Help create an inverse Trigger!

[ryanosaur]

I am looking for a solution to apply a trigger voltage which will activate Standby Mode on Hypex Power Supplies. This will likely need to be an EXTERNAL CIRCUIT.

The standard AVR Trigger Applies that voltage to ACTIVATE an Amp.
If plugged into the Hypex SMPS. it would turn the Amps OFF when I turn on the AVR.

I need to figure out a way to trigger the Amp by doing the opposite, by perhaps taking the AVR Trigger Signal to deactivate a Power Supply and vice versa (to activate the power supply when the Trigger Signal is removed. The requirement would be for a 3.3-12vDC to be sent to the Amp's SMPS.
OR
A Raspberry Pi solution. I know of people that use this, but I know nothing about building such a unit.

I already know how to set the Amps up. I will likely build the Trigger socket into my case and do the connections so I can get my Amps operational. They will work fine without the Trigger.

Any suggestions please?

 

[Eppie]

OK, I'll copy my previous post here just to get this started. Wish I had more experience in circuit design.

An entirely electronic solution would be ideal but it would be easy with a simple mechanical relay and 9V DC power adapter. Feed the 9V through the normally closed contacts on the relay to keep the amp in standby mode. When you power the system on, use the trigger voltage from the AVR to trip the relay and activate the amp. Might need some components in conjunction with the relay to draw the proper amount of current from the trigger out. Maybe a resistor in series to act as a voltage divider. Maybe TLS Guy would have an idea? This could also be done with a switching transistor to eliminate the relay but that will require some proper circuit design.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I don't know if this would offer any help but what I have done to power up my subs is master/slave power adapter. My avr is in master socket and subs are on slave sockets, slave sockets only get power when avr is powered on master socket.

 

[Eppie]

I don't know if this would offer any help but what I have done to power up my subs is master/slave power adapter. My avr is in master socket and subs are on slave sockets, slave sockets only get power when avr is powered on master socket.

That's the dilemma. This amp works backwards and goes on standby with power supplied to the trigger. The designer also recommends against powering them off completely so a switched AC socket is not viable in this case. Hence the need for a reverse trigger.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am looking for a solution to apply a trigger voltage which will activate Standby Mode on Hypex Power Supplies. This will likely need to be an EXTERNAL CIRCUIT.

The standard AVR Trigger Applies that voltage to ACTIVATE an Amp.
If plugged into the Hypex SMPS. it would turn the Amps OFF when I turn on the AVR.

I need to figure out a way to trigger the Amp by doing the opposite, by perhaps taking the AVR Trigger Signal to deactivate a Power Supply and vice versa (to activate the power supply when the Trigger Signal is removed. The requirement would be for a 3.3-12vDC to be sent to the Amp's SMPS.
OR
A Raspberry Pi solution. I know of people that use this, but I know nothing about building such a unit.

I already know how to set the Amps up. I will likely build the Trigger socket into my case and do the connections so I can get my Amps operational. They will work fine without the Trigger.

Any suggestions please?

The simplest way to do this, is have the trigger power a normally closed relay. So when the relay receives power from the relay, the contacts will open, and the power will be cut.

 

[ryanosaur]

It’s not a need per se. However, I can see a hard power cycle delivering a voltage spike. Many users simply do one of two thing… leave idle or switch them.
I’m just curious to explore the standby option.

 

[highfigh]

I am looking for a solution to apply a trigger voltage which will activate Standby Mode on Hypex Power Supplies. This will likely need to be an EXTERNAL CIRCUIT.

The standard AVR Trigger Applies that voltage to ACTIVATE an Amp.
If plugged into the Hypex SMPS. it would turn the Amps OFF when I turn on the AVR.

I need to figure out a way to trigger the Amp by doing the opposite, by perhaps taking the AVR Trigger Signal to deactivate a Power Supply and vice versa (to activate the power supply when the Trigger Signal is removed. The requirement would be for a 3.3-12vDC to be sent to the Amp's SMPS.
OR
A Raspberry Pi solution. I know of people that use this, but I know nothing about building such a unit.

I already know how to set the Amps up. I will likely build the Trigger socket into my case and do the connections so I can get my Amps operational. They will work fine without the Trigger.

Any suggestions please?

Do you need standby or total power shutoff?

Smart outlets are easy to use and they handle 15A. I use Feit and Energizer Connect, but most will work.

 

[ryanosaur]

The simplest way to do this, is have the trigger power a normally closed relay. So when the relay receives power from the relay, the contacts will open, and the power will be cut.

OK. So this jibes with my instinct above as both simple and efficacious.

How do I do it?


I'm assuming I need a power supply, a dc low voltage converter, A relay switch as you say... Perhpas a resistor to bring the trigger out voltage down so it stays safely below 12v...
I would guess the input trigger signal goes to the relay switch, which I would further guess needs to be powered (hence the suggestion of the ac power supply and dc low voltage converter).

It strikes me as I type this that there should be a device like this in existence...
In my garden I have an AC wall wort that converts to low-voltage DC out and works from a brain that tells it over rj12 connection when to trigger. In this case, the trigger activates a solenoid irrigation valve.
Overall the garden controller is much more complicated, but similar in concept...
is there a device that already does this?

 

[ryanosaur]

Do you need standby or total power shutoff?

Smart outlets are easy to use and they handle 15A. I use Feit and Energizer Connect, but most will work.

Wanting to utilize standby and avoid the hard power cycle.

 

[highfigh]

Wanting to utilize standby and avoid the hard power cycle.

Can you post a link to the supply that you're using, possibly with a wiring diagram?

 

[TLS Guy]

OK. So this jibes with my instinct above as both simple and efficacious.

How do I do it?


I'm assuming I need a power supply, a dc low voltage converter, A relay switch as you say... Perhpas a resistor to bring the trigger out voltage down so it stays safely below 12v...
I would guess the input trigger signal goes to the relay switch, which I would further guess needs to be powered (hence the suggestion of the ac power supply and dc low voltage converter).

It strikes me as I type this that there should be a device like this in existence...
In my garden I have an AC wall wort that converts to low-voltage DC out and works from a brain that tells it over rj12 connection when to trigger. In this case, the trigger activates a solenoid irrigation valve.
Overall the garden controller is much more complicated, but similar in concept...
is there a device that already does this?

No, the 12 volt trigger will keep the relay open. You only need the relay, and the 12 volt trigger will keep the relay in the open position. So that will be the reverse as you want, as a 12 volt trigger normally keeps a relay closed to keep the device on while in use.

12 volt relays are common and you need one that opens when 12 volts are applied rather than closes.

 

[highfigh]

A Bosch-style relay that's used in cars will work- no reason to look for anything fancy. You could look for something from Omron, as well.

Bosch-style relays have two tabs that are used for energizing the coil, which 'flips' the switch- those tabs are numbered 85 and 86. Tab 30 can be used for input or output and these aren't directional- these may or may not have three additional tabs- 87 is NO (Normally Open), 87a is NC (Normally Closed) and the AVR's trigger output is designed to handle 150mA, so this type of relay will work.

They're not expensive and you can use a wall wart power supply or a battery for any power that needs to feed a device which would need more than 150mA. A diode may be necessary for suppressing voltage spikes when the relay latches.

Bosch Relay Wiring Diagrams - Wiring View and Schematics Diagram

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www.wiringview.co

The link shows an Omron relay that handles 2A. If you need more current handling capacity, you should be able to find one easily.

https://static.rapidonline.com/catalogueimages/product/60/44/s60-4449p01wl.jpg

To answer the question of "How can I turn off the amp when the AVR turns on?", the Bosch relay will work- connect the wires to 87a and 30, which would be NC (Normally Connected)- when the AVR turns on and the trigger sends 12VDC, the relay will latch and tab 30 will then be connected to tab 87.

 

[ryanosaur]

Stupid busy yesterday so I didn’t get to play.
I did look up relays to learn a little. Not being an electrician it’s not a slam dunk for me.

If I follow correctly, because the SMPS works in opposite when a trigger signal is applied, I need a Relay to supply a steady signal to the SMPS, and BREAK that signal with the AVR tigger.

So an NC Relay.

This can send a steady signal to the SMPS, keeping it in standby until the AVR Trigger switches the relay to open, thus removing the signal from the standby circuit and allowing it to soft-start and power up to full.

I will hopefully get to dig a little deeper later today.

Thsnk you! More questions to come, I’m certain.

 

[ryanosaur]

I thought I had posted this link here... Clearly not. *blushes

https://www.diyclassd.com/img/upload/doc/smps/smps600n400/Documentation/SMPS600N400_05xx_R9.pdf

All pertinent info is on pages 7 and 8 regarding the SMPS Standby Mode and Connector Pinouts.

 

[Eppie]

A lot of small relays have two sets of contacts. One common connection, one normally closed pin and one normally open pin, so you can use it for either normally closed or normally open operation. The other two pins on the relay are for the coil that turns the relay on and off. Your external power adapter (which has constant power) would connect the positive lead to the normally closed pin and the common pin feeds DC to your standby mode pin on the amp to keep it on standby. The trigger out from the AVR/source connects to the coil on the relay so that when power is applied, the relay toggles, cutting power to the standby pin.

It's been a while since I've done any kit building, but my gut tells me not to use a 12V relay and have the trigger line go right to the relay coil and then to ground. I think I would have a resistor between the relay coil and ground to act as a voltage divider and limit current and use a 6V or 9V relay. Is PENG an electrical engineer?

 

[ryanosaur]

A lot of small relays have two sets of contacts. One common connection, one normally closed pin and one normally open pin, so you can use it for either normally closed or normally open operation. The other two pins on the relay are for the coil that turns the relay on and off. Your external power adapter (which has constant power) would connect the positive lead to the normally closed pin and the common pin feeds DC to your standby mode pin on the amp to keep it on standby. The trigger out from the AVR/source connects to the coil on the relay so that when power is applied, the relay toggles, cutting power to the standby pin.

It's been a while since I've done any kit building, but my gut tells me not to use a 12V relay and have the trigger line go right to the relay coil and then to ground. I think I would have a resistor between the relay coil and ground to act as a voltage divider and limit current and use a 6V or 9V relay. Is PENG an electrical engineer?

As for the voltage that needs to be applied to the SMPS, any signal between 3.3 and 12v is acceptable.

If I do this, it would seem wise to scale down that voltage and add some additional safety feature to prevent any spiking or whatnot.

Connecting 5ea. Amp and Power Supply Modules could be expensive if there is a mistake!

Hopefully tonight will see me with time to make more (personal) sense of the relays.

 

[ryanosaur]

The Lady stepped out so I'm taking a little time to play right now.
There is this:

https://www.amazon.com/OMRON-G8HN-H70-MICRO-AUTOMOTIVE-RELAY/dp/B00JPI9950?th=1

and the info sheet:

https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf

It looks like a Micro Relay will do all I need as none of this is High Current application.

This one is 4 posts and can be used in NC.

Some of them I looked at said they required 14v minimum trigger to switch. This included Bosch Relays.
Dunno if I missed it in the spec sheet on this unit. I've read over it a few times but don't see anything.

Thoughts?

(Also noticed what appears to be an indication that some have a built in Diode to prevent surges or spikes from passing when switched.)

 

[Eppie]

Different options available. SPST and DPST can be normally closed as well. SPDT can be used as either NC or NO. Those automotive relays are all fairly high current (on the contacts). You're correct in that a micro relay will do the job in your case. I can't imagine either trigger line drawing much current. Under operation coil for the relay you posted it lists the rated current from 97mA to 125mA. I read somewhere that the trigger out on audio gear supplies around 80mA. I would confirm how much current the trigger out on your source can supply, and look for a relay that draws less than that for the coil.

 

[highfigh]

Stupid busy yesterday so I didn’t get to play.
I did look up relays to learn a little. Not being an electrician it’s not a slam dunk for me.

If I follow correctly, because the SMPS works in opposite when a trigger signal is applied, I need a Relay to supply a steady signal to the SMPS, and BREAK that signal with the AVR tigger.

So an NC Relay.

This can send a steady signal to the SMPS, keeping it in standby until the AVR Trigger switches the relay to open, thus removing the signal from the standby circuit and allowing it to soft-start and power up to full.

I will hopefully get to dig a little deeper later today.

Thsnk you! More questions to come, I’m certain.

Do you remember science class when a wire was wound around a nail and then connected to a battery, so it could pick up paperclips or other small pieces of metal? That's what's happening with tabs 85 and 86- and when energized, they and the parts inside form a solenoid and its magnetic field attracts the piece of steel that's mounted on a movable piece with an electrical contact on it. The base of that part is connected to tab 30 and the contact when not energized connects to tab 87a. When the coil is energized, it makes contact with tab 87.

Think of the relay's coil as your finger flicking a toggle-type switch - it's an 'either/or' device and if you do nothing to it, tab 30 is connected to 87a. Connecting the output of the power supply to tab 30 and the other wire feeding the device connect to tab 87a passes current to the device being powered unless you connect the + of the trigger to 85 and the trigger's ground to tab 86. As soon as that happens, the relay stops the current and the device will shut off/go into standby (depending on the device's connection, e.g., it has one wire for Power and another for standby).

If you have a multimeter, remove a relay from your car and connect it to a battery and light bulb in various ways. Always use 85 and 86 for the coil, then connect one wire for the light to 30 and the other to 87a. You should see it illuminate until you connect 85 and 86 to the battery's terminals. Move the wire from 87a to 87 and you should see it illuminate.

 

[highfigh]

The Lady stepped out so I'm taking a little time to play right now.
There is this:

https://www.amazon.com/OMRON-G8HN-H70-MICRO-AUTOMOTIVE-RELAY/dp/B00JPI9950?th=1

and the info sheet:

https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf

It looks like a Micro Relay will do all I need as none of this is High Current application.

This one is 4 posts and can be used in NC.

Some of them I looked at said they required 14v minimum trigger to switch. This included Bosch Relays.
Dunno if I missed it in the spec sheet on this unit. I've read over it a few times but don't see anything.

Thoughts?

(Also noticed what appears to be an indication that some have a built in Diode to prevent surges or spikes from passing when switched.)

That will work fine. The diode helps with surges, as I mentioned. I like the Bosch-style relays because some have a mounting tab with a hole which can be screwed in place or fastened with a wire tie.

You can go to any auto parts store and find what you need or you can use this-

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12 VDC Automotive 5-Pin Relay SPDT 30/40A Bosch TypeThis Bosch type 12V, 40A relay is widely used in car sound and automotive security installations. The relay features a plastic housing with mounting tab for easy installation. SPDT, 30/40A.

www.parts-express.com