Linear Power Supply with audio-grade Caps is any better than similar high-quality caps?

D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
I had a big online fight with this guy making so-called “hi-end” linear power supply.
I said the capacitors he’s using in his LPS should not provide better DC output than the same parameter capacitors!
I challenged him to show the oscilioscope of his LPS DC output measurement but he tried to avoid.
I don’t see the neccesity to use audio-grade capacitors in the LPS.
Additionally, this guy and some of his friends argued that LPS is essential and should improve SQ when using to power ethernet switch, and DC-powered equipments in the chain of audio system.
Does anyone here has experience and knowleage to prove me wrong!?
 

Attachments

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
They're not in the audio path- ask him how they would matter.
 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
They're not in the audio path- ask him how they would matter.
They usually tell the same story after using LPS like
- Noise reduction, complete black background
- Wider soundstage
- Tighter bass
- Less harshing treble
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
They usually tell the same story after using LPS like
- Noise reduction, complete black background
- Wider soundstage
- Tighter bass
- Less harshing treble
I know and I'm sick of seeing dirtbags like them hawk their crap to naiive victims who don't bother to learn enough to be able to question the validity. Those caps are always parallel to the power 'rails' and they act to remove AC ripple after the rectification, plus add some stiffening to the voltage. That is all.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I know and I'm sick of seeing dirtbags like them hawk their crap to naiive victims who don't bother to learn enough to be able to question the validity. Those caps are always parallel to the power 'rails' and they act to remove AC ripple after the rectification, plus add some stiffening to the voltage. That is all.
yep and the same group insist on 'audiophile' fuses as well !
 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
I know and I'm sick of seeing dirtbags like them hawk their crap to naiive victims who don't bother to learn enough to be able to question the validity. Those caps are always parallel to the power 'rails' and they act to remove AC ripple after the rectification, plus add some stiffening to the voltage. That is all.
Is there any chance that you have measurements to show no differences between so-called audiophile or audio-grade LPS vs high-quality LPS!?
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Is this your thread on ASR?

 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
Is this your thread on ASR?

Yes! It’s mine! I’m looking for better answer with measurements and such!
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
A reasonably priced electrolytic capacitor from a reliable brand is all that is required in a power supply.

As for the audio path, a reasonably priced polypropylene cap from a reliable manufacturer is all that is required. More expensive stuff is audiophoolry just like expensive cables and does not provide any better SQ, but more profit for the dishonest manufacturers and dealers.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The thing is that you will need to either do it yourself, or perhaps pay a person with the right equipment. Maybe you could work something out with Amir and send him things to test... but he would need a reason to make it a priority in his schedule. He's already indicated that he's measured stuff like this before and seen no evidence of a beneficial change as your acquaintances seem to be claiming.

Anybody involved in learning Speaker design is faced with the question of XO components. It is no different in many ways than the age-old cable BS. I used Audyn Q4s as my caps. The guy that designed my speakers likes them: they aren't expensive; they work well. But why not some $100 Mundorf Silver-Gold Oil cap?
Why? Because it does nothing! Certainly sounds impressive, but the clue something is wrong is that the people making the claims don't show us the science.

Thus, you are chasing the science. Rather you should tell your friends they are full of it and move on with life. ;) I mean, were you seriously questioning the quality of your ears or just joking? :)

Move on and enjoy some music or a good movie!
 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
The thing is that you will need to either do it yourself, or perhaps pay a person with the right equipment. Maybe you could work something out with Amir and send him things to test... but he would need a reason to make it a priority in his schedule. He's already indicated that he's measured stuff like this before and seen no evidence of a beneficial change as your acquaintances seem to be claiming.

Anybody involved in learning Speaker design is faced with the question of XO components. It is no different in many ways than the age-old cable BS. I used Audyn Q4s as my caps. The guy that designed my speakers likes them: they aren't expensive; they work well. But why not some $100 Mundorf Silver-Gold Oil cap?
Why? Because it does nothing! Certainly sounds impressive, but the clue something is wrong is that the people making the claims don't show us the science.

Thus, you are chasing the science. Rather you should tell your friends they are full of it and move on with life. ;) I mean, were you seriously questioning the quality of your ears or just joking? :)

Move on and enjoy some music or a good movie!
I appreciate your response. Yet I cannot look away for this such evil things! I’ve got friend which bought stuffs from this guy! I’ve tried to convince my friend to better off these kind products and he may not hear any improvement. But you know, my friend still bought this shitty things and claimed he hear differences!
I am really sad and I shall not give up untill I can objectively prove these things are all full of crap!
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I appreciate your response. Yet I cannot look away for this such evil things! I’ve got friend which bought stuffs from this guy! I’ve tried to convince my friend to better off these kind products and he may not hear any improvement. But you know, my friend still bought this shitty things and claimed he hear differences!
I am really sad and I shall not give up until I can objectively prove these things are all full of crap!
Yes, it can be frustrating, can't it. These items are not necessarily "shitty" but just overpriced. I have some electronics repair experience and there are some benefits to having a good linear power for certain DACs. If you use a Raspberry Pi with a good DAC HAT, for example, the stock Pi comes with a cheap power adapter that can be noisy. The others are correct though in that high quality audio caps have no place in a power supply. Total waste of money and Highfigh is spot on with post #4.

The same thing goes for routers and switches. Those are totally digital devices and are not in any audio signal path. There is no need for any kind of upgrade in any switch or router. Those are designed to have zero error rates right out of the box. How could anyone reliably transfer files through a router if there were bit errors? It's total nonsense.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Perhaps you can setup a blind test of some sort with the different power supplies....or just let your friend feel like he's in the "audiophile" club.
 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
Yes, it can be frustrating, can't it. These items are not necessarily "shitty" but just overpriced. I have some electronics repair experience and there are some benefits to having a good linear power for certain DACs. If you use a Raspberry Pi with a good DAC HAT, for example, the stock Pi comes with a cheap power adapter that can be noisy. The others are correct though in that high quality audio caps have no place in a power supply. Total waste of money and Highfigh is spot on with post #4.

The same thing goes for routers and switches. Those are totally digital devices and are not in any audio signal path. There is no need for any kind of upgrade in any switch or router. Those are designed to have zero error rates right out of the box. How could anyone reliably transfer files through a router if there were bit errors? It's total nonsense.
Totally agree!
 
D

Ducnguyen2k10

Audiophyte
Perhaps you can setup a blind test of some sort with the different power supplies....or just let your friend feel like he's in the "audiophile" club.
I did tried to convince my friend doing blind testing to hear the difference btw his $2k power supply cord vs $2 one and he failed. After that test, he got angry and refused to do futher blind test with usb cable, ethernet cable changing. So sad!
My approach is more of scientific. I need more people to do blind testing to collect statistic data. Only that way I can prove them wrong!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I did tried to convince my friend doing blind testing to hear the difference btw his $2k power supply cord vs $2 one and he failed. After that test, he got angry and refused to do futher blind test with usb cable, ethernet cable changing. So sad!
My approach is more of scientific. I need more people to do blind testing to collect statistic data. Only that way I can prove them wrong!
Sometimes you can try but not convince....their loss.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I said same thing! I told my friend that he actually wasting his money! But he never listens!
LOL I have a friend I sold a Bose Acoustimass system a long time ago to....I got a great deal due to a friend of mine having a commercial Bose installation at a club and they were trying to promote the Acoustimass thing at the time.....I listened for a coupla weeks and didn't like it at all compared to the better speakers I already had at the time and sold them to a friend....but he likes them due to aesthetics and then he married a Bose fan and she just added to it....it sounds horrible but what can you do? She will not entertain changes and he is p....whipped.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I did tried to convince my friend doing blind testing to hear the difference btw his $2k power supply cord vs $2 one and he failed. After that test, he got angry and refused to do futher blind test with usb cable, ethernet cable changing. So sad!
My approach is more of scientific. I need more people to do blind testing to collect statistic data. Only that way I can prove them wrong!
If there's one thing people that deny science hate, it's being proven that science is in fact, correct.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I had a big online fight with this guy making so-called “hi-end” linear power supply.
I said the capacitors he’s using in his LPS should not provide better DC output than the same parameter capacitors!
I challenged him to show the oscilioscope of his LPS DC output measurement but he tried to avoid.
I don’t see the neccesity to use audio-grade capacitors in the LPS.
Additionally, this guy and some of his friends argued that LPS is essential and should improve SQ when using to power ethernet switch, and DC-powered equipments in the chain of audio system.
Does anyone here has experience and knowleage to prove me wrong!?
Argument #1-- IF pure DC power was a huge benefit, then wouldn't we all just be using batteries to power our gear? (you would still need a constant current source circuit to maintain performance as the battery voltage declines). The fact that we don't need / use batteries tells you immediately that a pure DC power supply is not necessary. In fact, if you were to see the allowable ripple for a LPS for a power amp, you would likely be surprised. That parameter simply is not terribly critical for a power amp.

When we talk about caps and we assume that they are in spec and spec'd properly for the task, then it is the Equivalent Series Resistance that is one of the most important parameters of a cap.

OK, so now if he puts so much $ and faith into a Cap, what about other factors such as the Power Supply Rejection Ratio?

I have studied power supplies for amps fairly extensively, and built several myself. One of the better approaches is to use large filtering caps that are then bypassed with smaller ceramic caps, and I have also substituted those caps for better quality audio grade caps (likely didn't make much difference in performance).

Ask this guy is he has snubber caps on his diodes?

Be sure to check out some pics on my thread here!

For reference, some of my previous work:

PS specs:

*EMI filter on the mains input, IEC connection
*Safety fuses on the mains and on the secondaries.
*625KVA Toroid Transformer (Avel)
*Fast Switching Diodes (On-Semiconductor) that are heat-sinked and snubber cap'd (you don't often see proper snubbing in commercial designs)
*36,000 uF filter caps PER Rail for a total of 72,000uF! (Panasonic)
*Bypass caps on the output (Vishay)
*16AWG rail outputs
*Total cost was about $260, but I also had some stuff in stock already like the power switch and connectors. So, say total build in the neighborhood of $275 just for the PS. While that doesn't "seem cheap", this thing is a beast! It should be able to handle 400W continuous without a hiccup, and likely even more. I would put it up against most any PS and any consumer product. I should be set for robust and reliable power for decades now!


EDIT-- By the way, I do indeed have a Bottlehead Quickie Tube Pre-amp. It is powered by Batteries completely! It also has a constant current source upgrade circuit. It is a very neat and eclectic piece of gear, no doubt!
 
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