Anechoic data set for Focal Speakers

[rjharle]

Since Dr. Floyd E. Toole seems to be the last word on sound reproduction, I thought I would get his book to help me with my new room/speaker setup. The first thing that I found out, for a number of reasons, Dr. Toole is not a fan of "Computerized Room Correction" he believes it has no value and doesn't solve the problem of speaker/room relationship. "Just another Corporate Gimmick"

So I'm on the path of bliss with Dr. Toole when I run into my first problem. Getting the anechoic data set for the speakers I purchase. Since they don't come with the speakers, not much information, I decided to write the company.

First Email: "I just bought some Focal speakers, and I'm trying to get the anechoic data set for loudspeaker for the Focal Aria 936 CC900, 906. I need the data, so I can set the speakers up properly. Thank you, and I await your response."
Focal Response: "Unfortunately, we do not have such data available for sharing, Please let me know if I can help with anything else."
Second email: "Without that data, how can the speakers/room be setup?"
Focal Response: "Your Room is not an anechoic chamber, therefore the data is useless, the readings are done during Transducer Design in order to make sure they attain the design spec. When placing in your room, it comes down to personal taste, and if you need that level of detail, the need for a professional reading is recommended for each different location you may place them, because once the readings are done, and the room is treated, you can never move the speakers unless you re-read the room at the new location, and re-treat (diffusers, sound traps, etc.).
Third Email: "According to Dr. Floyd E, Toole's Sound Reproduction 3rd Edition, I will need the anechoic data set for these loudspeakers. The test data you provide is nonexistent, other than specs, with the speaker. In order for me to set up the speaker/room, speaker naturality, will be needed. Thank you and I await your response.

I' waiting for a response. Do I really require the data; haven't gotten that far into the book.

 

[XEagleDriver]

No.
Have you considered getting REW (free) and a mike ($) to take in room measurements.

REW data will tell you about the speaker and room, that will be more useful.

With all due respect to Doc Toole, he wrote more in the theoretical vice practical IMHO. It is not easy to apply his findings to an at-home problem.
Audio is not a hard science; human perception, hearing differences . . .
It is easy to misunderstand or misapply his book, tread carefully.
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[lovinthehd]

Toole also tested an old version of Audyssey and some other programs, it's a bit dated now. Also agree get your own measurement mic and software to measure what's going on in your particular room....

 

[rjharle]

No.
Have you considered getting REW (free) and a mike ($) to take in room measurements.

REW data will tell you about the speaker and room, that will be more useful.

With all due respect to Doc Toole, he wrote more in the theoretical vice practical IMHO. It is not easy to apply his findings to an at-home problem.
Audio is not a hard science; human perception, hearing differences . . .
It is easy to misunderstand or misapply his book, tread carefully.
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I'm not expecting I could follow all of Dr. Toole's advice on loudspeakers and rooms. I would just like to get off to a good start. Since his book states, "Steady-state room curves are important data but not complete data. It has been shown that with comprehensive anarchic data on the loudspeakers and with very basic knowledge of the acoustics of the playback venue, fundamental aspects of room curves can be predicted in many normal listening venues. The reverse is not true. Once the multidirectional sound from a loudspeaker has been launched into a three-dimensional somewhat reflective space, we have lost the ability to thoroughly interrogate the sound source"

I take this to mean if you are starting with known data, the rest can not be figured out. Shouldn't I want to get off to a known start and apply REW and ARC later?

 

[Pogre]

Yup. Get a mic and measure what's going on in your room. They're right in that the anechoic data you requested won't be of much use to you for what you want to do. A Umik mic and REW can really go a long ways in helping you diagnose your room and guide you where to go.

 

[Pogre]

I take this to mean if you are starting with known data, the rest can not be figured out. Shouldn't I want to get off to a known start and apply REW and ARC later?

You aren't applying anything with REW. It's a free program you use with a calibrated mic so you can do detailed measurements of your in room frequency response. You can see exactly what's going on with pretty good detail.

 

[lovinthehd]

You aren't applying anything with REW. It's a free program you use with a calibrated mic so you can do detailed measurements of your in room frequency response. You can see exactly what's going on with pretty good detail.

Altho with some gear you can implement an REW-suggested eq curve.....

 

[Pogre]

Altho with some gear you can implement an REW-suggested eq curve.....

Yes, that too. I wasn't going there tho. Yet. Lol.

 

[rjharle]

Yup. Get a mic and measure what's going on in your room. They're right in that the anechoic data you requested won't be of much use to you for what you want to do. A Umik mic and REW can really go a long ways in helping you diagnose your room and guide you where to go.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.
Dr. Toole says I need the anarchic data to help with the room, computer software is "useless" and his book is written for the layman.

You say chuck it all and go with REW? (computer software}

 

[lovinthehd]

Anarchic data sounds dangerous

 

[lovinthehd]

You could get your own measurement software like Dayton's DATS system.

ps But an anechoic room to measure in, that's hard.

 

[ryanosaur]

 

[ryanosaur]

@rjharle
You are being too literal, here.
Books like Toole's and the Master Handbook of Acoustics are great resources and very educational. There is still a practical knowledge that you need to work through.
Neither of those books will give you a foolproof recipe for audio bliss.
Teach you about Acoustics, how your ear-brain processes sound, how to understand and maybe even anticipate Speaker-Room interaction... Yes.

 

[ryanosaur]

You could get your own measurement software like Dayton's DATS system.

ps But an anechoic room to measure in, that's hard.

I don't know that DATS will give the information he seeks... not as an anechoic equivalent.

I do support, however, that if OP is really interested in deep diving into his room setup, REW and a UMik-1is the most efficacious manner.
That said, OP could pursue the OmniMic/DATS package, but REW will be less expensive to play with, only requiring the purchase of a Calibrated Measurement Mic.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't know that DATS will give the information he seeks... not as an anechoic equivalent.

I do support, however, that if OP is really interested in deep diving into his room setup, REW and a UMik-1is the most efficacious manner.
That said, OP could pursue the OmniMic/DATS package, but REW will be less expensive to play with, only requiring the purchase of a Calibrated Measurement Mic.

Maybe if he does like shadyJ does to an extent. DATS is more about speaker parameter measurement than REW last I looked, but haven't been keeping up?

 

[ryanosaur]

Maybe if he does like shadyJ does to an extent. DATS is more about speaker parameter measurement than REW last I looked, but haven't been keeping up?

It does give some data about the Speaker... been awhile since I've hooked mine up like that. Unfortunately, the only way to get an anechoic measurement short of a true anechoic chamber is to do quasi-anechoic measurements... as Shady does. Or send them off to Erin to Klippel-ize.
Either will be a PITA!

 

[rjharle]

@rjharle
You are being too literal, here.
Books like Toole's and the Master Handbook of Acoustics are great resources and very educational. There is still practical knowledge that you need to work through.
Neither of those books will give you a foolproof recipe for audio bliss.
Teach you about Acoustics, how your ear-brain processes sound, how to understand and maybe even anticipate Speaker-Room interaction... Yes.

I have read much on psychoacoustics, from the Doppler effect to why sounds are different in a shower and a ballpark (ambient effects), why you think you hear it when it isn't there, and why it sounds different with your eyes closed. I thought Toole's book would give me a working understand on how this speaker/room relationship works and what I can do about it. Do you think Toole uses REW for his home system?

 

[lovinthehd]

Might read some of Floyd's comments like here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/can-loudspeakers-accurately-reproduce-the-sound-of-real-instruments-and-do-you-care.7422/page-8#post-174735

 

[Swerd]

@rjharle I've got a few things to say.

• Anechoic chamber measurements of speakers are the best way to compare the sound qualities of different speakers. This method essentially removes reflected sound from walls, floor and ceiling, and lets us see what sound qualities come directly from the speaker. Anechoic chamber measurements cannot tell us anything about how speakers might sound in our room, or any room.
  
  
• REW can be a useful tool for partially correcting the unwanted acoustic effects caused by room reflections, from walls, floor and ceiling. However, REW can also easily be misused to incorrectly alter a speaker's sound.
  
  
• REW is not a good tool to measure the frequency responses of only your speakers. It will measure the frequency responses of your speakers in combination with your room. Don't confuse the two – they are not the same.
  
  
• Finally, Google is your friend. Use it. You can find professionally done anechoic chamber measurements of your Focal speakers at SoundStage! Network Loudspeaker Measurements. They were all done by Canada's National Research Council (NRC), and are the state of the art. This facility was developed and put into use by Floyd Toole when he directed the NRC. They have already done measurements of several Focal speakers:
  Focal Aria K2 936 speakers
  Focal Aria K2 906 speakers
  
  
• Another audio forum, Audio Science Review, has done a full set of simulated anechoic measurements of the Focal 906 speakers.
  
  

  Focal Aria 906 Speaker Review

  This is a review and detailed measurements of the Focal Aria 906 Bookshelf/stand-mount speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. I think it costs US $2000 for a pair but I see it on Amazon including Prime shipping for half that at US $999. Better yet, they have a...

  www.audiosciencereview.com

They look like they're very good speakers. Have fun reading all about them.

 

[rjharle]

Might read some of Floyd's comments like here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/can-loudspeakers-accurately-reproduce-the-sound-of-real-instruments-and-do-you-care.7422/page-8#post-174735

Just read it. I'm not a fool seeking reproductive audio perfection. I understand what Toole is saying, I would rather have enough working knowledge to know when it's time to sit down and be happy with what I have. Furthermore, I'm not interested in rearranging the furniture and acoustical panels, every time I hear something I don't agree with.