Where does my money go when i buy a high end speaker

A

ARZEEN

Audiophyte
So here is a reflection about loudspeakers, it would be helpful if some of you have thought about it or if this idea has come across your mind,
I have been an audio distributor importer of major brands and i have been dealing with speakers and components directly with the manufactures (specially high end european manufacturers, from denmark, italy, germany etc ) manufacturers who fabricate state of the art high end speakers, drivers, midranges, tweeters, long and short throw subwoofers , crossovers) wich are high end products hand made in germany, italy, and northem european countries.
When i see a set of speakers that retail for 10K-12K or even 15K, i have had some them in hand and seen the drivers it mounts, the total amount for the drivers equals to about 25% of the speaker price. I beleive enguineering and manufacturing of a high end wooden box costs lot of money, but does it justify that the 80% of the money i pay goes for engeenering and wooden box and designing? conectors etc?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I can only speculate based on conversations, and it will vary significantly by total sales...

Compare a Salk SS9.5 which is using good quality high-end drivers and a competent yet traditional design in a hand built cabinet vs. the engineering and technology that had to go into something like the Perlisten Towers or the Dutch&Dutch standmounts.
Jim can have his people turn out Speakers and you are really just paying for labor in the US, parts, and a hopefully comfortable margin for him to keep operating.
But the companies that are putting cutting edge technology forward in crreating unique beam forming designs, etc, that have both a somewhat limited distribution potential and high R&D while also needing to have a very high end Fit&Finish score... that will add up. Perhaps other aspects such as premium internal components may be used in some cases (likely in the new PS Audio speaker), but some boutique designers I've talked to don't do anything special unless asked because they know it doesn't do anything for the final product.

How much of Sonus Faber is in the finish vs components?
How much does it cost B&W to make their spherical and pointy parts?

It would be interesting to have an idea of how much investment it took to get something like the Perlistens up and running. We will likely never know. ;)

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this from people in the industry!
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not too sure about the profit margins nowadays. But 25 years years ago, a loudspeaker manufacturer would list the price of a product at 500% of its manufacturing costs.
Let's say a loudspeaker costs $1000 to build. The manufacturer lists it at $5000 and sells it to the retailer at $3000. However, I am pretty sure that manufacturers putting out very expensive stuff may have more profit margin percentages. Some even cut corners in passive crossover components, one example being the use of electrolytic caps instead of the more reliable polypropylene type.

I remember that McIntosh used to market their own loudspeaker brand in the late 1960's. They had released bookshelf enclosures retailing at CA$1200 each then. Well, the speaker units were really cheap drivers as the main building expense went to the furniture and finish.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This means when buying ANYTHING for most of us, we have to look at the overall picture. Choose wisely. :D
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
When I see a set of speakers that retail for 10K-12K or even 15K ,
Are we talking entry level, mid range, high end or ultra high end. It really comes down to what you won't, what you think you need, and lastly what you can afford. It also has to compare with the rest of your system. Your hardly going to spend 150k on amplification, and then spend 2k on speakers. Factory production numbers also play a major part in the end product. Most manufacturers, of low end designs now build in China, And the products are churned out by the hundred every day..
Prices range between 1k and up to 5k Some being considered entry level.

When we get into high end and ultra high end, production numbers drop dramatically, and buying cost rise considerably. But while there are buyers waiting for delivery, there are manufacturers producing the product. And there are always buyers prepared to pay. Without going into brand names, some ultra high end speakers go into very high money. As someone suggested on another forum, "Do you want a couple of Porsche 911's or a pair of speakers"

But it's the same with every thing 45k for a Rolex, or 2.5 million for a Bugatti Veyron super sports. There was a program on the media the other week about the ultra rich in Dubai. One woman spent 200k on hand bags.
]
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So here is a reflection about loudspeakers, it would be helpful if some of you have thought about it or if this idea has come across your mind,
I have been an audio distributor importer of major brands and i have been dealing with speakers and components directly with the manufactures (specially high end european manufacturers, from denmark, italy, germany etc ) manufacturers who fabricate state of the art high end speakers, drivers, midranges, tweeters, long and short throw subwoofers , crossovers) wich are high end products hand made in germany, italy, and northem european countries.
When i see a set of speakers that retail for 10K-12K or even 15K, i have had some them in hand and seen the drivers it mounts, the total amount for the drivers equals to about 25% of the speaker price. I beleive enguineering and manufacturing of a high end wooden box costs lot of money, but does it justify that the 80% of the money i pay goes for engeenering and wooden box and designing? conectors etc?
The costs are high. You have R & D which varies, but is high. Then you have to design the drivers, have prototypes custom made and test them. Then there is testing for quality consistency.

Crossover design and fabrication is expensive, especially if you want to avoid electrolytic caps.

Speakers are generally made of wood with finish to a high standard. This is very expensive. Then you have marketing and distribution expense, and shipping. Speakers are very heavy and shipping costs significant. Then the manufacturer, the importer, and the dealer all have to make a profit. Markups are usually in the 40% or higher for limited low volume luxury sales items.

At the end of the day, it is actually hard to make a profit from exotic speakers.

To give you an example, I designed and built my front three speakers is 2005/2006. There has been inflation since then. So the R & D costs, the components components and build cost me 14K. Drivers were sourced from SEAS. They are complex TLs so I had to have assistance from professional cabinet shop.

I did do an analysis of what it would cost to produce the designs commercially, out of interest. Purchase cost of the front three which were designed to be synergistic, would have a price tag of around 100K retail. So only really practical as a DIY project.
 
D

D Murphy

Full Audioholic
The costs are high. You have R & D which varies, but is high. Then you have to design the drivers, have prototypes custom made and test them. Then there is testing for quality consistency.

Crossover design and fabrication is expensive, especially if you want to avoid electrolytic caps.

Speakers are generally made of wood with finish to a high standard. This is very expensive. Then you have marketing and distribution expense, and shipping. Speakers are very heavy and shipping costs significant. Then the manufacturer, the importer, and the dealer all have to make a profit. Markups are usually in the 40% or higher for limited low volume luxury sales items.

At the end of the day, it is actually hard to make a profit from exotic speakers.

To give you an example, I designed and built my front three speakers is 2005/2006. There has been inflation since then. So the R & D costs, the components components and build cost me 14K. Drivers were sourced from SEAS. They are complex TLs so I had to have assistance from professional cabinet shop.

I did do an analysis of what it would cost to produce the designs commercially, out of interest. Purchase cost of the front three which were designed to be synergistic, would have a price tag of around 100K retail. So only really practical as a DIY project.
Mostly agree, except that crossover fabrication costs really aren't that high relatively speaking for high end speakers, even with all poly caps. I source my crossovers from the same company that supplies Revel, and I use the same quality parts (or slightly better in the tweeter circuit), and the cost is very reasonable. Now, if you want to use a complex crossover in a popularly priced speaker, then the parts cost becomes more of a factor.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
[QUOTE="mono-bloc, post: 1537011, member: 97870"


Are we talking entry level, mid range, high end or ultra high end. It really comes down to what you won't, what you think you need, and lastly what you can afford. It also has to compare with the rest of your system. Your hardly going to spend 150k on amplification, and then spend 2k on speakers. Factory production numbers also play a major part in the end product. Most manufacturers, of low end designs now build in China, And the products are churned out by the hundred every day..
Prices range between 1k and up to 5k Some being considered entry level.

When we get into high end and ultra high end, production numbers drop dramatically, and buying cost rise considerably. But while there are buyers waiting for delivery, there are manufacturers producing the product. And there are always buyers prepared to pay. Without going into brand names, some ultra high end speakers go into very high money. As someone suggested on another forum, "Do you want a couple of Porsche 911's or a pair of speakers"

But it's the same with every thing 45k for a Rolex, or 2.5 million for a Bugatti Veyron super sports. There was a program on the media the other week about the ultra rich in Dubai. One woman spent 200k on hand bags.
]

There is a big difference between High End Performance vs. High End Price

Just b/c something is pricey doesn't guarantee the performance, and just because something is high performance doesn't mean it must cost a lot of $.

i.e. Cost and Value are NOT the same concept[/QUOTE]
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
[QUOTE="mono-bloc, post: 1537011, member: 97870"


Are we talking entry level, mid range, high end or ultra high end. It really comes down to what you won't, what you think you need, and lastly what you can afford. It also has to compare with the rest of your system. Your hardly going to spend 150k on amplification, and then spend 2k on speakers. Factory production numbers also play a major part in the end product. Most manufacturers, of low end designs now build in China, And the products are churned out by the hundred every day..
Prices range between 1k and up to 5k Some being considered entry level.

When we get into high end and ultra high end, production numbers drop dramatically, and buying cost rise considerably. But while there are buyers waiting for delivery, there are manufacturers producing the product. And there are always buyers prepared to pay. Without going into brand names, some ultra high end speakers go into very high money. As someone suggested on another forum, "Do you want a couple of Porsche 911's or a pair of speakers"

But it's the same with every thing 45k for a Rolex, or 2.5 million for a Bugatti Veyron super sports. There was a program on the media the other week about the ultra rich in Dubai. One woman spent 200k on hand bags.
]

There is a big difference between High End Performance vs. High End Price

Just b/c something is pricey doesn't guarantee the performance, and just because something is high performance doesn't mean it must cost a lot of $.

i.e. Cost and Value are NOT the same concept
[/QUOTE]

You have that right. I think probably at least 50% and may be more of high priced exotic speakers are actually not very good. Some exotics are among the worst I have ever heard.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Mostly agree, except that crossover fabrication costs really aren't that high relatively speaking for high end speakers, even with all poly caps. I source my crossovers from the same company that supplies Revel, and I use the same quality parts (or slightly better in the tweeter circuit), and the cost is very reasonable. Now, if you want to use a complex crossover in a popularly priced speaker, then the parts cost becomes more of a factor.
I agree, but the crossover still has to enter into the cost. But you still see pictures of crossovers with caps and inductors I would never use in my builds. So most manufacturers are counting pennies here. Some crossovers can cost a lot to build. The crossovers in the three way speakers I built as a tribute to Raymond Cooke, following his impedance compensating designs had a high part count and the components cost around $250. Each speaker contains three crossover boards.

 
McC

McC

Audioholic Intern
What now seems like forever ago I owned a small and insignificant loudspeaker company. I loved what I did and the people I did it for. What I hated (and sucked at) was the business of the business. Let me explain.

Many people, such as myself, start businesses to support something we're passionate about. That is also a significant reason why most of us fail. We love what we do and don't treat it as a for-profit business. I had spent some 25-years learning my craft and another 11-years doing it professionally. However, I had no business acumen and it had no choice but to show. And it did. Business struggles, personal struggles, and an inability to properly manage those stresses contributed to several bad decisions that not only hurt the business but my reputation within the audio circles I traveled in at the time. Eventually, I closed the business, not because it wasn't viable but because I had nothing left to give it. I had taken on no debt, owed no money, and fulfilled every order. I left with my hands clean. Many others don't.

One of the early lessons I learned was what the relationship with dealers was actually like. They made it clear that if I wanted product placement I would have to give them at least 50% of retail. More of course is better. The more they make on a product, the more incentive there is to sell the product. The next thing is, they don't buy display samples and they don't stock inventory. I was expected to provide the demo product and stock my own inventory. Shipping, either to the store or to the customer was also my responsibility. One must have a place to hold such inventory which adds cost, and one also is taxed on the value of that inventory every year. The cost of placing a product in stores is born by the manufacturer and not insignificant.

But that's not all. The manufacturer is solely responsible for generating interest in their product. Marketing includes creating a perception of your products in the marketplace. Reviews are certainly part of that, and review samples, shipping, etc. are also paid by the manufacturer. Reviews are great, but they seldom translate directly into sales. You have to advertise. Customers need to be familiar with your name to seriously consider buying your product, regardless of a great review. Sure, there are a few who are willing to risk purchasing obscure products from little-known companies but not enough to offset the cost of generating those sales. Flyers, hand-outs, brochures, catalogs, all must be developed, printed, mailed, shipped, etc. to prospective buyers. Trade shows aren't cheap either but can be an important part of gaining exposure both in the industry as well as with the consumer. You have to generate interest and recognition, interest, and build a perception for your company and products, and that's not cheap. Oh, just because there's not as much demand for glossy product hand-outs as there once was doesn't mean those costs are gone. They shifted to being largely online. You still have to have product beauty pictures taken and ad copy developed. You might want a website built and unless you're a web developer you'll have to pay for that too.

Internally you will need a place to work, lights, heat, etc. Are you answering the phone? Are you the marketing manager? Do you answer emails? How about final assembly, packaging, and shipping? You will need help, and people don't work for free.

Let's say you begin to get a little traction and there are a few sales that start coming in. Unless you're independently wealthy and already have sufficient production and storage capacity you will likely need to find money to grow your lemon-aid stand. This is often where passion and business clash. Investors don't love you, your company, or your passion for what you do. What they love is the return on their investment. You may have started this to make the very best product you are able to and share it with the world, but this is business and it's about money. The pressure to decrease costs and increase profit is unrelenting. Labor is a major cost in manufacturing. Loudspeakers are labor-intensive at every step. Thus the pressure to move production overseas where costs are lower. Still, it must be profitable to do that which requires a certain volume. This brings us to the economics of scale.

In short, small volume production is always more expensive per unit than large scale. Buying 100 drivers at a time costs more per unit than buying 1,000, 5,000, or 10,000. That applies to everything required along the way to generate and fulfill every sale you make. I won't mention whatever personal financial risk you may have in your venture, but I will mention those who rely on you and your decisions to provide them the means to feed their families.

My apologies for being so long-winded.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What now seems like forever ago I owned a small and insignificant loudspeaker company. I loved what I did and the people I did it for. What I hated (and sucked at) was the business of the business. Let me explain.

Many people, such as myself, start businesses to support something we're passionate about. That is also a significant reason why most of us fail. We love what we do and don't treat it as a for-profit business. I had spent some 25-years learning my craft and another 11-years doing it professionally. However, I had no business acumen and it had no choice but to show. And it did. Business struggles, personal struggles, and an inability to properly manage those stresses contributed to several bad decisions that not only hurt the business but my reputation within the audio circles I traveled in at the time. Eventually, I closed the business, not because it wasn't viable but because I had nothing left to give it. I had taken on no debt, owed no money, and fulfilled every order. I left with my hands clean. Many others don't.

One of the early lessons I learned was what the relationship with dealers was actually like. They made it clear that if I wanted product placement I would have to give them at least 50% of retail. More of course is better. The more they make on a product, the more incentive there is to sell the product. The next thing is, they don't buy display samples and they don't stock inventory. I was expected to provide the demo product and stock my own inventory. Shipping, either to the store or to the customer was also my responsibility. One must have a place to hold such inventory which adds cost, and one also is taxed on the value of that inventory every year. The cost of placing a product in stores is born by the manufacturer and not insignificant.

But that's not all. The manufacturer is solely responsible for generating interest in their product. Marketing includes creating a perception of your products in the marketplace. Reviews are certainly part of that, and review samples, shipping, etc. are also paid by the manufacturer. Reviews are great, but they seldom translate directly into sales. You have to advertise. Customers need to be familiar with your name to seriously consider buying your product, regardless of a great review. Sure, there are a few who are willing to risk purchasing obscure products from little-known companies but not enough to offset the cost of generating those sales. Flyers, hand-outs, brochures, catalogs, all must be developed, printed, mailed, shipped, etc. to prospective buyers. Trade shows aren't cheap either but can be an important part of gaining exposure both in the industry as well as with the consumer. You have to generate interest and recognition, interest, and build a perception for your company and products, and that's not cheap. Oh, just because there's not as much demand for glossy product hand-outs as there once was doesn't mean those costs are gone. They shifted to being largely online. You still have to have product beauty pictures taken and ad copy developed. You might want a website built and unless you're a web developer you'll have to pay for that too.

Internally you will need a place to work, lights, heat, etc. Are you answering the phone? Are you the marketing manager? Do you answer emails? How about final assembly, packaging, and shipping? You will need help, and people don't work for free.

Let's say you begin to get a little traction and there are a few sales that start coming in. Unless you're independently wealthy and already have sufficient production and storage capacity you will likely need to find money to grow your lemon-aid stand. This is often where passion and business clash. Investors don't love you, your company, or your passion for what you do. What they love is the return on their investment. You may have started this to make the very best product you are able to and share it with the world, but this is business and it's about money. The pressure to decrease costs and increase profit is unrelenting. Labor is a major cost in manufacturing. Loudspeakers are labor-intensive at every step. Thus the pressure to move production overseas where costs are lower. Still, it must be profitable to do that which requires a certain volume. This brings us to the economics of scale.

In short, small volume production is always more expensive per unit than large scale. Buying 100 drivers at a time costs more per unit than buying 1,000, 5,000, or 10,000. That applies to everything required along the way to generate and fulfill every sale you make. I won't mention whatever personal financial risk you may have in your venture, but I will mention those who rely on you and your decisions to provide them the means to feed their families.

My apologies for being so long-winded.
That is just the way it is. It is also another very good reason to learn to design an build your own speakers. That is the reason skilled DIYers really do enjoy better speakers than most. Those are all of the reasons I don't own any brand name speakers, never have, and never will.

There are many members on this forum that should have been building their own speakers a long time ago, and could be enjoying the fruits of their labors.

That post was beautifully written and to the point. I agree with every word.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
That is just the way it is. It is also another very good reason to learn to design an build your own speakers. That is the reason skilled DIYers really do enjoy better speakers than most. Those are all of the reasons I don't own any brand name speakers, never have, and never will.

There are many members on this forum that should have been building their own speakers a long time ago, and could be enjoying the fruits of their labors.

That post was beautifully written and to the point. I agree with every word.
I agree with you that DIY is the way to go but work is so intense I just don't have the time to do that realistically I'm thinking until I retire
 
cerwinmad

cerwinmad

Full Audioholic
I spend enough time in this hobby listening, tweaking , and enjoying my speakers / home theater set up. I have the skills and means to diy, hell I program and run a CNC mill and could easily make baffles etc out of aluminum for near zero cost from leftover materials at work. But I value my time more , I'll happily pay a premium and use the time for other Hobby's like Astronomy , hiking, swimming, the gym. I can understand why many don't go the diy route . Plus I'm not sure i could make speakers that outperform the diamond 9.5 /9.1 set I got for $200! The used market is always worth your time.
 
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