GR Research Hot topic?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I believe Danny said the crossover on the Ultra speakers was excellent and well designed but "cheesy parts". I don't know how those 2 things exist together? I believe he copied the exact crossover but with "better parts" but I again that all makes zero sense to me.

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Ya gotta believe! What's Danny's favorite, calling you a flat earther if you don't agree with him?
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Ya gotta believe! What's Danny's favorite, calling you a flat earther if you don't agree with him?
That's right, he does do that. I'm far from a flat earther and I don't believe his BS so there is that.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
If that's all he does, then what he really might be doing is prolonging the life of the crossover. I have no clue if they're susceptible to wear in a crossover like they are in an AVR or a PC motherboard, but when caps start to crap out, it's a problem. I know a guy who used to re-cap motherboards because he thought the caps made the voltage more stable.

He's also the only person I've ever seen do that, so take him being a crazy EE with too much free time with a grain of salt.
Electrolytic Caps will degrade over time. These should never be used in an XO. (Though they sometimes are.)
The Poly-Caps and NPE-Caps (Non-polarized elecrolytic) that are most common in Audio Crossovers are pretty stable as I understand it.
Usually, the main Inductor on the Woofer can easily be very large and will often be replaced by a Solid Core Inductor rather than the preferred Air Core Inductors, due to size and cost.
Same with the Caps on a Tweeter circuit: the main Cap will often be an NPE instead of Poly- or Film- Cap. The NPEs are smaller and much less expensive than their equivalent Poly Cap.

This is where things start to get interesting.
Many complain about saturation effect in an Iron Core Inductor. There are Steel Core inductors, too. Some say this Saturation is highly problematic in the Audio Band, while others say that the Saturation effect lies outside of the audio range. Either way, you start to see why some may want different components in that instance.
Similarly with Capacitors, you have higher ESR with NPEs that some insist is detrimental. Some of these then insist you can use an NPE but need to parallel a low-value poly-cap with it in order to eliminate that ESR associated with the NPE. Others still insist you must avoid NPEs at all cost.
*shrugs

The boutique designers I know DO NOT seem to worry about this in any way. They implement the components of their choice as they see fit, looking to balance cost and size of the XO circuitry while providing the high end sound they are known for.

It is important to keep in mind that switching out components for others can actually be detrimental to the finished product by, for example, changing the resistance inherent in an inductor.

Anyway... these same designers are not fans of using the silly "premium" components. They recognize that they are meaningless to the final product, even in a $10K pair of flagship Towers. They like to use Poly Caps and Air Core Inductors, when appropriate, but will also use some Steel Laminate Inductors and NPEs if the corresponding Air Cores and Poly-Caps are too large and expensive.
I asked one of these gentlemen one time if it was worth it to upgrade. He responded by asking if I was looking to gain something more. I told him that I didn't expect there to be a difference and was curious to his thoughts...
"I'll gladly charge you more if you want, but it's not going to change the Speaker. It's already designed the best it can be."

:)
 
D

Discrete Output

Enthusiast
Tube connectors for $55 dollars that make all the difference, but never shows any measurements. PVC wire jacket is they enemy, again with no evidence. Even his before and after crossover frequency response graphs are often not very impressive. I will pass.
 
K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
I think we have our answer. The only clown that uses the word cheese to describe speakers. My, my are you upset.
And guess what there bubbles, he is getting your money so what's the difference. Everyone is trying to part us from our money , whether it's the speaker manufacturer or this clown with his "upgrades". Then again I suspect this is that said clown.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

No one says Cheese to describe electrical components in a speaker.
I would truly welcome someone trying to help me to NOT make a poor purchase decision.

After all, spending big bucks, you feel like it just has to make a difference in your mind, and hearing many on an audio forum say it "really will not" gets to some guys. They feel they are being belittled or can not be wrong.

I have just not really run into anyone that bought his "upgrade" crossovers and could vouch for them.
 
K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
Bummer & Willienelkins does it again
I think what makes me laugh..............B+Ws Engineers just did not do a good job.......He says.

As if they are totally incompetent and just some guys off the street. Is that REALLY believable?

Or did they design it that way intentionally, OR, is Danny not really measuring it well and applying "Fixes" to things that really are not all that broken?

For just $300 plus I can fix it all though. Of course we need Tube Connectors......then he loses all credibility with me.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I think what makes me laugh..............B+Ws Engineers just did not do a good job.......He says.

As if they are totally incompetent and just some guys off the street. Is that REALLY believable?

Or did they design it that way intentionally, OR, is Danny not really measuring it well and applying "Fixes" to things that really are not all that broken?

For just $300 plus I can fix it all though. Of course we need Tube Connectors......then he loses all credibility with me.
That dude is a flat out clown. Pure snake oil and bullshit that guys selling.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
A

Am_P

Full Audioholic
I think what makes me laugh..............B+Ws Engineers just did not do a good job.......He says.

As if they are totally incompetent and just some guys off the street. Is that REALLY believable?

Or did they design it that way intentionally, OR, is Danny not really measuring it well and applying "Fixes" to things that really are not all that broken?

For just $300 plus I can fix it all though. Of course we need Tube Connectors......then he loses all credibility with me.
Do you know the inner workings of a large company like B&W with a wide range of offerings from 20+ years ago? (a.k.a this is a 20+ year old speaker). I sure don't. Is it is possible that they only cared enough and assigned their senior engineer to the high end line? Maybe. Is it possible that they were just stretched thin, just didn't care enough about the budget line and put the intern on it? Maybe. Looking at a limited display from sound&vision, it doesn't look like GR measured something out the wazoo..
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-cdm-nt-series-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

I don't own any of GR's fix-it kits. I don't even remotely care to buy any "cables" either. But, i've had his budget Encore kit for a while and it sounds very good....and i just...i mean just am getting (as of yesterday) closer to the finish line with his higher end NX-Otica kit that i bought. Initial listening impressions......Do i think he's a competent speaker designer? FK yes....his Otica open baffle kit sounds incredible.

As for the fix-it kits themselves, why the hell wouldn't he do it? He's a mom/pop type of shop business owner and if a bunch of random guys are sending their old speakers in and saying, "Hey Danny, can you change something/fix something on this thing??" Why the hell wouldn't he tinker with it and come up with a "fix-it" kit in that instance? He is not asking all these random guys to send them in. They're sending it in themselves because they apparently weren't happy with it. So, what's your problem with that man? Some random guy who wasn't happy with his speaker should forever remain unhappy with it? and never tinker with it? Why? Is it an act of loyalty he should display towards the intern who did up his speaker at Bummers & WillieNelkins? This is the part that really baffles me w.r.t the thought process that some of you guys have around here.

I personally have diy'd a handful of speakers from scratch in the past 20 years (some attempts failed miserably of course, some worked alright). But, why the fk would i not tinker with something i don't quite like??? What is with this brand loyalty crap? IF you are not exactly a handy guy, that's fine, i understand. In that case, buy something and live with it (hopefully, happily ever after).
 
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K

kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
Do you know the inner workings of a large company like B&W with a wide range of offerings from 20+ years ago? (a.k.a this is a 20+ year old speaker). I sure don't. Is it is possible that they only cared enough and assigned their senior engineer to the high end line? Maybe. Is it possible that they were just stretched thin, just didn't care enough about the budget line and put the intern on it? Maybe. Looking at a limited display from sound&vision, it doesn't look like GR measured something out the wazoo..
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-cdm-nt-series-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

I don't own any of GR's fix-it kits. I don't even remotely care to buy any "cables" either. But, i've had his budget Encore kit for a while and it sounds very good....and i just...i mean just am getting (as of yesterday) closer to the finish line with his higher end NX-Otica kit that i bought. Initial listening impressions......Do i think he's a competent speaker designer? FK yes....his Otica open baffle kit sounds incredible.

As for the fix-it kits themselves, why the hell wouldn't he do it? He's a mom/pop type of shop business owner and if a bunch of random guys are sending their old speakers in and saying, "Hey Danny, can you change something/fix something on this thing??" Why the hell wouldn't he tinker with it and come up with a "fix-it" kit in that instance? He is not asking all these random guys to send them in. They're sending it in themselves because they apparently weren't happy with it. So, what's your problem with that man? Some random guy who wasn't happy with his speaker should forever remain unhappy with it? and never tinker with it? Why? Is it an act of loyalty he should display towards the intern who did up his speaker at Bummers & WillieNelkins? This is the part that really baffles me w.r.t the thought process that some of you guys have around here.

I personally have diy'd a handful of speakers from scratch in the past 20 years (some attempts failed miserably of course, some worked alright). But, why the fk would i not tinker with something i don't quite like??? What is with this brand loyalty crap? IF you are not exactly a handy guy, that's fine, i understand. In that case, buy something and live with it (hopefully, happily ever after).
1. No intern worked on B+W speakers and "messed" them up as you say. You are really grasping now. ALL Speakers by EVERY major speaker company are highly measured, Intentionally designed and have more than ONE Engineer doing them. Usually a team of designers and engineers work hand in hand, with constraints from the "Bean Counters" and with focus groups to verify results. Nothing is like you describe at all.

And no I have NO brand loyalty for B+W, but simply realize from MY experience you are WAYYYY off base, and so is Danny.

2. The thought process some have, is based on knowing MORE than Danny knows. He comes off making silly comments about things, then offers a VERY over priced "Cure"....it is a bit laughable to anyone in the industry.

3. Being someone that HAS designed Speakers (Retail and DIY) and knowing "some" inner workings of what really goes on, and how things are done, I can tell you in the case of this speaker, he is fixing something that is only a very minor issue.

4. Yes I Saw the sound and Vision measurement, and I concur they look mostly similar to his measurement, except for Danny is not accounting for the age of the speaker and caps. I get a 20 year old speaker that will be an inherent issue on most, but he is basing his bashing of engineers on something that may have "Partially" degraded by now.
Going by Sound and Vision measurement, he is in the ballpark for sure.

Where the issue is, their measurements AND his, are really NOT anything bad at all. They are minor dips and rises and all within a small window of accuracy.

Sound and vision show a result of:

On-axis response of the CDM 1NT surround measures +3.12/-3.29 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

Does that really need fixed for over 300 dollars??


FWIW, I have nothing against Danny. He is actually a VERY nice guy in person, quite friendly, and comes off a bit less how he is on the videos, as far as talking down Engineers and so on.

It is what he is Selling that most have issues with. Not the guy.
 
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A

Am_P

Full Audioholic
1. No intern worked on B+W speakers and "messed" them up as you say. You are really grasping now. ALL Speakers by EVERY major speaker company are highly measured, Intentionally designed and have more than ONE Engineer doing them. Usually a team of designers and engineers work hand in hand, with constraints from the "Bean Counters" and with focus groups to verify results. Nothing is like you describe at all.
The point i was trying to make is a company like B&W with a wide range of offerings at various price points are not going to scrutinize everything on the budget line. Are you saying that their 30k speaker and their 300 dollar speaker get the same engineering staff and time?? Bullsht!

In fact, i recall that budget speakers from 15 , 20 years ago used to sound like bull crap. Budget speakers starting to sound good is a relatively newer trend. Guys like Andrew Jones came out with dirt cheap speakers (Pioneers, etc) that actually sounded pretty good and raised the bar. Now, every manufacturer seems to be making an effort on their budget lines as well.

And what industry exactly do you work in? I play a lead R&D role in a different larger industry (nothing to do with audio) and i lead a sizeable team. I assign interns to work on low heat trivial sht when we get them in. I was a faculty member some time ago before i quit academia and moved to industry. I don't know if you this, but, every guy out there with an engineering degree out does not have the same capability or aptitude. A couple of my former PhD students may go on to make some great contributions somewhere. Some of the undergrads are going to be working some lower level process engineering at some ittybitty company (and get their paychecks on time).

But, if there's something you know about how staffing works in larger engineering enterprises that i have yet to know, i'm all ears. Maybe there's just something special going on with the large audio companies and how they manage their project scopes/budgets. Let me know what that is.


And no I have NO brand loyalty for B+W, but simply realize from MY experience you are WAYYYY off base, and so is Danny.

2. The thought process some have, is based on knowing MORE than Danny knows. He comes off making silly comments about things, then offers a VERY over priced "Cure"....it is a bit laughable to anyone in the industry.

3. Being someone that HAS designed Speakers (Retail and DIY) and knowing "some" inner workings of what really goes on, and how things are done, I can tell you in the case of this speaker, he is fixing something that is only a very minor issue.

4. Yes I Saw the sound and Vision measurement, and I concur they look mostly similar to his measurement, except for Danny is not accounting for the age of the speaker and caps. I get a 20 year old speaker that will be an inherent issue on most, but he is basing his bashing of engineers on something that may have "Partially" degraded by now.
Going by Sound and Vision measurement, he is in the ballpark for sure.

Where the issue is, their measurements AND his, are really NOT anything bad at all. They are minor dips and rises and all within a small window of accuracy.
Again...Next thing you're gonna say is you worked at a "large" audio company? B&W? Yamaha? Sound United? Maybe you're this forum guy who can design better speakers than GR or Andrew Jones or Greg Timbers? Who knows? Anything is possible, i guess.

Either way, whatever speaker diy kit GR offers seems to sound really good to me so far...and i am not questioning his competence as a speaker designer. Maybe you are way more competent than him? IF that's the case, sell me a speaker, i'll check it out.
From what i'm seeing, his 'fix-it' kits are just a market he's catering to. There's a customer base that seems to want if from him and he just seems to be responding to it.

Sound and vision show a result of:

On-axis response of the CDM 1NT surround measures +3.12/-3.29 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz.

Does that really need fixed for over 300 dollars??
No speaker is perfect at any price point. Anything can be improved, especially an older budget speaker....and especially if the guy who owns it wants it....and is willing to shell out 300 bucks for it....
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I have said it many times. If you don't want to listen to what Danny says, then don' t listen :) He's not forcing anyone to buy his "fix" kits. His speakers are good though. My current systems still include some of those speakers. The Carnegie CSC-1 center blends surprisingly well with my Philharmonitors. I've owned a number of his speakers and they have all sounded good to me.

With any speaker designer, they have a sound preference, a signature sound basically. When they hear another design, they may think "I would like to adjust a particular tone on that design so it sounds like this..." Or, "I would have done it this way". There is no "wrong", it is just how they want it to sound and there are obviously people interested. Sometimes I need to listen to a speaker a bit more to decide if I really like it and need to hear a wide variety of content on them. That is because they were designed with the profile of the designer and I may or may not agree with that. Then there are speakers like the Phils where you know instantly that they're great.
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
So Danny's don't compete with the Phils?
They're a different sound. The BG tweeters used in Danny's ribbon speaker designs aren't quite as airy as the RAAL tweeters. Danny's custom built M130 woofer has always sounded great, so mids are definitely solid. The Philz are also about 2X the price of the GR speakers I have. Obviously, I still use them :)
 
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kevintomb

Junior Audioholic
I have said it many times. If you don't want to listen to what Danny says, then don' t listen :) He's not forcing anyone to buy his "fix" kits. His speakers are good though. My current systems still include some of those speakers. The Carnegie CSC-1 center blends surprisingly well with my Philharmonitors. I've owned a number of his speakers and they have all sounded good to me.

With any speaker designer, they have a sound preference, a signature sound basically. When they hear another design, they may think "I would like to adjust a particular tone on that design so it sounds like this..." Or, "I would have done it this way". There is no "wrong", it is just how they want it to sound and there are obviously people interested. Sometimes I need to listen to a speaker a bit more to decide if I really like it and need to hear a wide variety of content on them. That is because they were designed with the profile of the designer and I may or may not agree with that. Then there are speakers like the Phils where you know instantly that they're great.
Forcing?
No he is simply misleading people that they must buy high priced caps and tube connectors to get good sound. Any of his "Fixes" could be accomplished, for a fraction of the price he charges, based SOLELY on buying reasonable priced good caps and leaving the "Tube connectors" out of the equation.

I totally agree his speakers are quite good!!
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Forcing?
No he is simply misleading people that they must buy high priced caps and tube connectors to get good sound. Any of his "Fixes" could be accomplished, for a fraction of the price he charges, based SOLELY on buying reasonable priced good caps and leaving the "Tube connectors" out of the equation.

I totally agree his speakers are quite good!!
It is said often here, "there's one born every minute". The tube connectors are interesting. Do they improve sound? Doubtful. I have them on my Carnegies designed by Danny. I use them with BFA plugs, and I can't imagine they really add to the sound. So people have to be able to determine that themselves. I don't think him believing that makes him a shill.

Meniscus sells cap, resistor and connector upgrades right along side the BMR kit and some of them are very expensive. Are they necessary? Does that make them shills also? It is part of our audio landscape.
 
D

D Murphy

Full Audioholic
It is said often here, "there's one born every minute". The tube connectors are interesting. Do they improve sound? Doubtful. I have them on my Carnegies designed by Danny. I use them with BFA plugs, and I can't imagine they really add to the sound. So people have to be able to determine that themselves. I don't think him believing that makes him a shill.

Meniscus sells cap, resistor and connector upgrades right along side the BMR kit and some of them are very expensive. Are they necessary? Does that make them shills also? It is part of our audio landscape.
Well--Meniscus Mark isn't making any unsubstantiated claims about the performance of the upgraded components. There's a demand for them, and any reasonable retailer would make them available. Parts Express does. Madisound does. Meniscus does. My advice--buy the standard offerings.
 
A

Am_P

Full Audioholic
It is said often here, "there's one born every minute". The tube connectors are interesting. Do they improve sound? Doubtful. I have them on my Carnegies designed by Danny. I use them with BFA plugs, and I can't imagine they really add to the sound. So people have to be able to determine that themselves. I don't think him believing that makes him a shill.

Meniscus sells cap, resistor and connector upgrades right along side the BMR kit and some of them are very expensive. Are they necessary? Does that make them shills also? It is part of our audio landscape.
There are many strange constructs in the world of physics/mathematics that can be very hard for one's common logic and his sense of truth (as perceived by his senses) to accept, y'know? For instance, if i said, hey, Mr. Garcia, you are not really sitting there in front of your computer, but, you are appearing and disappearing a gazillion times every nanosecond. Amir Majimoomoo's noggin and his li'l Klippel are both going to implode if they heard that. A subatomic particle like the electron itself is a very questionable li'l thing (wave like nature, particle like nature, all kinds of interesting stuff)..And the listener himself...We might as well start with the clinically deaf composers and musicians out there...Generally, it may be a better idea to not have strong beliefs and disbeliefs with these types of things, it could be a better idea to try and relate to these things instead (IMO, of course).

But, if a guy tries to sell another guy a cable and connector that costs as much as a truck, you know he's got the guy on all fours and is liberating him real hard. A profound piece of wire and a connector could never cost more than 50 bucks. As long as we hang on to this profound truth, we should all be ok ;).
 

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