Sub Active in Pure Direct

[tmk1986]

Hi Everyone,
I have a question in reference to my Yamaha RX-A2060, Elac Debut B6.2 and Martin Logan Grotto i sub and vinyl playback. I understand what Pure Direct is doing in my receiver, and I like the idea (at least on paper). Where my confusion sets in is when listening to vinyl, with the turntable connected to the phono input of the AVR, and the AVR connected to the sub through both RCA and LFE, I can see the cone of the sub pumping at low frequencies. My understanding is that the sub should be completely bypassed in Pure Direct, but I can verify with my eyes that it isn’t the case. It’s not overly active and is barely audible, but it’s definitely engaged. I’m a bit new to this, so I’m not sure if it’s happening because I have RCA into the sub from the sub pre out on the amp? This leads me to my next point of confusion: I also thought that as soon as Pure Direct is activated, it treats the mains as “large” and bypasses any crossover. This again seems to be in conflict to what I’m witnessing. I think my speakers can probably do an okay job handling the full range of frequencies if that’s my only option here. Do I still need to manually set them to “Large” each time I want to listen to a record?
What I want is the cleanest possible path from my turntable to the speakers, with as much bass management as possible. Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide any insight!

 

[XEagleDriver]

. . . Yamaha RX-A2060, Elac Debut B6.2 and Martin Logan Grotto i sub and vinyl playback.
. . .
I’m not sure if it’s happening because I have RCA into the sub from the sub pre out on the amp?

You hit the nail on the head, disconnect the RCA inputs to the sub.
The RCA pre-amp outputs are active regardless of Pure Direct or any other selected mode.
- From the subs perspective, if it gets a signal, RCA or LFE, it is going to amplify and produce it. Pure Direct will disable the LFE side of things.

. . I also thought that as soon as Pure Direct is activated, it treats the mains as “large” and bypasses any crossover.
. . . Do I still need to manually set them to “Large” each time I want to listen to a record?

NO, you should be able to set it once.it.
- Check your 2-Channel settings in the AVR menu, you should be able to set it to LARGE in there and forget about it. (in an Italian accent )

What I want is the cleanest possible path from my turntable to the speakers, with as much bass management as possible.

You either mistyped here or are confused; "with as much bass management as possible" would include, not exclude, the sub????

Cheers,
XEagleDriver



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[tmk1986]

You hit the nail on the head, disconnect the RCA inputs to the sub.
The RCA pre-amp outputs are active regardless of Pure Direct or any other selected mode.
- From the subs perspective, if it gets a signal, RCA or LFE, it is going to amplify and produce it. Pure Direct will disable the LFE side of things.

NO, you should be able to set it once.it.
- Check your 2-Channel settings in the AVR menu, you should be able to set it to LARGE in there and forget about

You either mistyped here or are confused; "with as much bass management as possible" would include, not exclude, the sub????

Cheers,
XEagleDriver



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Thanks so much! When I said bass management, what I should have said was “getting as much bass as possible” - I didn’t mean bass management in the feature of the AVR sense. You seem to be indicating that I should WANT to fully bypass the sub in Pure Direct mode - is that the case? Most of what I read online was people bemoaning the fact that they can’t use their sub in Pure Direct mode, it seems I can using the RCA connections. I’m curious to know why you recommend disconnecting it and setting the speakers to large (not being dismissive - trying to learn!)


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[lovinthehd]

Some avrs can use the sub even in direct, but didn't think Yamaha was one (I can do it on my Denon, either setting speakers to large or small, just a special 2ch mode). I wouldn't think you'd need to disconnect the sub from the pre-out unless you never in any case wanted to use the sub. Might check your manual for Extra Bass settings....that's how you would normally use the sub with speakers set to large. Large generally means don't use bass management, small means use it. I prefer using the sub in direct, particularly for bass-light vinyl.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Thanks so much! When I said bass management, what I should have said was “getting as much bass as possible” - I didn’t mean bass management in the feature of the AVR sense. You seem to be indicating that I should WANT to fully bypass the sub in Pure Direct mode - is that the case? Most of what I read online was people bemoaning the fact that they can’t use their sub in Pure Direct mode, it seems I can using the RCA connections. I’m curious to know why you recommend disconnecting it and setting the speakers to large (not being dismissive - trying to learn!)


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I don't recommend not using the sub.
Sub bass, when properly integrated, is better than tower bass in most cases .
I was just explaining how to eliminate sub in PD mode, since that seemed to be what you were trying to achieve. My bad.

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[tmk1986]

@XEagleDriver @lovinthehd thanks again for the thoughts. Next up: I feel like speakers set to small, sub getting frequency from RCA and AVR in Pure Direct is probably going to give me the cleanest signal while still allowing the sub to handle the lowest lows, which should theoretically, let my mains shine more in mids/highs. Granted, I’m a bit newer to vinyl than digital, but I shouldn’t be “missing out” on any bass (since that does tend to be lighter in vinyl to @lovinthehd point) since the crossover is still in effect. Is my thinking correct on this?

 

[lovinthehd]

While I'm still curious what setting combo yields the sub in direct mode on Yamaha (think it's got to do with that natural straight and whatever else they call sound modes), if you want to use the sub without the double bass thing, I'd simply set the speakers to small and set an appropriate crossover (I'd start at 80 for that and try both higher and lower crossovers from there). I certainly don't think there's anything particularly pure about 2ch when it comes to what speaker/sub combo to use or not, just preference. Then again I barely bother with vinyl these days.

 

[tmk1986]

While I'm still curious what setting combo yields the sub in direct mode on Yamaha (think it's got to do with that natural straight and whatever else they call sound modes), if you want to use the sub without the double bass thing, I'd simply set the speakers to small and set an appropriate crossover (I'd start at 80 for that and try both higher and lower crossovers from there). I certainly don't think there's anything particularly pure about 2ch when it comes to what speaker/sub combo to use or not, just preference. Then again I barely bother with vinyl these days.

Yamaha has Direct and Pure Direct. The reason I’m getting sub output with PD (again, the best I can tell) is that I have RCA out and into the sub, which is enabling the same full signal to be sent to it that the mains are getting through speaker cable. Disconnecting the speaker cable from the AVR but leaving the sub connected seems to confirm this as the sub is still pumping, albeit only for the lowest of lows in songs. In my AVR menu, I am set to small with 80Hz crossover as you suggested. I’m just looking for ways to fill out the vinyl sound a bit as I’m bypassing all room EQ, etc. that I use for digital sources.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yamaha has Direct and Pure Direct. The reason I’m getting sub output with PD (again, the best I can tell) is that I have RCA out and into the sub, which is enabling the same full signal to be sent to it that the mains are getting through speaker cable. Disconnecting the speaker cable from the AVR but leaving the sub connected seems to confirm this as the sub is still pumping, albeit only for the lowest of lows in songs. In my AVR menu, I am set to small with 80Hz crossover as you suggested. I’m just looking for ways to fill out the vinyl sound a bit as I’m bypassing all room EQ, etc. that I use for digital sources.

Yes, my Denons and my Onkyo all have direct/pure direct, but still have control over the sub beyond that (or with that), altho just on the Denons IIRC, don't think my Onkyo offers that particularly, think just "stereo" mode uses the sub, but I'd have to look again, its been a while since I've gone thru setup on it.

As far as some bass boost, particularly at lower volumes, you might try Yamaha's variable loudness contour feature, think it's called Yamaha Volume or maybe YPAO Volume?

 

[tmk1986]

Yes, my Denons and my Onkyo all have direct/pure direct, but still have control over the sub beyond that (or with that), altho just on the Denons IIRC, don't think my Onkyo offers that particularly, think just "stereo" mode uses the sub, but I'd have to look again, its been a while since I've gone thru setup on it.

As far as some bass boost, particularly at lower volumes, you might try Yamaha's variable loudness contour feature, think it's called Yamaha Volume or maybe YPAO Volume?

all of that is off the table if I want to use Pure Direct, it disables all volume control on Yamahas.

 

[lovinthehd]

all of that is off the table if I want to use Pure Direct, it disables all volume control on Yamahas.

Why use pure direct, tho?

 

[tmk1986]

Why use pure direct, tho?

well that’s what I’m trying to determine, haha. I wanted as much of an untouched signal chain from turntable to speakers since it’s an analog medium. Pure Direct gets me closest to an all analog signal-chain; I know this doesn’t necessarily mean “better”.
Can anyone weigh in on what exactly is happening when I send then same full-range signal to the sub and to the speakers simultaneously? Since I’m bypassing the crossover set in the AVR menu, how do I determine which frequencies are sent to the sub and which are handled by my mains? I’m trying to establish a clean handoff and reduce any redundancy.

 

[Leemix]

Im not sure how Yamaha handles the signal in pure direct, some AVRs run it through the digital circuits always but it might have a pure analogue throughput also like the upper Marantz(and probably Denon). Just mentioning, i think your Yamaha is in the upper range but didnt check.

Just to be sure, you have the sub connected both to the AVR LFE out AND the right/left pre-out?
If so thats a really bad idea since you will have to use the low pass filter on the sub itself to have it work properly with the speakers and not overlap a lot. This creates problems when the AVR does do bass management or with the LFE track as the sub then crossover a part of what its supposed to play.
The line out left/right RCAs will always send the same, but unamplified, signal as the speaker outs.


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[tmk1986]

Im not sure how Yamaha handles the signal in pure direct, some AVRs run it through the digital circuits always but it might have a pure analogue throughput also like the upper Marantz(and probably Denon). Just mentioning, i think your Yamaha is in the upper range but didnt check.

Just to be sure, you have the sub connected both to the AVR LFE out AND the right/left pre-out?
If so thats a really bad idea since you will have to use the low pass filter on the sub itself to have it work properly with the speakers and not overlap a lot. This creates problems when the AVR does do bass management or with the LFE track as the sub then crossover a part of what its supposed to play.
The line out left/right RCAs will always send the same, but unamplified, signal as the speaker outs.


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thanks - this is getting to the of the matter. I’m not home at the moment, but yes, the sub is connected via L/R RCA out of the sub, and I forget without looking at where I have the LFErunning from - wherever it is, it’s from what the sub manual recommended. I was under the assumption that these were two entirety separate connections that didn’t overlap. Am I better off just using RCA and where exactly is the crossover set in this scenario since both speakers and sub are getting full signal?

 

[lovinthehd]

well that’s what I’m trying to determine, haha. I wanted as much of an untouched signal chain from turntable to speakers since it’s an analog medium. Pure Direct gets me closest to an all analog signal-chain; I know this doesn’t necessarily mean “better”.
Can anyone weigh in on what exactly is happening when I send then same full-range signal to the sub and to the speakers simultaneously? Since I’m bypassing the crossover set in the AVR menu, how do I determine which frequencies are sent to the sub and which are handled by my mains? I’m trying to establish a clean handoff and reduce any redundancy.

After all the processing and eq that was used on the recording I wouldn't worry about the "purity" if for example it leaves the bass lifeless (that could be other issues, too, tho). There's no magic to analog either, even if it an all analog chain (and little vinyl for quite some time is without digital processing in any case). Your sub will have limited ability to use a full range signal, and possibly your sub pre-out is limited as well even without a crossover. Have you gone thru your manual for setup info on when you can set sub/mains in direct? Did you check the Extra Bass setting (pretty sure that's what Yamaha calls it)? I think @Trebdp83 might be able to help....

 

[Leemix]

thanks - this is getting to the of the matter. I’m not home at the moment, but yes, the sub is connected via L/R RCA out of the sub, and I forget without looking at where I have the LFErunning from - wherever it is, it’s from what the sub manual recommended. I was under the assumption that these were two entirety separate connections that didn’t overlap. Am I better off just using RCA and where exactly is the crossover set in this scenario since both speakers and sub are getting full signal?

L/R RCA out is generally only used if there is no bass management option at all so you set the subs own crossover (low pass filter) to have it take over where the speakers naturally roll off. This does not make life easier for the speakers as they play full range, or tries to at least.
The crossover when using L/R RCA out if used is the same high pass filter thats used to remove low frequency below the crossover frequency from the speaker connections. As i mentioned the R/L RCA out is the same but unamplified as the main speaker out connections. So in essence this would remove what the sub is supposed to play from the signal you are sending to the sub. There is overlap however because crossovers are gradual slopes and not hard walls so the sub would play midbass but less and less deeper bass.
The LFE connection sends the LFE track signal and the below crossover signal to the sub.

Use one of them, never both, preferably the LFE out and use the bass management in the AVR. The analogue vinyl sound is from the physical act of making and “reading” the vinyl and it will still be there if you use bass management even if you have to go through the AVR digital circuits. There are some who like the vinyl sound and digitally record off the LP so they can just play back like any other digital song and it does retain the vinyl media artifacts. By far most vinyl are from a digital master that is specially mastered for use with vinyl. (Cutting highs and lows for example)

If you have somewhat big speakers you can just use pure direct, no sub integration needed and enjoy it. (With only the LFE connection)


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[tmk1986]

L/R RCA out is generally only used if there is no bass management option at all so you set the subs own crossover (low pass filter) to have it take over where the speakers naturally roll off. This does not make life easier for the speakers as they play full range, or tries to at least.
The crossover when using L/R RCA out if used is the same high pass filter thats used to remove low frequency below the crossover frequency from the speaker connections. As i mentioned the R/L RCA out is the same but unamplified as the main speaker out connections. So in essence this would remove what the sub is supposed to play from the signal you are sending to the sub. There is overlap however because crossovers are gradual slopes and not hard walls so the sub would play midbass but less and less deeper bass.
The LFE connection sends the LFE track signal and the below crossover signal to the sub.

Use one of them, never both, preferably the LFE out and use the bass management in the AVR. The analogue vinyl sound is from the physical act of making and “reading” the vinyl and it will still be there if you use bass management even if you have to go through the AVR digital circuits. There are some who like the vinyl sound and digitally record off the LP so they can just play back like any other digital song and it does retain the vinyl media artifacts. By far most vinyl are from a digital master that is specially mastered for use with vinyl. (Cutting highs and lows for example)

If you have somewhat big speakers you can just use pure direct, no sub integration needed and enjoy it. (With only the LFE connection)


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great, I’ll disconnect the RCA and listen for what I hear. From what I can see in my manual, I’ll want to connect the LFE to the front pre out in the subwoofer area of my receiver.

 

[tmk1986]

After all the processing and eq that was used on the recording I wouldn't worry about the "purity" if for example it leaves the bass lifeless (that could be other issues, too, tho). There's no magic to analog either, even if it an all analog chain (and little vinyl for quite some time is without digital processing in any case). Your sub will have limited ability to use a full range signal, and possibly your sub pre-out is limited as well even without a crossover. Have you gone thru your manual for setup info on when you can set sub/mains in direct? Did you check the Extra Bass setting (pretty sure that's what Yamaha calls it)? I think @Trebdp83 might be able to help....

I initially looked into Extra Bass, maybe I should revisit. It seems like I’m going to end up just connection the sub to AVR via LFE and testing with a non-Pure Direct setting. You say you use Direct and Extra Bass in conjunction?

 

[lovinthehd]

I initially looked into Extra Bass, maybe I should revisit. It seems like I’m going to end up just connection the sub to AVR via LFE and testing with a non-Pure Direct setting. You say you use Direct and Extra Bass in conjunction?

Sometimes I'll use direct for some recordings but not often unless something sounds off. I don't use the double bass thing, and don't run any speakers large as I have very good subwoofage. Direct is just a button away on the remote, tho....no need to disconnect the subs in any case.

 

[tmk1986]

Sometimes I'll use direct for some recordings but not often unless something sounds off. I don't use the double bass thing, and don't run any speakers large as I have very good subwoofage. Direct is just a button away on the remote, tho....no need to disconnect the subs in any case.

Got it, so just Direct - for vinyl that is, in reference to your earlier post.