Amp Upgrade for KefLS50 CXA80 or CX81?

[EBN]

I trust DBTs and my own ears. To my knowledge neither of those has produced any evidence that there are any really audible differences when you take bias out of the equation.

Still so many hears difference when moving from budget receiver to good amp for 2ch listening and even from more expensive receiver to amp which is not what this thread was about. My issue was the Yamaha which is budget model with Aventage stamp and good speakers like LS50. I`m not pushing some crazy high end or tube amps (!), i just posted the link to show some models which has the HT By-Pass feature which may come handy when used with the Yamaha. The other grumpy old dude thinks the ones OP posted are too expensive, but i would say quite typical for most audiophiles. Both brands can be cheaper where he lives also if outside US as he kinda pointed out and he could try the used option which is 50% cheaper if he knows the seller and he gives the unit for home..

Part of this hobby is to listen/test gear which is fun! It doesn´t cost anything other than time and maybe gasoline to get the products so why not?

I´m intrested in the outcome which ever way it goes. But this pointless arguing is waste of time..

 

[killdozzer]

Maybe it was bad joke for old grumpy dude like yourself, but there was nothing wrong in that post! He has cheap receiver which you can buy from market for low cost, sadly the Aventage version will cost more while adding mostly longer warranty.

This is why i rarely write here, persons like you make me so angry with the attacking attitude! Maybe you don´t hear the difference with budget receiver and good speakers like LS50 vs. better amp, but MANY does! You can tell me all the double blind tests, Floyd Toole quotes, the fact that it costs more has to be better etc. But there is still people who can hear the gear being step up from low cost av-receiver! I didn´t say buy high end amp either, you know there is people who spend silly amount of money for the amp to drive LS50 just google. He has the models looked out and he could start with those at home. No pressure to buy anything.

The link i posted has certain models which has HT By-Pass feature which i think would be usefull as he can then use it with movies taking some load off from receiver. The Roksan K3 model mentioned has it for example.

I couldn't give 2 flying f*** what makes you angry. Stop peddling bull and it won't make you angry. I'm glad you already know what I can or can't hear. Nice to know that professionals like Toole don't sway you, but "take it home and give it a listen" is your Bible.

Your posts weren't missed if they were going to be buy overpriced Roksan 'cause I think they are better.

Provide proof and I'll gladly take all my words back.

Or, in fact, here's one tailor made for you; you say MANY does (it should spell many do, but no expectations on my end) and of course human hearing can also be easily tricked and human being is sufficiently bias. So we have; "2ch amps sounding better" and "human hearing being easily tricked". OK, I agree, tell me exactly how you distinguish among the two? And please don't let it be "I trust my ears".

 

[killdozzer]

I´m intrested in the outcome which ever way it goes. But this pointless arguing is waste of time..

So, why you do it?

 

[Trebdp83]

Pardon me killdozzer, could I get by you. I just want to smudge the thread and get some of the bad energy out of here. Oh wow, that’s a lot of smoke. Ok, that should do it, as you were.

 

[lbutron]

Integrated amps aren't magic....they're just old receivers without tuners or digital capabilities or bass management for the most part

Speaking of bass management why are you using what I assume is just the high level inputs on the sub? Does the sub actually have a high pass filter for the speakers? Why not simply use the bass management in the avr? What PSB sub is it particularly?

Is the PSB SUB250
I use two connections:
1) For 2ch Music listening:
I connect the AVR Front (L/R) speakers terminals to the High Pass inputs of the Sub, then the High Outputs of the Sub to the Speakers. That way when select the Pure Direct mode on the AVR its send full range 2ch, then the sub crossover (i set it around 50-60hz) splits it to a 2.1. Also IMHO I get better integration between the sub and the kef´s. and I can use the sub whit Pure Direct mode.
2) For Movies 5.1.2 ch
I connect the AVR LFE output directly to the Sub and then AVR crossover its set around 80hz.

 

[Pogre]

Why use the high level connections at all? Seems unnecessary, and I always thought LFE was better anyway.

 

[lbutron]

Most of what you consider is simply overpriced. Cambridge Audio slightly and Roxan considerably. Out of those choices I could only recommend the one you can get very cheap to cut the needless spending.

But let's take it one step at the time; you feel Yamaha is holding you back how? Try and determine what is it you're actually unhappy with. Don't just suppose that there's something out there and you're chasing it but don't know what it is.

There's a chance Yamaha is not your problem.

I´m comparing from my Headphone setup, HifiMan HE-400i + Schiit Modi/Magni + Playing HiFi Tidal/Roon. And is no near close the detail I can get form that setup, I can hear even the footstep from the artist walking into the studio recording.
I being moving around the speakers an I can here the improvement, also i made some room acoustics: Bass traps in the corners, absorber in the 1st reflection and some diffuser in the back wall. Also I put a thick carpet over a tile floor, and a big sofa

 

[lovinthehd]

Is the PSB SUB250
I use two connections:
1) For 2ch Music listening:
I connect the AVR Front (L/R) speakers terminals to the High Pass inputs of the Sub, then the High Outputs of the Sub to the Speakers. That way when select the Pure Direct mode on the AVR its send full range 2ch, then the sub crossover (i set it around 50-60hz) splits it to a 2.1. Also IMHO I get better integration between the sub and the kef´s. and I can use the sub whit Pure Direct mode.
2) For Movies 5.1.2 ch
I connect the AVR LFE output directly to the Sub and then AVR crossover its set around 80hz.

You mean high level/speaker level inputs/outputs on the sub I assume, as I see no indication of a high pass involved using the high level connections.....you can with many avrs duplicate that sort of overlap with a double bass setting, too and even PSB recommends you use the low level inputs....

 

[lbutron]

Still so many hears difference when moving from budget receiver to good amp for 2ch listening and even from more expensive receiver to amp which is not what this thread was about. My issue was the Yamaha which is budget model with Aventage stamp and good speakers like LS50.

At first I was streaming (whit Roon) from Mac via Airplay to the Yamaha AVR , then i connect the Mac via a Schiit Modi DAC < AVR and wow! a got more detail more soundstage, thats when I realize how much diference a DAC could do.
Thats why I got the CA CXN V2 for all the streaming and CD playback, I went A/B testing from Mac<Yamaha vs MAC<CXN V2 (Streamer-DAC) < Yamaha AVR and always I can hear more the detail / Soundstage / Tight Base.

Thats why I´m pushing to wet a good 2ch Amp I think I will hear the difference. Everybody says the best way is to sound demo (An I agree), but whit this COVID situation its hard to do it, so I have to go blind in this one and make the desition based in Reviews and coments frome you guys

 

[Pogre]

Thats why I´m pushing to wet a good 2ch Amp I think I will hear the difference. Everybody says the best way is to sound demo (An I agree), but whit this COVID situation its hard to do it, so I have to go blind in this one and make the desition based in Reviews and coments frome you guys

You probably will "hear" a difference. You seem well primed for placebo and expectation bias. Personally I think you're wasting money as well as adding unnecessary complexity. Even PSB recommend you use the low level inputs if/when you can over the high level inputs... I think you've been buying into some audiophoolery.

I'll bet you a paycheck those differences you think you hear would disappear if you couldn't see which was which in a level matched dbt (thus eliminating your biases), but I digress. I'd look into speakers and room way before chasing better sound through amplification. That's a farce.

At least you're not asking us about cables....

 

[killdozzer]

I´m comparing from my Headphone setup, HifiMan HE-400i + Schiit Modi/Magni + Playing HiFi Tidal/Roon. And is no near close the detail I can get form that setup, I can hear even the footstep from the artist walking into the studio recording.
I being moving around the speakers an I can here the improvement, also i made some room acoustics: Bass traps in the corners, absorber in the 1st reflection and some diffuser in the back wall. Also I put a thick carpet over a tile floor, and a big sofa

Man, that's a big, biiiiig test for any amp. Trust me, giving even 15k for an amp won't bring your listening room experience closer to a pair of outstanding headphones. It is simply not a real expectation.

You set your goal high. I have nothing against that, but you should expect to fall short.

Back on topic, even if this is how you asses amp's performance, choosing 2ch over multi is no assurance you'll get closer to your goal. My guess, and I'd love to see more knowledgeable people join in, is that you're up for a huge amount of room acoustic treatment and REQ and even then you can only get so close.

Here's cold shower if you're up for one; since avrs started selling better, companies started investing more into avrs, also, since they sold, it made sense to build in high quality components, it also made sense to further invest in developing amp sections, eventually the game turned and now when you're buying a 2ch amp from a company that also makes avrs, you're most probably getting a stripped down version of the avr's amp section minus the DSP and the rest.

 

[SanojS]

It's >1 year old but I just saw this post and can share my experience as being a multi-year user of the CXA80 (bought new when it came out).
The amp is great, main difference between 80 and 81 versions is that 81 has Bluetooth included and improved DAC. Since you're using CXN, you are not interested in neither, so it's an easy choice: CXA80!

I'm using the CXA80 with subwoofer KEF Kube 12b and Q350 speakers. I am very happy with it.

Things I wish were better: control of sub LFE crossover. Better DAC.

 

[TLS Guy]

At first I was streaming (whit Roon) from Mac via Airplay to the Yamaha AVR , then i connect the Mac via a Schiit Modi DAC < AVR and wow! a got more detail more soundstage, thats when I realize how much diference a DAC could do.
Thats why I got the CA CXN V2 for all the streaming and CD playback, I went A/B testing from Mac<Yamaha vs MAC<CXN V2 (Streamer-DAC) < Yamaha AVR and always I can hear more the detail / Soundstage / Tight Base.

Thats why I´m pushing to wet a good 2ch Amp I think I will hear the difference. Everybody says the best way is to sound demo (An I agree), but whit this COVID situation its hard to do it, so I have to go blind in this one and make the desition based in Reviews and coments frome you guys

I don't think changing the amp will help you. I have head those speakers at a high end dealer powered by exotic amplification.

For small speakers they are very good. However they still sound like small speakers. There was a slight "brittleness" to the sound. I associate this with a deficiency on the upper bass power response. This happens with small speakers.

The reason is the transition frequency between the half space/full space transition. This is related to the baffle width of the speaker. The smaller the speaker the higher the transition frequency. This requires baffle step compensation. In a passive speaker this is done by dropping the impedance below the transition frequency. However their limits as to how far you can drop the impedance, and small drivers are limited in cone excursion and power handling. So with small speakers like that you can pretty much never get total baffle step compensation, in a passive design.

In your speakers the impedance drops to four ohms at 200 Hz.

Now look at the FR, which for a small speaker is very good.

The red trace is your speakers. The blue the famous small BBC LS3/5A monitors. You can see the response of both are very similar. But in both you can see a slight fall in response below 600 Hz. This is right where you would expect the transition frequency to be in small speakers like that. So the loss in output is about 4db below transition. Now that is small, but in a region where the ear is very sensitive, so it will be audible.

In summary, it is small speakers that are holding you back and not the power amp.

A better sub will help mask it, but a sub does not produce output at the critical frequencies where your problem is occurring. So you solution is bigger speakers and not a different amp. Small speakers always are a compromise. The old adage applies: - "Do speakers have to be large? No but it really helps!"

 

[PENG]

I don't think changing the amp will help you. I have head those speakers at a high end dealer powered by exotic amplification.

For small speakers they are very good. However they still sound like small speakers. There was a slight "brittleness" to the sound. I associate this with a deficiency on the upper bass power response. This happens with small speakers.

The reason is the transition frequency between the half space/full space transition. This is related to the baffle width of the speaker. The smaller the speaker the higher the transition frequency. This requires baffle step compensation. In a passive speaker this is done by dropping the impedance below the transition frequency. However their limits as to how far you can drop the impedance, and small drivers are limited in cone excursion and power handling. So with small speakers like that you can pretty much never get total baffle step compensation, in a passive design.

In your speakers the impedance drops to four ohms at 200 Hz.

Now look at the FR, which for a small speaker is very good.

The red trace is your speakers. The blue the famous small BBC LS3/5A monitors. You can see the response of both are very similar. But in both you can see a slight fall in response below 600 Hz. This is right where you would expect the transition frequency to be in small speakers like that. So the loss in output is about 4db below transition. Now that is small, but in a region where the ear is very sensitive, so it will be audible.

In summary, it is small speakers that are holding you back and not the power amp.

A better sub will help mask it, but a sub does not produce output at the critical frequencies where your problem is occurring. So you solution is bigger speakers and not a different amp. Small speakers always are a compromise. The old adage applies: - "Do speakers have to be large? No but it really helps!"

I know you don't believe in REQ, but I can tell you my LS50 sounds fantastic, especially with EQ on. That is the case with Dirac Live and I am sure it would be similar, if not as good, with Audyssey too.

Right at moment I am listening to them and comparing Dirac on vs off. It is easy to do, and its virtually instantaneous because it is a desktop system so it only take a click on the button to switch from on to off. With REQ on, it sounds more transparent, but not bright, not brittle, bass is punchy and highs are smooth.

The amp is rated only 50 W 8/4 ohms and that's way more than enough for my seat that is only 28 to 30 inches from the speakers.

So bottom line, it depends..

 

[TLS Guy]

I know you don't believe in REQ, but I can tell you my LS50 sounds fantastic, especially with EQ on. That is the case with Dirac Live and I am sure it would be similar, if not as good, with Audyssey too.

Right at moment I am listening to them and comparing Dirac on vs off. It is easy to do, and its virtually instantaneous because it is a desktop system so it only take a click on the button to switch from on to off. With REQ on, it sounds more transparent, but not bright, not brittle, bass is punchy and highs are smooth.

The amp is rated only 50 W 8/4 ohms and that's way more than enough for my seat that is only 28 to 30 inches from the speakers.

So bottom line, it depends..

That is actually a good case for Eq with limits. The problem is that you will double the power to a small driver, in the major power band. You are listening close to the speakers. If you were in a bigger room further way, that probably would not work out so well.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW just saw this on asr and thought of this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cambridge-audio-cxa81-review-integrated-dac-amp.31845/

 

[PENG]

FWIW just saw this on asr and thought of this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cambridge-audio-cxa81-review-integrated-dac-amp.31845/

Great timing! That's yet another example of why people shouldn't buy such integrated amps over a receiver or avr only, or mainly because they think integrated amps will sound better, believing that they they use better parts/circuitry etc. They should buy them for other reasons. At the price level of the CXA81, you would think they might use a better ESS DAC chip than the ES9016? Well at least it is better than the ES9010K2M in Yamaha's A-S801. I know, again, it would not make any audible difference, but at least do it justify the price that audiophiles may be willing to pay.

By the way, I just posted to yet again suggest Amir to not use the narrative that just because of the lower SINAD at higher pre out level, it doesn't mean the pre amp cannot drive high power amps and speakers, unless the pre out actually "clips" at the higher level, such as 2 V. Because of the way he word such a warning, I know for a fact (based on forum posts) that many people ended up with the impression that the Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, NAD and other models he tested cannot output more than 1.2 to 1.4 V.