I2S - LVDS what cable to use

[rjharle]

I just bought a Matrix Audio Element I and a question about inputs - Outputs. I attached 2 screenshots from the manual to show what is my problem. Although, many sites say just use an HDMI cable to connect the two I don't think it applies to this configuration.

It looks like I would need a I2S connection (maybe HDMI) for the Input of the DAC and a USB (type A) for the output of a PC or another USB output to play or record?

Therefore, I would need a I2S (HDMI) to USB Type A cable. (I think) would the pinout be correct?

I2S = Circuit-level audio data interchange format (data/timing)
LVDS = Low-voltage differential signaling

 

[-Jim-]

I'll try to assist but I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. Please clarify. Thanks.

If you are looking to record the stereo output, why not use the RCA connections on the left? The USB connection is an input (see page 4 of the manual). As is the coaxial, and Optical => all of which can be connected to a PC if it is your source and has those outputs. Again, see page 4 as this looks pretty straight forward. I see no reason to bother with HDMI. But I could be wrong!

 

[TLS Guy]

I just bought a Matrix Audio Element I and a question about inputs - Outputs. I attached 2 screenshots from the manual to show what is my problem. Although, many sites say just use an HDMI cable to connect the two I don't think it applies to this configuration.

It looks like I would need a I2S connection (maybe HDMI) for the Input of the DAC and a USB (type A) for the output of a PC or another USB output to play or record?

Therefore, I would need a I2S (HDMI) to USB Type A cable. (I think) would the pinout be correct?

I2S = Circuit-level audio data interchange format (data/timing)
LVDS = Low-voltage differential signaling

Why did you buy something you did not know how to engineer?

You will have to ask the manufacturer if you can convert to USB, from the manual it seems it may be possible. If you can though, you will loose the illusory benefit of it. See below.

I am certain you will not be able to convert to HDMI, unless it is somehow compatible with an audio splitter, that would give you analog or optical, may be RC digital. I doubt it is.

I am sure you can not use a standard HDMI input as that unit will not make the required handshake.

Pro audio has now standardized between USB class 2 (most common now) and Firewire. I personally use firewire, as that is how I set my DAW up and RME supports both.

I have researched that LVDS interface. It is more audiophoolery. It is an interface deigned to bypass the USB, and SPDIF interfaces, and directly connect to the DAC chip. So that will make it inconvenient for domestic application because the SPDIF interface is used extensively on domestic audio equipment. Pros also use it, as well as AES/EBU.

Good luck with this!

I have to say you really do have a penchant for running down the Audiophools rabbit holes.

 

[rjharle]

Why did you buy something you did not know how to engineer?

You will have to ask the manufacturer if you can convert to USB, from the manual it seems it may be possible. If you can though, you will loose the illusory benefit of it. See below.

I am certain you will not be able to convert to HDMI, unless it is somehow compatible with an audio splitter, that would give you analog or optical, may be RC digital. I doubt it is.

I am sure you can not use a standard HDMI input as that unit will not make the required handshake.

Pro audio has now standardized between USB class 2 (most common now) and Firewire. I personally use firewire, as that is how I set my DAW up and RME supports both.

I have researched that LVDS interface. It is more audiophoolery. It is an interface deigned to bypass the USB, and SPDIF interfaces, and directly connect to the DAC chip. So that will make it inconvenient for domestic application because the SPDIF interface is used extensively on domestic audio equipment. Pros also use it, as well as AES/EBU.

Good luck with this!

I have to say you really do have a penchant for running down the Audiophools rabbit holes.

It is amazing how you consistently come away from my posts with a response that has nothing to do with the question. I didn't ask about the history of USB, HDMI or I2S. I don't care who designed what, where, when or who they stole the idea from. I was simply asking what kind of cable would be used for the I2S-LVDS input port. I'm not looking to reengineer the DAC or anything else. I think you come up with this crap because you are impressed with yourself and like to use the word Audiophools . BTW not everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid or jumping into rabbit holes. Sure you know some stuff, but it doesn't pertain to what is being asked. Please read the question and if you can contain yourself direct your response to the question.

I bought a DAC because I'm going to play digital music. I intend to connect the unit via the XLR or RCA outputs to the RCA inputs of the AVR. I will introduce digital music files via USB SSD Drive and stream VIA the LAN.

P.S I got this particular DAC (Matrix Audio Element I) because the Audiophools at Audio Science Review tested it and recommended it; not because it had a I2S - LVDS input port.

Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC & Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC and Ethernet/Wifi wireless streamer. It was kindly sent to me by the company and costs US $990. The Element i embodies the beautiful design language of other (newer) Matrix Audio products: The menus and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jinjuku: recommended that site in a previous post:

"Audiosciencereview has an extensive list of equipment with instrumented measurements by the high-end Audio Precision Analyzer"

 

[TLS Guy]

It is amazing how you consistently come away from my posts with a response that has nothing to do with the question. I didn't ask about the history of USB, HDMI or I2S. I don't care who designed what, where, when or who they stole the idea from. I was simply asking what kind of cable would be used for the I2S-LVDS input port. I'm not looking to reengineer the DAC or anything else. I think you come up with this crap because you are impressed with yourself and like to use the word Audiophools . BTW not everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid or jumping into rabbit holes. Sure you know some stuff, but it doesn't pertain to what is being asked. Please read the question and if you can contain yourself direct your response to the question.

I bought a DAC because I'm going to play digital music. I intend to connect the unit via the XLR or RCA outputs to the RCA inputs of the AVR. I will introduce digital music files via USB SSD Drive and stream VIA the LAN.

P.S I got this particular DAC (Matrix Audio Element I) because the Audiophools at Audio Science Review tested it and recommended it; not because it had a I2S - LVDS input port.

Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC & Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC and Ethernet/Wifi wireless streamer. It was kindly sent to me by the company and costs US $990. The Element i embodies the beautiful design language of other (newer) Matrix Audio products: The menus and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jinjuku: recommended that site in a previous post:

"Audiosciencereview has an extensive list of equipment with instrumented measurements by the high-end Audio Precision Analyzer"

Short answer, I don't think such a cable exists or could be built. If you knew how you were to connect it with XLR or RCA why did you not say so? You never make yourself clear, so it is impossible to answer your questions. If you want to use that LVDS connector then you need to connect it to a unit that also has one of those connectors.

 

[rjharle]

Short answer, I don't think such a cable exists or could be built. If you knew how you were to connect it with XLR or RCA why did you not say so? You never make yourself clear, so it is impossible to answer your questions. If you want to use that LVDS connector then you need to connect it to a unit that also has one of those connectors.

I'm not looking to connect the II2S port to anything.
Just curious about the cable.

How did you get your response out of:

"I bought a DAC because I'm going to play digital music. I intend to connect the unit via the XLR or RCA outputs to the RCA inputs of the AVR. I will introduce digital music files via USB SSD Drive and stream VIA the LAN."

Please point out where I'm looking to connect the I2S port to the XLR or RCA inputs Again you are making things up just to be critical.

"6.3 IIS-LVDS Port:
The IIS port of Element I is a standard 19-pin HDMI connector. It uses four sets of LVDS differential signals to transmit IIS data. It supports up to 32Bit/768kHz PCM signal input and1Bit/45.1 MHz DSD signal input. The PCM format is the standard IIS format, the DSD format supports the original DSD format (Native DSD) and the DSD format of DOP encoding. The IIS port of element iIIs compatible with TYPE A, B, C and D. These are 4 different interface definitions, which can be configured in the 8th setting option."

This is the spec for the II2S-LVDS port from the manual there is more info on the two pages at the beginning of the post. Taken into consideration the information from the manual If I should EVER, many years from now, want to connect this port to something what cable would I need.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not looking to connect the II2S port to anything.
Just curious about the cable.

How did you get your response out of:

"I bought a DAC because I'm going to play digital music. I intend to connect the unit via the XLR or RCA outputs to the RCA inputs of the AVR. I will introduce digital music files via USB SSD Drive and stream VIA the LAN."

Please point out where I'm looking to connect the I2S port to the XLR or RCA inputs Again you are making things up just to be critical.

"6.3 IIS-LVDS Port:
The IIS port of Element I is a standard 19-pin HDMI connector. It uses four sets of LVDS differential signals to transmit IIS data. It supports up to 32Bit/768kHz PCM signal input and1Bit/45.1 MHz DSD signal input. The PCM format is the standard IIS format, the DSD format supports the original DSD format (Native DSD) and the DSD format of DOP encoding. The IIS port of element iIIs compatible with TYPE A, B, C and D. These are 4 different interface definitions, which can be configured in the 8th setting option."

This is the spec for the II2S-LVDS port from the manual there is more info on the two pages at the beginning of the post. Taken into consideration the information from the manual If I should EVER, many years from now, want to connect this port to something what cable would I need.

This is what your first post said: -"Therefore, I would need a I2S (HDMI) to USB Type A cable. (I think) would the pinout be correct? So you were talking about connecting that output to USB.

In your second post you said this: - " I intend to connect the unit via the XLR or RCA outputs to the RCA inputs of the AVR." So I assumed you were going to use an analog connection and forget about the 112S-LVDS. I never suggested you would connect the LVDS output to RCA or XLR. I just assumed you were going to make an analog connection.

I should point out that with the link you eventually provided shows that the unit has Toslink, USB and digital RCA coax facilities. So you are more than well covered for anything you could possibly need to do with that unit. I would just forget the unit even has that LVDS connector, which in reality brings absolutely nothing to the table but complication.

You need to be much more precise in your postings, as they a vague in the extreme.

 

[BMXTRIX]

"6.3 IIS-LVDS Port:
The IIS port of Element I is a standard 19-pin HDMI connector. It uses four sets of LVDS differential signals to transmit IIS data. It supports up to 32Bit/768kHz PCM signal input and1Bit/45.1 MHz DSD signal input. The PCM format is the standard IIS format, the DSD format supports the original DSD format (Native DSD) and the DSD format of DOP encoding. The IIS port of element iIIs compatible with TYPE A, B, C and D. These are 4 different interface definitions, which can be configured in the 8th setting option."

This is the spec for the II2S-LVDS port from the manual there is more info on the two pages at the beginning of the post. Taken into consideration the information from the manual If I should EVER, many years from now, want to connect this port to something what cable would I need.

Yes, this is the specification for THEIR I2S port.

The problem is that I2S doesn't include a standardized specification. It does NOT have a standard cable, connection, or pinout from device to device to device and was never meant to act as a externally cabled means of audio transport. It was designed for integrated internal (proprietary) connectivity.

So, you would need a I2S output connection, then figure out all the pinouts, then connect them properly. If you are lucky, you would get an audio source which uses I2S and has the exact same pinout configuration as this device uses, then a simply HDMI cable should work fine. But, because there is NOT a standard pinout, there is no promise that the HDMI cable would work and you might need to cut the HDMI cable and splice all the connectors in the middle to make a connection work.

In simple terms. I2S is stupid. It's just flat out mental. Any communications standard should start with a stanardized interface so that devices can communicate. This is just not part of the way this was designed. Stupid.

There are some sites which discuss it, but Wikipedia just covers how this doesn't have any standardization whatsoever.
Which makes it stupid.

If you go this route, you may not be entirely on your own, but because it is VERY device specific, you would need a lot of time with each specific device to ensure all the pinouts are compatible and a standard HDMI cable will work. Since each device is different, there is no 'standard cable' which anyone can tell you to buy and they don't exist. There is NO I2S cable in the world, since I2S has no standard to build a cable for.

I have no idea what harm would come if you connected a I2S HDMI connection to a standard HDMI input. You could break that input... I wouldn't try it.

I²S - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Specifically:

The I²S connection was not intended to be used via cables, and most integrated circuits will not have the correct impedance for coaxial cables. As the impedance adaptation error associated with the different line lengths can cause differences in propagation delay between the clock line and data line, this can result in synchronization problems between the SCK, WS and data signals, mainly at high sampling frequencies and bitrates. As the I²S bus doesn't have any error detection mechanism, this can cause significant decoding errors.

There is no standard interconnecting cable for this application. Some manufacturers simply provide three BNC connectors, an 8P8C ("RJ45") socket or a DE-9 connector. Others like Audio Alchemy (now defunct) used DIN connectors. PS Audio, Musica Pristina and Wyred4Sound use an HDMI connector. Dutch manufacturer Van Medevoort has implemented Q-link in some of its equipment, which transfers I²S over 4 RCA connectors (data, MCK, LRCK, BCK).

This is a non-consumer format. It is stupid to put it as a connection on any device. Just stupid. It is confusing, as you are finding out, and pointless.

 

[rjharle]

Yes, this is the specification for THEIR I2S port.

The problem is that I2S doesn't include a standardized specification. It does NOT have a standard cable, connection, or pinout from device to device to device and was never meant to act as a externally cabled means of audio transport. It was designed for integrated internal (proprietary) connectivity.

So, you would need a I2S output connection, then figure out all the pinouts, then connect them properly. If you are lucky, you would get an audio source which uses I2S and has the exact same pinout configuration as this device uses, then a simply HDMI cable should work fine. But, because there is NOT a standard pinout, there is no promise that the HDMI cable would work and you might need to cut the HDMI cable and splice all the connectors in the middle to make a connection work.

In simple terms. I2S is stupid. It's just flat out mental. Any communications standard should start with a stanardized interface so that devices can communicate. This is just not part of the way this was designed. Stupid.

There are some sites which discuss it, but Wikipedia just covers how this doesn't have any standardization whatsoever.
Which makes it stupid.

If you go this route, you may not be entirely on your own, but because it is VERY device specific, you would need a lot of time with each specific device to ensure all the pinouts are compatible and a standard HDMI cable will work. Since each device is different, there is no 'standard cable' which anyone can tell you to buy and they don't exist. There is NO I2S cable in the world, since I2S has no standard to build a cable for.

I have no idea what harm would come if you connected a I2S HDMI connection to a standard HDMI input. You could break that input... I wouldn't try it.

I²S - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Specifically:


This is a non-consumer format. It is stupid to put it as a connection on any device. Just stupid. It is confusing, as you are finding out, and pointless.

Thank you for your enlightened response. I guess it would be for some adventurous individual that wants an input directly to the data/timing of the DAC. I don't see how that could be a selling feature and if eliminated would reduce the cost. I have no use for such an input and again thank you for your help.

 

[slipperybidness]

It appears there is a use for the II2S input port. This is a II2S port not a I2S port. The II2S carriers data and timing directly to the DAC chip using an HDMI type A cable The Element I can use other HDMI cable types such as B, C. and D by switching in option 8 of the DAC (The default is Type A). By connecting the II2S to an HDMI or II2S port data and timing can be exchanged.

I have attached the side by side pinouts of the port and the HDMI Type A cable, and they match except for pin 3 not sure if that matters (could be a type O). This port could be used for CD transports and alike.

So the answer to the post is use an HDMI Type A cable.

I have no use for this port, and I was just doing the research to see if Matrix Audio had indeed designed and install a useless port.

The protocol is known as IIS or I2S (different notation for the same protocol, there is no such thing as II2S). You can use any port to do this as long as your pinouts are correct. Heck, you don't even need a port if your pinouts are correct. Example--My RPi streamer uses the GPIO pins to communicate to the DAC hat via I2S protocol, which is ideal in my situation.

You have done nothing but cause confusion for yourself and others here, all for some academic purpose. Alternatively I²S is spelled I2S (pronounced eye-two-ess) or IIS (pronounced eye-eye-ess.

I2S is an efficient, straightforward serial-communication protocol that is great for digitized audio.

@BMXTRIX your post #8 is a bit exaggerated/harsh, but in general you nailed it simply when you stated, "I2S is NOT a consumer protocol". I2S certainly is not "stupid", it is a very useful protocol, used by the engineers that are designing our audio circuits.

The short answer about I2S is-- "If you have to ask, then it is not meant to be used by you"

Start with wiki and educate yourself:

I²S - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rjharle]

The protocol is known as IIS or I2S (different notation for the same protocol, there is no such thing as II2S). You can use any port to do this as long as your pinouts are correct. Heck, you don't even need a port if your pinouts are correct. Example--My RPi streamer uses the GPIO pins to communicate to the DAC hat via I2S protocol, which is ideal in my situation.

You have done nothing but cause confusion for yourself and others here, all for some academic purpose. Alternatively I²S is spelled I2S (pronounced eye-two-ess) or IIS (pronounced eye-eye-ess.

I2S is an efficient, straightforward serial-communication protocol that is great for digitized audio.

@BMXTRIX your post #8 is a bit exaggerated/harsh, but in general you nailed it simply when you stated, "I2S is NOT a consumer protocol". I2S certainly is not "stupid", it is a very useful protocol, used by the engineers that are designing our audio circuits.

The short answer about I2S is-- "If you have to ask, then it is not meant to be used by you"

Start with wiki and educate yourself:

I²S - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would suppose everything you learned was meant to be used by you?

 

[slipperybidness]

I would suppose everything you learned was meant to be used by you?

That is typically why you want to learn things, no?

Like I say, if you have to ask, then you are not the target user for I2S. When you come to that point in your education process that you understand I2S and need to use that protocol, then you will seek out the proper pin-outs and implementation of the protocol, and those items in the manual will make sense to you.

Read the linked wiki on the topic, that explains most of the I2S, certainly more than a layman would generally need.

If the info on the linked wiki is beyond your knowledge, then you need to take a step back and look into a book meant for college level Solid State Devices Classes, and perhaps digital logic.

 

[BMXTRIX]

BMXTRIX your post #8 is a bit exaggerated/harsh, but in general you nailed it simply when you stated, "I2S is NOT a consumer protocol". I2S certainly is not "stupid", it is a very useful protocol, used by the engineers that are designing our audio circuits.

Clearly I2S isn't really stupid when used properly, the way it was designed. But, in the case of using I2S for non-standard purposes, that confuse consumers, and follow non-standardized functionality, it would be stupid. Pretty heavily stupid all around. A stupid for the company that uses it. A stupid for the interface they used. A stupid for him, for her, for everyone. We have lots of stupids to hand out here.

 

[rjharle]

That is typically why you want to learn things, no?

Like I say, if you have to ask, then you are not the target user for I2S. When you come to that point in your education process that you understand I2S and need to use that protocol, then you will seek out the proper pin-outs and implementation of the protocol, and those items in the manual will make sense to you.

Read the linked wiki on the topic, that explains most of the I2S, certainly more than a layman would generally need.

If the info on the linked wiki is beyond your knowledge, then you need to take a step back and look into a book meant for college level Solid State Devices Classes, and perhaps digital logic.

If I was to follow your "never be curious" advice I wouldn't have learned about this nifty little device which is the reason Matrix Audio put the I2s port on their products and I didn't have to go to college to learn what the port was for or how to use it.

X-SPDIF 2 USB Interface

The newly designed USB Audio Class 2.0 asynchronous digital interface X-SPDIF 2, inherited the excellent quality from its last generation.

www.moon-audio.com

Thank you all your help and encouragement.

 

[slipperybidness]

Clearly I2S isn't really stupid when used properly, the way it was designed. But, in the case of using I2S for non-standard purposes, that confuse consumers, and follow non-standardized functionality, it would be stupid. Pretty heavily stupid all around. A stupid for the company that uses it. A stupid for the interface they used. A stupid for him, for her, for everyone. We have lots of stupids to hand out here.

The Oprah of handing out stupids

Yeah, adding this on a device of this nature is basically a "look what we added, it has some neat acronyms and means we can charge our customers more, take advantage of them"

 

[slipperybidness]

If I was to follow your "never be curious" advice I wouldn't have learned about this nifty little device which is the reason Matrix Audio put the I2s port on their products. I didn't have to go to college to learn what the port was for or how to use it.

X-SPDIF 2 USB Interface

The newly designed USB Audio Class 2.0 asynchronous digital interface X-SPDIF 2, inherited the excellent quality from its last generation.

www.moon-audio.com

Thank you all your help and encouragement.

OK,
So, what exactly is this port for on your device? and exactly how will you use it?

I never said you needed to go to college. I simply gave you a link to wiki and told you the topic of the books you need to study to gain the foundations to properly understand the answers to your questions. Nobody needs college if they have access to the proper knowledge and tools. Lab tools tend to be pricey, thus this is part of your college tuition.

My advice is to always be curious! In fact be skeptical! This is part of the real learning process. It is NOT sufficient to read a book, you must also prove to yourself that the info in that book is accurate. We do this with the data that is collected through lab work.

 

[rjharle]

OK,
So, what exactly is this port for on your device? and exactly how will you use it?

I never said you needed to go to college. I simply gave you a link to wiki and told you the topic of the books you need to study to gain the foundations to properly understand the answers to your questions. Nobody needs college if they have access to the proper knowledge and tools. Lab tools tend to be pricey, thus this is part of your college tuition.

My advice is to always be curious! In fact be skeptical! This is part of the real learning process. It is NOT sufficient to read a book, you must also prove to yourself that the info in that book is accurate. We do this with the data that is collected through lab work.

Here it is from the manual:

"X-SPDIF 2 USB Audio Class 2.0 is a new designed asynchronous data transmission digital interface, which inherited the high quality of last generation to make it connect to the other devices through IIS directly. It crossed the quality lost of digital signal caused by protocol conversion, while integrated the high-quality femtosecond clock and FPGA processing unit, to realize a maximum of 32bit/768kHz for PCM signal and 1bit/DSD512 for
signal output."

It looks like the whole concept and device were developed to get the Audiophiles excited; allows them to brag about how their audio sounds so clean and pure. I'd put this in the $500.00 cables box. I'm sure I'll never have a use for the I2s port.

Foe the testing and review:

Review and Measurements of Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 USB Converter

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 USB to S/PDIF and I²S (IIS) converter. It is on kind loan from member who also sent me the Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2 SE DAC. The X-SPDIF 2 costs USD $379 but the company is selling for reduced cost of USD $341.10. Some...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bombatta]

Why did you buy something you did not know how to engineer?

You will have to ask the manufacturer if you can convert to USB, from the manual it seems it may be possible. If you can though, you will loose the illusory benefit of it. See below.

I am certain you will not be able to convert to HDMI, unless it is somehow compatible with an audio splitter, that would give you analog or optical, may be RC digital. I doubt it is.

I am sure you can not use a standard HDMI input as that unit will not make the required handshake.

Pro audio has now standardized between USB class 2 (most common now) and Firewire. I personally use firewire, as that is how I set my DAW up and RME supports both.

I have researched that LVDS interface. It is more audiophoolery. It is an interface deigned to bypass the USB, and SPDIF interfaces, and directly connect to the DAC chip. So that will make it inconvenient for domestic application because the SPDIF interface is used extensively on domestic audio equipment. Pros also use it, as well as AES/EBU.

Good luck with this!

I have to say you really do have a penchant for running down the Audiophools rabbit holes.

Why did you have to bully this person?

Why did you buy something you did not know how to engineer?

You will have to ask the manufacturer if you can convert to USB, from the manual it seems it may be possible. If you can though, you will loose the illusory benefit of it. See below.

I am certain you will not be able to convert to HDMI, unless it is somehow compatible with an audio splitter, that would give you analog or optical, may be RC digital. I doubt it is.

I am sure you can not use a standard HDMI input as that unit will not make the required handshake.

Pro audio has now standardized between USB class 2 (most common now) and Firewire. I personally use firewire, as that is how I set my DAW up and RME supports both.

I have researched that LVDS interface. It is more audiophoolery. It is an interface deigned to bypass the USB, and SPDIF interfaces, and directly connect to the DAC chip. So that will make it inconvenient for domestic application because the SPDIF interface is used extensively on domestic audio equipment. Pros also use it, as well as AES/EBU.

Good luck with this!

I have to say you really do have a penchant for running down the Audiophools rabbit holes.

Why do you feel it necessary to bully this person? He was asking a simple question. Somebody needs to teach you a lesson in manners with a slap to the face.