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SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
I have sympathy for young Russian conscripts who didn't ask to be sent into Ukraine.
Agreed...And the typical Russian on the street who did not ask for this. But it's a totalitarian gov't so they have no say until they get the pitchforks out.
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
Reagan was not in office when Iraq rolled the tanks in against Iran. It was Sept of 1980. If you want to blame a US president than blame Carter who Iran was humiliating day after day with the hostage situation.
What year were you born?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
This should hurt Russia a little more.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/#link-6QGWWOJRRBD4JDGCO5L3H2KJ7M

>>>
PARIS — Switzerland on Monday announced that it will join the European Union in sanctioning Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, filling a key gap in Western resolve against the Kremlin following widespread criticism of the Swiss government.

The Swiss had for days held off on following the E.U. and the United States, citing the nation’s long-standing role as a neutral and diplomacy-focused country that has often acted as a mediator in conflicts.

Switzerland’s government now says it will implement the measures already agreed on by the European Union last Wednesday and Friday. As a result, Swiss authorities will take action against the same entities that are being targeted by its European neighbors.
...
<<<
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The idea of a Pax America, or Britannica died when the US chose poorly after the Cold War ended. The key moment to integrate Russia was right after the Budapest agreement which denuclearized the Ukraine. Former Clinton Defense Secretary wrote a interesting book about those decisions called My Journey at the Nuclear Brink. He argued, the US was working closely with Yeltsin on dismantling nuclear weapons together. Both our militaries were working to ratchet down tension from fall of the Soviet Union and that these gains were then squandered more as a result of US than Russian actions. His words from a 2016 Guardian event.
William Perry has an admirable record from his days in the Defense Dept. He was active during the Carter and Clinton administrations. As such, his book must be regarded as memoirs from someone who was directly involved in a major event. He might be right, and he just might have an axe to grind. At best, such books can provide insight as to what he and others were thinking at the time. His book should not be considered as a definitive analysis of that time.

History is said to be written in at least three stages. The first stage is news reporting, written as events happen. The main concern is to record the known events as they occur, or as soon as possible. Little or no analysis is done.

The second stage consists of memoirs written years later by people who were principle actors at the time. Such as William Perry's book. Sometimes – but not always – these memoir writers try to rewrite history to defend their own failed actions. These have become known as 'Revisionist History'. I can think of several examples, long debunked, where authors looked to blame the attack on Pearl Harbor on US president Franklin Roosevelt. Another example was the book claiming that the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not used to end the war, but to intimidate the USSR. These books were controversial at the time of publication, but were rather quickly forgotten because little or no evidence ever appeared to support their ideas. I can't think of any more recent examples. I never read Tricky Dicky's book, mainly because I thought he also had reason to write Revisionist History.

The third stage of history usually doesn't get written until major political or military actors are gone. It's done by younger historians who weren't alive during the events. And more importantly, they don't have an axe to grind. They become the first serious analyses of a period in history. The first 3rd stage histories of WW2 didn't appear until the 1980s. Many wartime secrets had to be declassified before the 3rd stage could begin. For example, declassified accounts showed how intercepted and decrypted Japanese Army and Navy communications were critical to many Allied victories. Prior to that revelation, Douglas MacArthur (or his wartime staff) claimed that his genius alone was responsible for defeating Japan. It took many years before the true extent of US, Australian, and British intelligence was revealed.

The definitive analyses of the immediate decade after the collapse of the USSR have not yet been written. The same is true for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They will almost certainly be written in the future by historians without a political reason to defend their actions.

As far as the Russian invasion of Ukraine goes, we're still in the early days of stage one.
 
Last edited:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This should hurt Russia a little more.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/#link-6QGWWOJRRBD4JDGCO5L3H2KJ7M

>>>
PARIS — Switzerland on Monday announced that it will join the European Union in sanctioning Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, filling a key gap in Western resolve against the Kremlin following widespread criticism of the Swiss government.

The Swiss had for days held off on following the E.U. and the United States, citing the nation’s long-standing role as a neutral and diplomacy-focused country that has often acted as a mediator in conflicts.

Switzerland’s government now says it will implement the measures already agreed on by the European Union last Wednesday and Friday. As a result, Swiss authorities will take action against the same entities that are being targeted by its European neighbors.
Will the Swiss banks also stop hiding the huge amounts of money that gangsters and oligarchs, such as Putin, have hidden in their numbered accounts?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
As far as I know it happened yesterday.....

A team of parachute troopers were release over a Ukrainian forest, but the truth was, there was no forest there at all, the maps the russians had were incorrect so there were no places to hide. They were an easy catch for the Ukrainian soldiers so they were all captured.
If this is accurate and is the case, I can only conclude they the planners don't know how to use internet search and GPS localization.
But I am encouraging them to continue and end this soon, less tragedy all around.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, russian economy is being shattered as we speak... as far as I understand, a lot of Boeing and Airbus planes is being grounded now due to the sanctions... so the russian aviation system may come to a grinding halt
I imagine this is in Russia that are in their airline fleet.

What is also needed is to stop all landing rights throughout the world, probably not in those diehard supporting countries. Although even that can be remedied by closing the airspace if they are not bordered with Russia.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Will the Swiss banks also stop hiding the huge amounts of money that gangsters and oligarchs, such as Putin, have hidden in their numbered accounts?
could very well be, I saw a statement that Switzerland imposes the same sanctions as EU
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Iraq invaded Iran, and the Persian Empire fell a very long time ago.

So, for centuries Iran has not invaded a neighboring country.
Some have long memories, others don't. :D
What's a century or two between friends? ;)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Will the Swiss banks also stop hiding the huge amounts of money that gangsters and oligarchs, such as Putin, have hidden in their numbered accounts?
One could hope, but not that likely, IMO. The same goes for the various other "tax paradises" used to hide money.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
If only members of the Russian military would decide to go against his wishes......
Needs to be a very large number with their leaders to stand up to the diehards supporting Putler.
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
William Perry has an admirable record from his days in the Defense Dept. He was active during the Carter and Clinton administrations. As such, his book must be regarded as memoirs from someone who was directly involved in a major event. He might be right, and he just might have an axe to grind. At best, such books can provide insight as to what he and others were thinking at the time. His book should not be considered as a definitive analysis of that time.

History is said to be written in at least three stages. The first stage is news reporting, written as events happen. The main concern is to record the known events as they occur, or as soon as possible. Little or no analysis is done.

The second stage consists of memoirs written years later by people who were principle actors at the time. Such as William Perry's book. Sometimes – but not always – these memoir writers try to rewrite history to defend their own failed actions. These have become known as 'Revisionist History'. I can think of several examples, long debunked, where authors looked to blame the attack on Pearl Harbor on US president Franklin Roosevelt. Another example was the book claiming that the atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not used to end the war, but to intimidate the USSR. These books were controversial at the time of publication, but were rather quickly forgotten because little or no evidence ever appeared to support their ideas. I can't think of any more recent examples. I never read Tricky Dicky's book, mainly because I thought he also had reason to write Revisionist History.

The third stage of history usually doesn't get written until major political or military actors are gone. It's done by younger historians who weren't alive during the events. And more importantly, they don't have an axe to grind. They become the first serious analyses of a period in history. The first 3rd stage histories of WW2 didn't appear until the 1980s. Many wartime secrets had to be declassified before the 3rd stage could begin. For example, declassified accounts showed how intercepted and decrypted Japanese Army and Navy communications were critical to many Allied victories. Prior to that revelation, Douglas MacArthur (or his wartime staff) claimed that his genius alone was responsible for defeating Japan. It took many years before the true extent of US, Australian, and British intelligence was revealed.

The definitive analyses of the immediate decade after the collapse of the USSR have not yet been written. The same is true for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They will almost certainly be written in the future by historians without a political reason to defend their actions.

As far as the Russian invasion of Ukraine goes, we're still in the early days of stage one.
Totally agree with your point about history. I would add that we would move through the stages faster if the media would practice proper investigative journalism and not shill for any side or ideology. Also, if the gov't would allow access to files sooner (within reason) to let the historians do their work. I am still waiting on the JFK files to be released?

By the way, another excellent book that shares Perry's account of events was written by William Burns. He's an expert on Russia, speaks Russian and was there. Burns was a counselor for political affairs at the US embassy in Moscow in 1995. He has had a most admirable career in service the the US. I don't think he has an axe to grind but history will tell.

One of the many passages relative to today's situation is the following:

"In 2008, Bush was pushing to open NATO to Ukraine, Burns’ warnings regarding a Russian reaction loomed large. Burns told Condi Rice that it would be “hard to overstate the strategic consequences” of offering NATO membership to Ukraine and predicted that “it will create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.”

Very prescient guy. I'm glad he's running the CIA right now.

,
 
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