICE as much or more.

2. Many audiophiles already have their own amps. Why spend more on more amps inside the speakers? It's along the line of buying separate pre-pros and amps, instead of an AVR. If you already have the amps, you can just upgrade the pre-pros.

3. Amps inside speakers/subs are small plate amps. Many audiophiles don't like small plate amps to power their speakers for a variety of reasons. For one, some people feel that separate amps can be more RELIABLE than small plate amps inside the speakers.

4. If the amps/DSP inside the large heavy speakers fail, it's more inconvenient to repair/replace than a separate external amp. What happens in 10 years if the manufacturers no longer have these built-in amps/DSP?

5. Some audiophiles feel that SEPARATE is just better, whether it is for separate pre-pros vs AVR or speakers or subs, etc.

YMMV. For some, powered speakers is the way to go. But for most people, it's not the way to go. Same with anything else.

For example, I've always used passive subwoofers since I started this hobby back when I was in college. I still use ONLY passive subwoofers. Yet, probably 99.9% of all people use powered subwoofers.

Whatever works best for you is the right answer, regardless of what MOST people do.

 

[everettT]

Hi All!

New member here!

I've been following Audioholics for a while now & love the content.

I'm in the process of looking for a house to purchase & one of the things I'm looking for is a basement for you guessed it, Home Theater.

I come from Live Sound & Production work, so I've always thought, well...the speakers I use for my work prioritize in their design, spl, coverage & of course, as much as a stable frequency response throughout the spectrum as it can within the given budget.

& for the faults in the response that show up after proper placement, we have dsp.

Saw a video posted a while ago about "Studio Powered Monitors" & how "accurate" for the money they were for our purposes.
Which, it's been a given. Always. That's their whole thing "Accuracy, Monitoring for sonic decision making"

So, why is it that they are not the first choice? I couldn't think that running an extra cable could get in the way of choosing them over Passives. Since you only need to run it once.

Which leads me to the "Live Sound" Powered Speakers. I can't seem to find any information about how would they fare in Home Theater or any examples.

Nevertheless, I'm thinking of going this route given that I'm very familiar with them.

This is the idea:
QSC K12.2 for LCR
QSC CP8 for Surrounds
Emotiva RMC-1L for Processing
For In-Ceilings I figured that some well reviewed 8-inch's with a simple pair of stereo amps will do.
For Subs, well haven't decided what model but seems that the brand that is a no brainer is SVS. Which I already own one of their subs & I'm pleased with it.

So would love to hear what you guys have to say! I'm sure I can't be the only one going with this train of thought...

Ideally, yes, but not like the ones you mentioned for the most part (those QSC are nice BTW). Active DSP based systems have a tremendous benefit considering how far and how well Class D amps have come.

For installed systems in dedicated rooms it much easier then a co-use rooms, so there will always be those that it's not feasible to do.

Genelec, Neumann, Grammitti, Seaton, RBH, RTJ and other manufacturers provide excellent products, just not cheap...

 

[j_garcia]

There is already another thread for this. Pick one, we don't need two.

 

[everettT]

There is already another thread for this. Pick one, we don't need two.

I didn't even notice. Maybe a @jinjuku can merge the replies?

 

[lovinthehd]

Some go the route you're considering, but it tends to be a minority of folk. I use pro sound amps for diy subs and also for main channels as needed is as close as I got. Most of my gear is aimed at the passive speaker side of things, plus am in an older house with limited number of outlets/locations to make multich active speakers not very interesting for me, but could be something I'd consider otherwise.

I've read too many issues about buggy Emotiva pre-pros myself; I'd probably stick with Yamaha or Marantz for such myself.

SVS makes good subs but so do several others (like Hsu, JTR/RTJ, Monolith, Rythmik, etc) but the customer service package SVS offers can be very nice. Or buy some drivers and go diy is another way to go....

 

[ndiaz]

Some go the route you're considering, but it tends to be a minority of folk. I use pro sound amps for diy subs and also for main channels as needed is as close as I got. Most of my gear is aimed at the passive speaker side of things, plus am in an older house with limited number of outlets/locations to make multich active speakers not very interesting for me, but could be something I'd consider otherwise.

I've read too many issues about buggy Emotiva pre-pros myself; I'd probably stick with Yamaha or Marantz for such myself.

SVS makes good subs but so do several others (like Hsu, JTR/RTJ, Monolith, Rythmik, etc) but the customer service package SVS offers can be very nice. Or buy some drivers and go diy is another way to go....

I've considered The Denon X8500h & using THIS to make it work with these QSC's. Reason I went with Emotiva Processor is Dirac since is the go-to it seems. Thoughts?

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes please. No double posting and all that. #facepalm

 

[TLS Guy]

All comes down to:

1. Cost. For most people, passive speakers cost a lot less for what they want. For example, the SAME speaker with the added amps/DSP could cost TWICE as much or more.

2. Many audiophiles already have their own amps. Why spend more on more amps inside the speakers? It's along the line of buying separate pre-pros and amps, instead of an AVR. If you already have the amps, you can just upgrade the pre-pros.

3. Amps inside speakers/subs are small plate amps. Many audiophiles don't like small plate amps to power their speakers for a variety of reasons. For one, some people feel that separate amps can be more RELIABLE than small plate amps inside the speakers.

4. If the amps/DSP inside the large heavy speakers fail, it's more inconvenient to repair/replace than a separate external amp. What happens in 10 years if the manufacturers no longer have these built-in amps/DSP?

5. Some audiophiles feel that SEPARATE is just better, whether it is for separate pre-pros vs AVR or speakers or subs, etc.

YMMV. For some, powered speakers is the way to go. But for most people, it's not the way to go. Same with anything else.

For example, I've always used passive subwoofers since I started this hobby back when I was in college. I still use ONLY passive subwoofers. Yet, probably 99.9% of all people use powered subwoofers.

Whatever works best for you is the right answer, regardless of what MOST people do.

The state if the art is in flux. Active powered speakers will make steady gains. The reasons are many. Active crossovers do not have line losses, can be made more precise and time aligned. Passive crossovers in the bass decades are a particular problem and can not compete or come close to the performance of active crossovers. I have used active crossovers in the bass decades since the late seventies. Now, that there are small reliable class D amps, coupled with DSP for accurate Eq of drivers, and time alignment, it becomes a no brainer. Given the choice, no one would pick the passive crossover on performance and SQ.

The other issue is that because of the power and efficiency, more powerful and smaller boxes can be made to perform well. This is a huge advantage in home HT because of the proliferation of channels. There are already far to many power amps in receivers already. If you use traditional style power amps, then you get a space problem also.

This system has seven active, and eight passive crossovers, and four speakers with no crossover. This takes 650' of cable from amps to speakers and needs a lot of space. For eighteen amp channels to drive 11 speakers, and that is without it being a fully active system. So the advent of small high quality, and high power class D amps, makes a totally active system practical now. The amps out of site in the speakers.

The dam is about to burst, and it will be sooner than you think, for active speakers to become standard practice. The benefits and rewards, will be highly significant.
Current practice is about to become the "Bad Old Days."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The dam is about to burst, and it will be sooner than you think, for active speakers to become standard practice. The benefits and rewards, will be highly significant.
Current practice is about to become the "Bad Old Days."

That tune has been played like an old broken record.

We‘ll believe it when we SEE it.

You see any ACTIVE B&W Diamond towers? No.

You see any ACTIVE Revel Salon2? No.

Active Focal or Dynaudio towers?

The RBH SVTRS is fully active, but at least the amps are 100% EXTERNAL.

Active is fine for speakers. Active is great for subwoofers. But let’s keep the amps EXTERNAL so we can use our own amps and replace them any given day when we feel like it.

How many Audioholics members have owned a fully active system? Less than 1%?

I used to owned the Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1 Fully Active System about 8 years ago.

Now the ONLY ACTIVE system I have are my twelve SUBWOOFERS (EXTERNALLY POWERED), not the speakers.

As they say, the proof is in the putting.

Until that ACTUALLY happens, it’s just the SAME OLD talk. Nothing but talk.

So answer this NO BRAINER question: What do most people do when the INTERNAL amps fail and the warranty expires in 1-3 years (internal amps have much shorter warranty period than some external amps, Bryston 20YR, ATI 7YR) or if there is a SHORTAGE of the internal amps or they just don’t make those internal amps anymore?

You don’t think that’s going to happen? We‘ve seen this happens many times.

Definitely a no-brainer when the internal amps fail and they no longer make those amps.

 

[everettT]

That tune has been played like an old broken record.

We‘ll believe it when we SEE it.

You see any ACTIVE B&W Diamond towers? No.

You see any ACTIVE Revel Salon2? No.

Active Focal or Dynaudio towers?

The RBH SVTRS is fully active, but at least the amps are 100% EXTERNAL.

Active is fine for speakers. Active is great for subwoofers. But let’s keep the amps EXTERNAL so we can use our own amps and replace them any given day when we feel like it.

How many Audioholics members have owned a fully active system? Less than 1%?

I used to owned the Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1 Fully Active System about 8 years ago.

Now the ONLY ACTIVE system I have are my twelve SUBWOOFERS (EXTERNALLY POWERED), not the speakers.

As they say, the proof is in the putting.

Until that ACTUALLY happens, it’s just the SAME OLD talk. Nothing but talk.

So answer this NO BRAINER question: What do most people do when the INTERNAL amps fail and the warranty expires in 1-3 years (internal amps have much shorter warranty period than some external amps, Bryston 20YR, ATI 7YR) or if there is a SHORTAGE of the internal amps or they just don’t make those internal amps anymore?

You don’t think that’s going to happen? We‘ve seen this happens many times.

Definitely a no-brainer when the internal amps fail and they no longer make those amps.

I'd be comfortable with their service after the initial warranty period.

Warranty & Lifetime - Genelec.com

Genelec products are renowned for their bulletproof reliability and extremely long lifespan. For decades, we've been building long-lasting solutions for audio professionals, starting with our very first S30 studio monitor back in 1978. And although we've expanded our horizons since then to...

www.genelec.com

 

[ndiaz]

That tune has been played like an old broken record.

We‘ll believe it when we SEE it.

You see any ACTIVE B&W Diamond towers? No.

You see any ACTIVE Revel Salon2? No.

Active Focal or Dynaudio towers?

The RBH SVTRS is fully active, but at least the amps are 100% EXTERNAL.

Active is fine for speakers. Active is great for subwoofers. But let’s keep the amps EXTERNAL so we can use our own amps and replace them any given day when we feel like it.

How many Audioholics members have owned a fully active system? Less than 1%?

I used to owned the Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1 Fully Active System about 8 years ago.

Now the ONLY ACTIVE system I have are my twelve SUBWOOFERS (EXTERNALLY POWERED), not the speakers.

As they say, the proof is in the putting.

Until that ACTUALLY happens, it’s just the SAME OLD talk. Nothing but talk.

So answer this NO BRAINER question: What do most people do when the INTERNAL amps fail and the warranty expires in 1-3 years (internal amps have much shorter warranty period than some external amps, Bryston 20YR, ATI 7YR) or if there is a SHORTAGE of the internal amps or they just don’t make those internal amps anymore?

You don’t think that’s going to happen? We‘ve seen this happens many times.

Definitely a no-brainer when the internal amps fail and they no longer make those amps.

I would think that by a time an internal amp fails, better products will be available since is always progressing.

Also, "Live Sound" speakers for the most part, the good ones, are built with the purpose of lasting since they will be thrown around, expose to many different climates & pushed hard.

They will be in a cozy place ")

 

[ndiaz]

The state if the art is in flux. Active powered speakers will make steady gains. The reasons are many. Active crossovers do not have line losses, can be made more precise and time aligned. Passive crossovers in the bass decades are a particular problem and can not compete or come close to the performance of active crossovers. I have used active crossovers in the bass decades since the late seventies. Now, that there are small reliable class D amps, coupled with DSP for accurate Eq of drivers, and time alignment, it becomes a no brainer. Given the choice, no one would pick the passive crossover on performance and SQ.

The other issue is that because of the power and efficiency, more powerful and smaller boxes can be made to perform well. This is a huge advantage in home HT because of the proliferation of channels. There are already far to many power amps in receivers already. If you use traditional style power amps, then you get a space problem also.

This system has seven active, and eight passive crossovers, and four speakers with no crossover. This takes 650' of cable from amps to speakers and needs a lot of space. For eighteen amp channels to drive 11 speakers, and that is without it being a fully active system. So the advent of small high quality, and high power class D amps, makes a totally active system practical now. The amps out of site in the speakers.

The dam is about to burst, and it will be sooner than you think, for active speakers to become standard practice. The benefits and rewards, will be highly significant.
Current practice is about to become the "Bad Old Days."

That picture is what I want to avoid lol

Also, one of things for me, that seems interesting is the whole "making you feel like you're there" when it comes to "pristine live recordings" or "best concert of my live"

All of these "moments" were capture by yes, great pre-amps & microphones & mixing skills.

But the main tool to judge what was being heard was most likely a "Live Sound" speakers & in modern cases, Powered, Active Crossover Speakers.

I'm buying a surf board for when this dam bursts.

 

[everettT]

That picture is what I want to avoid lol

Also, one of things for me, that seems interesting is the whole "making you feel like you're there" when it comes to "pristine live recordings" or "best concert of my live"

All of these "moments" were capture by yes, great pre-amps & microphones & mixing skills.

But the main tool to judge what was being heard was most likely a "Live Sound" speakers & in modern cases, Powered, Active Crossover Speakers.

I'm buying a surf board for when this dam bursts.

I really like the multiple audio streams over a single cat5 network routing through the likes of DANTE, GLM, etc with DSP and crossovers all available. With immersive sound, active speakers, and pro pre pro, then the fun is endless.

Just not cheap

 

[ndiaz]

Same but Yes, not cheap.

I do like what Buchard is doing as well with the Wisa Technology.

I just wish somebody would come out with a dolby atmos processor that could tie in all speakers thru cat5/6 for signal or wisa, if stable.

Perhaps poe for in ceilings/surrounds?

Question,
Is this Wisa Tech available for headphones?

 

[Trell]

I really like the multiple audio streams over a single cat5 network routing through the likes of DANTE, GLM, etc with DSP and crossovers all available. With immersive sound, active speakers, and pro pre pro, then the fun is endless.

Just not cheap

Genelec GLM is for control and not audio.

They do have a “Smart IP” line of monitors that has power, audio and control over IP. The available power is limited by PoE+, and that of course limits the output of the monitors as well.

4430A - Genelec.com

Looking for exceptional sound over IP? The 4430A offers power, audio and loudspeaker management via a single standard CAT cable, delivering unrivalled flexibility, cost-effectiveness and simplicity of installation.

www.genelec.com

 

[everettT]

Genelec GLM is for control and not audio.

They do have a “Smart IP” line of monitors that has power, audio and control over IP. The available power is limited by PoE+, and that of course limits the output of the monitors as well.

4430A - Genelec.com

Looking for exceptional sound over IP? The 4430A offers power, audio and loudspeaker management via a single standard CAT cable, delivering unrivalled flexibility, cost-effectiveness and simplicity of installation.

www.genelec.com

Yes the SAM monitors were what I was referencing, mixed up the control. I wouldn't think PoE would be the best install option. I wanna take a long weekend and go to the Massachusetts showroom and see the setups.

 

[ndiaz]

Genelec GLM is for control and not audio.

They do have a “Smart IP” line of monitors that has power, audio and control over IP. The available power is limited by PoE+, and that of course limits the output of the monitors as well.

4430A - Genelec.com

Looking for exceptional sound over IP? The 4430A offers power, audio and loudspeaker management via a single standard CAT cable, delivering unrivalled flexibility, cost-effectiveness and simplicity of installation.

www.genelec.com

That's awesome, I also found this SDP-55 from JBL that would tie all together thru Dante + Dirac.

No conversion!

if these exists, I'm sure Dante enabled subs are around. No poe for those for sure.

 

[TLS Guy]

That picture is what I want to avoid lol

Also, one of things for me, that seems interesting is the whole "making you feel like you're there" when it comes to "pristine live recordings" or "best concert of my live"

All of these "moments" were capture by yes, great pre-amps & microphones & mixing skills.

But the main tool to judge what was being heard was most likely a "Live Sound" speakers & in modern cases, Powered, Active Crossover Speakers.

I'm buying a surf board for when this dam bursts.

You are thinking about this correctly. It it will be chaos in the development of HT if the amps do not migrate to the speakers. You are correct that active with external amps, creates huge constructional and organizational problems. That is why I designed active solutions for the most critical crossovers and only used passive in the upper octaves, where results are good and line losses small. It is just a fact that passive crossovers in the lower octaves, do cause a harmful bottle neck with dynamic range compression and the loss of half the amp power and usually more depending on order. Getting rid of those bottle necks creates a night day better listening experience.

Speakers connected to the pre/pro via Cat 6 will come and is are being developed. It has to be that way. These constructional pictures show why.

This is the terminal bus for the front half of my room. Those black cables are the speaker cables.

View from chase side.

View from front side.

The speaker terminal bus for the rear half of the room.

It makes an equipment chase mandatory, so the 'engine room' is unseen.

If the state of the art is going to progress, then active speakers are a vital transition. Electronics can be made very reliable. It already is in cars, planes and vital infrastructure. Speaker systems in cars, are already active by the way, in case nobody has realized that yet!

At the moment speakers and the receivers that drive them, are the choke point to improvement. That is to say nothing of the disgraceful reliability of receivers.

Things do need to move forward, and hopefully more members will see the huge benefits to be gained from this approach. Prices are high now, but as this approach becomes prevalent, I think it will actually reduce costs.

 

[Trell]

Yes the SAM monitors were what I was referencing, mixed up the control. I wouldn't think PoE would be the best install option. I wanna take a long weekend and go to the Massachusetts showroom and see the setups.

A big advantage is that an inexpensive CAT6 could be used for both power and audio, along with control. That should simplify the installation with regards power outlets and cabling.

For home use I don’t see this will be much at all, at least not for some time.