The Jan 6 Commission hearings

[Swerd]

Today, for the first time since they began, I listened to some of the Jan. 6 Commission hearings.

I heard the Georgia Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, the state’s top election official, explain how Trump lost that state in the 2020 election. 28,000 ballots were cast where voters avoided choosing any candidate for US President. These same ballots largely choose GOP candidates in down-ballot elections. Trump lost to Biden in Georgia by a margin of 11,780 votes, among a total of about 5 million cast ballots.

Those numbers were confirmed by three recounts – one of them was a time consuming hand recount. Raffensperger's testimony clearly and quite simply explains just how Trump lost. All without invoking any claims of voting fraud. And all those votes were documented on paper.

Back in November 2020, I remember hearing about the vote recounts in Georgia, and especially the pressure Trump directly applied on Raffensperger. I clearly remember hearing recordings of Trump begging him during a phone call to “just find me 11,780 more votes”. But I hadn’t heard about those 28,000 ballots where voters, who otherwise voted GOP, refused to cast a vote for president, until today.

 

[Trell]

I've not seen the hearings myself but have read some the reports from them. The US democracy is more fragile than many would like to believe, and where it not for a number of elected Republicans the attempted self-coup could very well have succeeded.

Sadly, many people in the Republican party appears to try again in 2024.

 

[shadyJ]

While the January 6 committee's activity is informative, I think it's only useful in documenting the fall of American democracy and the country as a whole. Most Americans don't care very much. And so many people are stuck in their own bubble that these hearings are not likely to change anyone's mind. All most Americans care about is their wallets. I think if a presidential election were held today between Trump and Biden, Trump would win, and I think he is the odds-on favorite for 2024, despite being openly corrupt and nakedly fascistic. The USA will exit NATO. and China may well swallow Taiwan without any contest from the USA. Trump's victory will again degrade every single governmental and civil institution of the USA.

 

[OHMisback]

I have a feeling the Jan 6 ruckus will some how invoke a NEW security system that will at least "prevent" a breach again. That was the only issue I saw.

Good lord 300 Spartans held off how many?

The whole thing was set to fail. How many times do people do things and warn OTHERS they are going to do it?

How wide was that FRONT DOOR or opening? Did they repel in? Wrong person in the door way period.

Was the Uvalde police chief in charge or what?

The heroes in that catastrophe are the kids, teachers and parents. I was born in Waco Texas. I have lived in CA for 50+ years. I'm positive CA cops, parents and PEOPLE would have stormed the joint in less than 10 minutes. You could not have held back the parents. NO WAY.. At least where I live. Better to be fodder than tormented. There was no good alternative, but waiting was NOT an with shot being fired..

RoboCop would have been real nice as of late. Maybe Judge Dredd too.

Something is broke, we need a real good mechanic/doctor/preacher/teacher/ Gentle woman/men to run the country. I think 3 is the right number. One at a time sure isn't working. The one universal thing. Most governments are at best a compromise of lesser thieves, liars and what ever else is left over.. I'm sure some rate better than others, but for the most part, they are all for sale to one degree or another. I know I sure was. More money more work.. pretty simple..

 

[Swerd]

While the January 6 committee's activity is informative, I think it's only useful in documenting the fall of American democracy and the country as a whole. Most Americans don't care very much. And so many people are stuck in their own bubble that these hearings are not likely to change anyone's mind. All most Americans care about is their wallets. I think if a presidential election were held today between Trump and Biden, Trump would win, and I think he is the odds-on favorite for 2024, despite being openly corrupt and nakedly fascistic. The USA will exit NATO. and China may well swallow Taiwan without any contest from the USA. Trump's victory will again degrade every single governmental and civil institution of the USA.

I hear you and share your fears. Kind of.

It's also the 50th Anniversary of Watergate! And, I'm old enough to remember it quite well. The Watergate break-in occurred on 17 June 1972, and Nixon resigned on 9 August 1974. (I was 23 to 25 years old during that time.) It only took two years and two months. Looking back, that seems quick. But at the time it seemed like it took forever.

• Most of that time, Nixon was in heavy stonewall mode, denying everything, while his administration slowly crumbled around him. Many of his closest White House advisors were either fired or resigned, and were eventually indicted. But Nixon insisted he was innocent, saying famously "I Am Not a Crook!".
• Some time around the spring of 1974, public opinion began to shift. Cracks & fissures in Nixon's stone wall appeared, becoming permanent. First, transcripts (heavily redacted) of many (but not all) of his White House tapes were released. None of them directly incriminated Nixon, but people were shocked at how vicious he was, and how foul his language was. 'Expletive Deleted' became a familiar catch phrase that everyone laughed at. This was especially true for the solid Nixon supporters – Nixon's so-called Silent Majority. When people laughed at Nixon, it was a sign that his public support was gone.
• In April 74, Nixon's tax returns were made public, revealing how he had paid ZERO taxes for the past two years. People all around the country were angered and offended. That, plus all those Deleted Expletives contributed to his loss of public support.
• In late May 74, the House Judiciary Committee passed the Articles of Impeachment.
• A week or two later, the US Supreme Court ruled unanimously (8-0) that Nixon could not keep his White House tapes secret anymore. He was ordered to release them immediately. The court's opinion, written by the Chief Justice Warren Burger, a Nixon appointee, made it clear that no president was above the law. One of the tapes (the so-called smoking gun tape) clearly showed that Nixon personally ordered the cover-up of the Watergate break-in, and that he authorized the payment of hush money to buy silence from the burglars. That hush money was part of an illegal slush fund that Nixon had illegally obtained from private contributors, in cash.
• Within days, no more than a week, Nixon was gone.

It's obvious to all readers that Watergate is my favorite political scandal. But here's my point. During most of that 26 months, the public thought Nixon was innocent – or – he was guilty but would manage to get away with it. Only in the last 2 months did it become increasingly clear that he was dead meat. A month after Nixon resigned, people were infuriated by Gerald Ford's premptive pardon for Nixon. They wouldn't have been as furious at Ford if Nixon hadn't already completely lost public opinion.

Despite what we've all seen so far with Trump and his attempted coup, I'm not convinced that he will get away with it. Public opinion is slow to change – sometimes painfully slow. But when it finally does change, it happens fast.

 

[shadyJ]

I hear you and share your fears. Kind of.

It's also the 50th Anniversary of Watergate! And, I'm old enough to remember it quite well. The Watergate break-in occurred on 17 June 1972, and Nixon resigned on 9 August 1974. (I was 23 to 25 years old during that time.) It only took two years and two months. Looking back, that seems quick. But at the time it seemed like it took forever.

• Most of that time, Nixon was in heavy stonewall mode, denying everything, while his administration was slowly crumbling around him. Many of his closest White House advisors were either fired or resigned, and were eventually under indictment. But Nixon insisted he was innocent, saying famously "I Am Not a Crook!".
• Some time around the spring of 1974, things began to shift. Sometime in the spring cracks & fissures appeared and remained. Transcripts (heavily redacted) of many (but not all) of his White House tapes were released. None of it was directly incriminating, but people were shocked at how vicious he was, and how foul his language was. This especially true for the solid Nixon supporters.
• In April 74, his tax returns were made public, revealing how he had paid ZERO taxes for the past two years. That also contributed to his loss of public opinion support.
• In late May 74, the House Judiciary Committee passed the Articles of Impeachment.
• A week or two later, the US Supreme Court ruled unanimously (8-0) that Nixon could not keep his White House tapes secret anymore. He was ordered to release them immediately. The court's opinion was written by the Chief Justice Warren Burger, a Nixon appointee. One of the tapes (the so-called smoking gun tape) clearly showed hard evidence that Nixon personally ordered the cover-up of the break-in, and he authorized the payment of hush money to buy silence from the Watergate burglars. That hush money was part of an illegal slush fund that illegally obtained from private contributors.
• Within days, or no more than a week, Nixon was gone.

It's obvious to all readers that Watergate is my favorite political scandal. But here's my point. During most of that 26 months, the public thought Nixon was innocent, or that he was guilty but would manage to get away with it. Only in the last 2 months did it become clear to everyone that he was dead meat.

Despite what we've all seen so far with Trump and his attempted coup, I'm not convinced that he will get away with it. Public opinion is slow to change, sometimes painfully slow. But when it finally does change, it happens fast.

I think what might help change public opinion is simply a good movie about the January 6 insurrection. It would be very easy to translate into a movie with an ensemble cast. It's almost perfect for the standard three-act structure of a screenplay. How is a movie about this even not already in the works? I guess it would be very difficult to film if you were not able to secure permission to use the locales of the capitol building.

 

[Swerd]

I hope Hollywood is checking for wind changes in public opinion on a regular basis. Where's Woodward & Bernstein (Robert Redford & Dustin Hoffman) when we really need them? If memory serves me right, the movie All the President's Men came out sometime in 1976, nearly 2 years after Nixon flew away on that helicopter. Wikipedia says it was released 4 April 1976.

No Hollywood actor will want to portray Trump (Johnny Depp?) but there is plenty of existing news footage of Trump. I think it would piss off Trump if he never appeared in the film. I'm not sure, but I think Nixon's face and voice never were part of that movie.

Computer graphics should make it easy to simulate the Capitol building and the mob. But what we lack is a Deep Throat character.

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't seen the latest edition, was too nice a day to stay in I have followed it otherwise. I do like them but agree the people who really need to absorb this likely won't even watch let alone absorb. It's really sad that the fascists that are today's republicans were willing to throw away our form of government for a grifter like drumph. Then again many republicans are grifters, so....

 

[ryanosaur]

Meh.
Democratic (governmental) principles are not too different from Economic principles as there is a serious element of exploitation built into the system.
I think the US has done far better than many over the years in both exploiting the voting populace, as well as recognizing the unfortunate aspects of this.
Capitalism, on the other hand is firmly enshrined in the exploitation of the worker.
I think a major problem (as it regards both political and economic models) is that it takes far too long for people to come to terms with this.

*blinks

I'm just too fcuking hot right now to take that further.

Where's my Shake?

"Oh, Yeah..."

I'm gonna excuse myself and fanatsize about riding that, Dr. Strangelove style.

Bye.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Today, for the first time since they began, I listened to some of the Jan. 6 Commission hearings.
... I clearly remember hearing recordings of Trump begging him during a phone call to “just find me 11,780 more votes”. But I hadn’t heard about those 28,000 ballots where voters, who otherwise voted GOP, refused to cast a vote for president, until today.

I have not heard about those 28,000 votes either. WOW. If I heard it today, didn't hear it clearly to make sense what was that about. Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think I did notice that report....so these were republicans who were just not drumphy supporters? Makes sense to me....or they're too stupid to fill out the ballot correctly....Georgia can elect MTG, anything's possible as far as stupidity goes.

 

[shadyJ]

I hope Hollywood is checking for wind changes in public opinion on a regular basis. Where's Woodward & Bernstein (Robert Redford & Dustin Hoffman) when we really need them? If memory serves me right, the movie All the President's Men came out sometime in 1976, nearly 2 years after Nixon flew away on that helicopter. Wikipedia says it was released 4 April 1976.

No Hollywood actor will want to portray Trump (Johnny Depp?) but there is plenty of existing news footage of Trump. I think it would piss off Trump if he never appeared in the film. I'm not sure, but I think Nixon's face and voice never were part of that movie.

Computer graphics should make it easy to simulate the Capitol building and the mob. But what we lack is a Deep Throat character.

I think there are a lot of good actors that would love to do Trump. While I didn't see it, Brendan Gleeson supposedly did a good Trump in "The Comey Rule." However, I don't think a movie about the January 6 insurrection should feature Trump as a principal character. I would film it more as an in-the-moment movie like Medium Cool and have Paul Greenglass direct. Or you could zoom out and give it all more context in a miniseries like HBO's Chernobyl.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think what might help change public opinion is simply a good movie about the January 6 insurrection. It would be very easy to translate into a movie with an ensemble cast. It's almost perfect for the standard three-act structure of a screenplay. How is a movie about this even not already in the works? I guess it would be very difficult to film if you were not able to secure permission to use the locales of the capitol building.

To have any beneficial impact on GOP-voter opinion, it would have to come out well before the next presidential election. Is there sufficient time for that? If Trump wins the next one I think the odds of it being released would be pretty slim - over the short term, at least.

I'm surprised it took this long for a thread on the Jan 6th hearings to appear here. I understand there is probably a lot of "Trump-fatigue" setting in, but I think it behooves Americans to pay attention. Sadly, the ones who most need to pay attention are probably the least likely to do so.

 

[Swerd]

I'm surprised it took this long for a thread on the Jan 6th hearings to appear here. I understand there is probably a lot of "Trump-fatigue" setting in, but I think it behooves Americans to pay attention. Sadly, the ones who most need to pay attention are probably the least likely to do so.

I waited for a while to start it. I wanted to get over some of my own Trump-fatigue, and I wanted to have enough dry ammunition before I started. Yesterday's hearings provided plenty of that.

They presented state government people from states like Arizona or Georgia, Republican states that flipped for Biden in 2020. Most all who spoke yesterday were Republicans with solid reputations. And all were trashed by Trump, Giuliani, et al because they didn't fold to the false claims, illegal demands, and personal threats.

Rusty Bowers, Speaker of the Arizona House, gave the most powerful and dramatic testimony. I think he'll be hard for many Republicans to ignore as the hearings continue. But I believed Brad Raffensperger, Georgia Sec. of State, was the most quotable. His ballot info made it crystal clear why Trump lost Georgia. Trump and his extremists simply failed to recognize how many Republicans would continue to vote Republican, but refused to vote for Trump a second time. They may have been previously silent, but they're not gonna let Trump to go to the White House again.

 

[Mikado463]

While the January 6 committee's activity is informative, I think it's only useful in documenting the fall of American democracy and the country as a whole. Most Americans don't care very much. And so many people are stuck in their own bubble that these hearings are not likely to change anyone's mind. All most Americans care about is their wallets. I think if a presidential election were held today between Trump and Biden, Trump would win, and I think he is the odds-on favorite for 2024, despite being openly corrupt and nakedly fascistic. The USA will exit NATO. and China may well swallow Taiwan without any contest from the USA. Trump's victory will again degrade every single governmental and civil institution of the USA.

one can only pray you are wrong and there are enough level headed conservatives out there to see to it !

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have not heard about those 28,000 votes either. WOW. If I heard it today, didn't hear it clearly to make sense what was that about. Thanks.

I need to thank all those 28,000 good folks as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If those 28,000 voters were all republicans, how did Georgia elect 2 democrat senators?

 

[SithZedi]

one can only pray you are wrong and there are enough level headed conservatives out there to see to it !

With the economy being the way it is I wouldn't count on it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539604110084808706

 

[mtrycrafts]

With the economy being the way it is I wouldn't count on it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539604110084808706

Oh, boy. What would it take for that person to totally disavow Trump?

 

[cpd]

I hear you and share your fears. Kind of.

It's also the 50th Anniversary of Watergate! And, I'm old enough to remember it quite well. The Watergate break-in occurred on 17 June 1972, and Nixon resigned on 9 August 1974. (I was 23 to 25 years old during that time.) It only took two years and two months. Looking back, that seems quick. But at the time it seemed like it took forever.

• Most of that time, Nixon was in heavy stonewall mode, denying everything, while his administration slowly crumbled around him. Many of his closest White House advisors were either fired or resigned, and were eventually indicted. But Nixon insisted he was innocent, saying famously "I Am Not a Crook!".
• Some time around the spring of 1974, public opinion began to shift. Cracks & fissures in Nixon's stone wall appeared, becoming permanent. First, transcripts (heavily redacted) of many (but not all) of his White House tapes were released. None of them directly incriminated Nixon, but people were shocked at how vicious he was, and how foul his language was. 'Expletive Deleted' became a familiar catch phrase that everyone laughed at. This was especially true for the solid Nixon supporters – Nixon's so-called Silent Majority. When people laughed at Nixon, it was a sign that his public support was gone.
• In April 74, Nixon's tax returns were made public, revealing how he had paid ZERO taxes for the past two years. People all around the country were angered and offended. That, plus all those Deleted Expletives contributed to his loss of public support.
• In late May 74, the House Judiciary Committee passed the Articles of Impeachment.
• A week or two later, the US Supreme Court ruled unanimously (8-0) that Nixon could not keep his White House tapes secret anymore. He was ordered to release them immediately. The court's opinion, written by the Chief Justice Warren Burger, a Nixon appointee, made it clear that no president was above the law. One of the tapes (the so-called smoking gun tape) clearly showed that Nixon personally ordered the cover-up of the Watergate break-in, and that he authorized the payment of hush money to buy silence from the burglars. That hush money was part of an illegal slush fund that Nixon had illegally obtained from private contributors, in cash.
• Within days, no more than a week, Nixon was gone.

It's obvious to all readers that Watergate is my favorite political scandal. But here's my point. During most of that 26 months, the public thought Nixon was innocent – or – he was guilty but would manage to get away with it. Only in the last 2 months did it become increasingly clear that he was dead meat. A month after Nixon resigned, people were infuriated by Gerald Ford's premptive pardon for Nixon. They wouldn't have been as furious at Ford if Nixon hadn't already completely lost public opinion.

Despite what we've all seen so far with Trump and his attempted coup, I'm not convinced that he will get away with it. Public opinion is slow to change – sometimes painfully slow. But when it finally does change, it happens fast.

There is a big, big difference between Nixon/Watergate and Trump/January 6 when it comes to public support. That difference is news coverage. Nixon/Watergate had to face a news media that (1) existed on only a handful of channels, and (2) was subject to the Fairness Doctrine. That law required broadcasters to fairly reflect differing viewpoints when reporting on matters of public importance.

The Fairness Doctrine was ended by Reagan's FCC. What that means is that many supporters of Trump/January 6 will never learn enough about it for it to ever change their opinion. I read somewhere that Fox News not only didn't air the first week of hearings they didn't even break for a commercial during the hearings for fear that their viewers may change the station and land on it somewhere else.

So I disagree. I am pretty convinced he will get away with it when speaking of public opinion - his supporters will never learn enough to care enough about it.