Seeking subwoofer suggestions to pair with RF7's and RC64iii for a music-centric owner

[robwas]

I wasn't sure which forum to post this in since it could fall anywhere but having not been much in the loop with new audio gear choices I was hoping to get some solid advice. I'm currently using a fairly cobbled together system but I really love it, the problem is my current subwoofers (a pair of 1980's era 15" vega D9's with new drivers) is consuming a ton of space in my smaller living-room. I listed most of my system in the thread title but to reiterate I'm using a Marantz preamp, a pair of QSC SRA 3622 amplifiers that drive a pair of Klipsch RF7 version 1's an RC64iii center channel and my old Cerwin Vegas with replaced woofers just for bass. The system sounds quite good but I'd really love to eliminate the old D9's and free up some space by adding a subwoofer. I did try just using the Klipsch speakers without any subs but didn't care for it even with music as much no matter how I adjusted the settings on my Marantz. My wife and i listen to music more than anything, usually I use multi channel stereo or just stereo modes, i have my x-over set as low as possible with speaker size set to small. So my question is what would be a good match for my system with music not movies and home theater as the primary purchasing criteria? TIA.

 

[NINaudio]

What are your goals, listening habits (volumes and music types), how big is the listening area, what's your budget? Does the Marantz have sub outputs?

A good sub is a good sub, whether you're just listening to music or have it in a home theater. We usually suggest using an 80 HZ lowpass for sub integration

 

[Pogre]

Matching subs to your room size is more relevant than what speakers you're using.

I'm a little confused about your current subwoofers. The CV D9 is not a subwoofer?

 

[robwas]

Matching subs to your room size is more relevant than what speakers you're using.

I'm a little confused about your current subwoofers. The CV D9 is not a subwoofer?

Thanks for the reply, my room is the downstairs of my home which is 20x30' but the space where the speakers are placed is quite small and when we sit to listen we are only perhaps 10' from the speakers. I have noticed sometimes that there's actually more bass in my kitchen than my livingroom so maybe that's has something to do with room size? The Cerwin Vega D9's are not a subwoofer but I've disconnected the midrange and tweeters and drive them from an external amp which is fed from the subwoofer output of my preamp. Yes, the Marantz I have has dedicated subwoofer outputs, it has no speaker level outputs just RCA and XLR (I use the XLR into the QSC amps). I really thought when I got the RF7's the bass would be more than I needed but after trying it with and without using the old D9's as a sub it definitely sounds better with them, much richer and fuller sounding. I did try configuring my preamp to no sub thinking it was just an EQ thing but those cabinets with the 15's just seem to play lower and it makes the entire system sound richer. I just feel like I'm sitting in front of a wall of speakers and would love to get the same sound or better but not have all these boxes in a relatively small space. I've attached a photo. I bought the RF7's used for an absolute steal as well as the center channel.

 

[robwas]

What are your goals, listening habits (volumes and music types), how big is the listening area, what's your budget? Does the Marantz have sub outputs?

A good sub is a good sub, whether you're just listening to music or have it in a home theater. We usually suggest using an 80 HZ lowpass for sub integration

Thanks for replying. Generally I rarely listen to music loud but I enjoy having a system with lots of headroom and on some occasions I'll enjoy it louder. Tastes in music are all over the place, everything from jazz to country to rock folk and most everything in between, even rap sometimes. Budget would be I guess whatever i need to complement my RF7's and get great sound for music but if I had to put a maximum dollar cost I would not want to exceed $3000 on this upgrade. My marantz processor has subwoofer outputs, it's a preamp only not speaker level outputs or power amps built in. I had an Outlaw 990 but it died (kept shutting off) so I purchased this to replace it maybe 5 years ago or so. Here's a photo of my situation, the big 15" speakers are just being used as subwoofers, they play quite low, i have 2 of them wired together. I don't know if one sub can replace those. I'm assuming to be of benefit for such large main speakers a fairly large subwoofer would make sense?

 

[Eppie]

A proper subwoofer will have about the same footprint as a D9. Funny thing is, most times people will recommend 2 subs to even out the response in the room, so no net space savings. I do not recommend going for a compact sub in a room that size. You'll want at least a ported 12" sub to match the output of 2 D9s, like an SVS PB2000 Pro. Maybe even a PB3000 if you want only 1 sub. Hsu makes some great subs as well. Audioholics recently reviewed subs from Starke Sound and with current sales offer good value for the money, but a more industrial look. Monoprice is a good option and also has lower cost models in addition to some killer subs.

 

[robwas]

A proper subwoofer will have about the same footprint as a D9. Funny thing is, most times people will recommend 2 subs to even out the response in the room, so no net space savings. I do not recommend going for a compact sub in a room that size. You'll want at least a ported 12" sub to match the output of 2 D9s, like an SVS PB2000 Pro. Maybe even a PB3000 if you want only 1 sub. Hsu makes some great subs as well. Audioholics recently reviewed subs from Starke Sound and with current sales offer good value for the money, but a more industrial look. Monoprice is a good option and also has lower cost models in addition to some killer subs.

Yes, I figured the footprint would be similar but they or it wouldn't stand so tall. I wasn't even looking at anything smaller than 15" so far, I even thought maybe the JTR captivator single 18" model might fit the bill. I wonder if this would be overkill. I was thinking of one sub but the current system sounds great to me, just big and ugly... not sure one sub would sound the same, maybe considering two smaller subs makes sense? From what I'm gathering so far on the comments is any high quality sub will sound good with music but matching room size and woofer size in the sub to match the rest of the system would be wise.

 

[Eppie]

There are some good articles and YT videos from Audioholics on the benefits of multi-sub. At low frequencies you can get standing waves that give you dead spots and hot spots. Some of this can be addressed with sub placement and doing what they call "the sub crawl" to find the best location. A second sub (or more for some) will even out the response through the room, and they don't have to go next to the mains. You could have one up front and another located to the side or rear.

If you think in terms of cone area, two 15" subs will have more surface area then a single 18", so two smaller subs can yield as much SPL as one large one with the benefit of more even bass throughout the room. I think I'll defer to the experts as to whether two ported 12" subs would be enough for a 20'x30' room, but I'm pretty certain that two 15" will be enough.

From Hsu, two VTF-15 MK2 would be under $2500 but you have to pay shipping from CA. Hsu has been well regarded and a few members here own them. Starke Audio is newer to the game and currently has 40% off some of their models. The SW15 is a bargain right now, marked down from $900 to $540. It has a utilitarian design though. There is a recent review on this site. The Starke Sub35 is a 12" but adds two 12" passive radiators so it outputs the same 116dB as the SW15 in a smaller and nicer package at $1230 each (reg. $1880). Monoprice makes some great Monolith subs when you get into the THX certified models and the prices are very competitive. M-15 V2 is $1400 each and the previous 15" is on sale for $1100. They also have a 13" THX for $1600 that will perform just as well. Piano gloss will cost extra if available. Those are a good starting point. You might get other recommendations as well. You should check out those Audioholics articles in the meantime and let us know if you need links to find them.

 

[Pogre]

From Hsu, two VTF-15 MK2 would be under $2500 but you have to pay shipping from CA.

Should be well under $2500 shipped, plus taxes unless he's outside conus. For that matter the VFT-3 MK5 has almost identical perfomance to the VTF-15 MK2, with just slightly less deep bass performance (17 hz vs 16 hz), but either will play well into the infrasonic range below what we can hear.

Bundles

The best value for price home theater systems and subwoofers on the market guaranteed

hsuresearch.com

$1769 plus tax and shipping for a pair of them and $909 for a single. Of course I would recommend a pair for such a big room.

Yes, I figured the footprint would be similar but they or it wouldn't stand so tall. I wasn't even looking at anything smaller than 15" so far, I even thought maybe the JTR captivator single 18" model might fit the bill. I wonder if this would be overkill. I was thinking of one sub but the current system sounds great to me, just big and ugly... not sure one sub would sound the same, maybe considering two smaller subs makes sense? From what I'm gathering so far on the comments is any high quality sub will sound good with music but matching room size and woofer size in the sub to match the rest of the system would be wise.

If you do go with a single the Captivator is a pretty good candidate. It's a lot of sub but I do agree with Eppie about the advantages of going with dual 15s. As he said, you'll have more cone surface area, equivalent or better spl and the advantages of having duals to help even out the response.

I like what you did with the D9s! I totally believe you that it helped round out your bass and made everything sound fuller. With the way you hooked 'em up I can see it working out as long as they weren't bottoming out or anything. Nice way to get a little more life out of them, lol. Wait til you get some proper subwoofage that can hit true infrasonics in there tho. You get everything set up right and it'll take to your system to the next level.

 

[robwas]

There are some good articles and YT videos from Audioholics on the benefits of multi-sub. At low frequencies you can get standing waves that give you dead spots and hot spots. Some of this can be addressed with sub placement and doing what they call "the sub crawl" to find the best location. A second sub (or more for some) will even out the response through the room, and they don't have to go next to the mains. You could have one up front and another located to the side or rear.

If you think in terms of cone area, two 15" subs will have more surface area then a single 18", so two smaller subs can yield as much SPL as one large one with the benefit of more even bass throughout the room. I think I'll defer to the experts as to whether two ported 12" subs would be enough for a 20'x30' room, but I'm pretty certain that two 15" will be enough.

From Hsu, two VTF-15 MK2 would be under $2500 but you have to pay shipping from CA. Hsu has been well regarded and a few members here own them. Starke Audio is newer to the game and currently has 40% off some of their models. The SW15 is a bargain right now, marked down from $900 to $540. It has a utilitarian design though. There is a recent review on this site. The Starke Sub35 is a 12" but adds two 12" passive radiators so it outputs the same 116dB as the SW15 in a smaller and nicer package at $1230 each (reg. $1880). Monoprice makes some great Monolith subs when you get into the THX certified models and the prices are very competitive. M-15 V2 is $1400 each and the previous 15" is on sale for $1100. They also have a 13" THX for $1600 that will perform just as well. Piano gloss will cost extra if available. Those are a good starting point. You might get other recommendations as well. You should check out those Audioholics articles in the meantime and let us know if you need links to find them.

Thank you for the suggestions along with prices. I'm glad I asked because I'm gathering from the comments using two might really be beneficial over one and is quite similar to what I have now although I don't think my D9's with the replacement drivers I installed 20 years ago go down into the infrasonic range. I hadn't thought about HSU but they seem very well regarded. To be honest I'm not a huge tweaker, once I set something I like to leave it alone unless something doesn't sound right so things like a cell phone app doesn't appeal to me like some. I did spend a lot of time getting things to sound how I wanted them initially though, played with crossovers settings, levels, and some EQ but in the end went by ear even though I have a mic and Audyssey built into my Marantz. I'm currently reading the articles, it seems there are a lot of great choices. Listening to Alison Krauss in the background off Amazon HD music.

 

[robwas]

Should be well under $2500 shipped, plus taxes unless he's outside conus. For that matter the VFT-3 MK5 has almost identical perfomance to the VTF-15 MK2, with just slightly less deep bass performance (17 hz vs 16 hz), but either will play well into the infrasonic range below what we can hear.

Bundles

The best value for price home theater systems and subwoofers on the market guaranteed

hsuresearch.com

$1769 plus tax and shipping for a pair of them and $909 for a single. Of course I would recommend a pair for such a big room.

If you do go with a single the Captivator is a pretty good candidate. It's a lot of sub but I do agree with Eppie about the advantages of going with dual 15s. As he said, you'll have more cone surface area, equivalent or better spl and the advantages of having duals to help even out the response.

I like what you did with the D9s! I totally believe you that it helped round out your bass and made everything sound fuller. With the way you hooked 'em up I can see it working out as long as they weren't bottoming out or anything. Nice way to get a little more life out of them, lol. Wait til you get some proper subwoofage that can hit true infrasonics in there tho. You get everything set up right and it'll take to your system to the next level.

Yes, I keep seeing people suggest dual subs and it makes sense. I don't really have a ton of placement choice either and have definitely experienced things like phase cancellations in car setups and other situations, it can be really weird standing right in front of speakers and not hearing much bass but then moving to another room where it's shaking the plaster off the walls. Those old D9's have been with me since I was 16 years old and were part of my first stereo. It's crazy, I've seen people selling those old speakers for several hundred dollars on various forums since retro audio has become a thing. Here's a photo when they were new and had the original woofers, I blew them out when I was into loud music and replaced them with something that had higher power handling and lower bass but it never really mixed with the rest of the drivers well. I still have the original woofers, actually I have four of them since a friend gave me his but never had them repaired. I built a stand out of cinderblocks for my turntable because the music would feed back and oscillate at loud volumes, i was so happy when CD's hit the market a few years later.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, I keep seeing people suggest dual subs and it makes sense. I don't really have a ton of placement choice either and have definitely experienced things like phase cancellations in car setups and other situations, it can be really weird standing right in front of speakers and not hearing much bass but then moving to another room where it's shaking the plaster off the walls. Those old D9's have been with me since I was 16 years old and were part of my first stereo. It's crazy, I've seen people selling those old speakers for several hundred dollars on various forums since retro audio has become a thing. Here's a photo when they were new and had the original woofers, I blew them out when I was into loud music and replaced them with something that had higher power handling and lower bass but it never really mixed with the rest of the drivers well. I still have the original woofers, actually I have four of them since a friend gave me his but never had them repaired. I built a stand out of cinderblocks for my turntable because the music would feed back and oscillate at loud volumes, i was so happy when CD's hit the market a few years later.

I would start with one of these, and if you feel you need to even the bass out, get another. I can't see that you would need more than a couple of 12" subs in that room.

HSU would be fine also, but the ones I selected are all backordered.

 

[robwas]

I would start with one of these, and if you feel you need to even the bass out, get another. I can't see that you would need more than a couple of 12" subs in that room.

HSU would be fine also, but the ones I selected are all backordered.

I hadn't really considered 12" subs because my mains have four 10" woofers but it's probably not that simple, I'm sure design plays a lot into the equation. I just figured there's no harm in having too much, can always turn down the volume. Currently the system has dual 15's in my old speaker cabinets, with music they only move a little bit at volumes I normally listen at. Hope to get something more attractive but with equal or better sound. Another consideration is when we move in a couple years the system may be in a larger space, likely a ranch home with an open floor plan.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hard to compare a woofer from a CV to a dedicated sub like the ones being suggested. If close enough to you the room size may not be as big a factor, but I would generally prefer using duals vs a single. Two of something like the PB1000s could be good enough and SVS has a free in home trial for 45 days so you can change your mind and they'll even pick up the return shipping....or work with you for bigger subs.

 

[Pogre]

I would start with one of these, and if you feel you need to even the bass out, get another. I can't see that you would need more than a couple of 12" subs in that room.

HSU would be fine also, but the ones I selected are all backordered.

I... *grumble grumble* agree. A pair of PB1000 Pros might do the trick. Make sure you get the "Pro" versions tho. Those have bigger drivers and a li'l more power than the regular PB1000. Personally I'd go a little bigger but I'm a bass head. Like HD said tho, it's risk free with the trial period if you don't like them.

 

[Eppie]

20'x30' I would lean towards the SVS PB2000Pro. The PB1000 might be enough but the 2000 will give some extra headroom. Depends on your budget and expectations. Personally I like the phone app. It's very easy to adjust the level by a dB or two from the comfort of your chair. I don't adjust it much afterwards but it makes setup a little easier. SVS also sells a good wireless transmitter if you can't get audio cables to one of the subs.

I should mention that these are all powered subs. I forgot to ask whether you were interested in passive subs using your current amps? What were you driving the D9s with and were you using the bass management in the Marantz to set the crossover? If you have decent amplification, passive may be a more reliable option as subwoofer plate amps are notoriously difficult to service. Reliability from the brands mentioned is pretty good though.

 

[TLS Guy]

I hadn't really considered 12" subs because my mains have four 10" woofers but it's probably not that simple, I'm sure design plays a lot into the equation. I just figured there's no harm in having too much, can always turn down the volume. Currently the system has dual 15's in my old speaker cabinets, with music they only move a little bit at volumes I normally listen at. Hope to get something more attractive but with equal or better sound. Another consideration is when we move in a couple years the system may be in a larger space, likely a ranch home with an open floor plan.

Don't over spend. The power required to reproduce the last two octaves is massively overestimated on forums like these. This is a pity, because the power required above the last two octaves is massively underestimated.

The diameter of a bass driver has very little to do with performance in the home. I would make an exception for sealed, as the driver is the only coupler to the air. However ported enclosures, pipes, and horns are acoustic transformers, and the bulk of the radiation does not come from the driver. So, what matters far more then driver size are other parameters of the driver, and total system design.

In my theater I use no sub drivers at all. The bass lines each have two 10" SEAS Excel drivers, yet when the teenagers get up there it will shake the furniture throughout the house.

In our great room, I have one 10" driver in a TL that fills a whole very large space, with ease.

There is more nonsense talked about subs than anything else. It is akin to sports car enthusiasts, comparing their performance with the roar of their exhausts.

Further putting disproportionate money into subs, encourages the user to turn them up too loud, and produce a very unbalanced sound, which is not at all realistic.

Two of the subs I mentioned will probably get more even sound than one. However there is nothing to stop you starting with one and adding another.

I can tell you that two of those 12" subs is already overkill.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I always find it interesting when someone brings up the D-9. I have a pair in my studio, also from my teen years that need new surrounds. Had a lot of fun with those babies!

The thing here, that you probably already know. When dropping a random driver into a cabinet, there’s no guarantee they it will work very well. Obviously you’ll get bass, but in cases like this, you get whatcha get. Those cabs are made to support down to about 30hz, so true deep bass won’t likely happen. Still they’ve been working for all this time so there is that too, however they can’t do what a well designed modern subwoofer can.
If your keeping to svs, I would tray a pair of PC2000 pros. At the end of the day, you’re going to have a largish enclosure, so why not make it more interesting than a rectangular box. If that form doesn’t work, the PB versions will perform identically. I think it’s possible that the PB1000’s could work, but once you find real deep linear bass, you just want more!

Another thing. I believe that the current locations of the CV’s is close enough to each other that the multiple sub benefit will be relegated to a DB bump by being co-loaded to the room, basically acting as one bigger subwoofer, not two that are placed for better room response. Marks British eloquence can possibly elaborate better lol.
Maybe it’s just the picture too.

 

[Pogre]

Don't over spend. The power required to reproduce the last two octaves is massively overestimated on forums like these. This is a pity, because the power required above the last two octaves is massively underestimated.

The diameter of a bass driver has very little to do with performance in the home. I would make an exception for sealed, as the driver is the only coupler to the air. However ported enclosures, pipes, and horns are acoustic transformers, and the bulk of the radiation does not come from the driver. So, what matters far more then driver size are other parameters of the driver, and total system design.

In my theater I use no sub drivers at all. The bass lines each have two 10" SEAS Excel drivers, yet when the teenagers get up there it will shake the furniture throughout the house.

In our great room, I have one 10" driver in a TL that fills a whole very large space, with ease.

There is more nonsense talked about subs than anything else. It is akin to sports car enthusiasts, comparing their performance with the roar of their exhausts.

Further putting disproportionate money into subs, encourages the user to turn them up too loud, and produce a very unbalanced sound, which is not at all realistic.

Two of the subs I mentioned will probably get more even sound than one. However there is nothing to stop you starting with one and adding another.

I can tell you that two of those 12" subs is already overkill.

In a 20' x 30' room, assuming say 9' ceiling would be a volume of 5400 cubic feet. That's enough to earn Audioholics' extreme room rating size. I agree a pair of 12" subs might be okay, but are not overkill. I think moving up in size is not a terrible idea for such a large room. Or at least get the next model up in SVS like the PB2000 or PB3000 pro series. Those are still 12" drivers but offer more appropriate power and performance for such a large room.

You have four 10" drivers in a transmission line design providing sufficient bass in your room, which is how big? You can't compare most others' situation to yours because what you have going there is very unique and uncommon for 99% of the people who post here. Almost no one has a customized diy transmission line system built from the ground up and designed specifically just for their room.

Further putting disproportionate money into subs, encourages the user to turn them up too loud, and produce a very unbalanced sound, which is not at all realistic.

Sure. If one ignores setup advice, piles a bunch of subs into their room and turns the gain up on all of them can result in unbalanced sound. Has anyone here recommended doing that? I would never recommend that. I actually do have some overkill as far as multiple big subs, but I also have everything well balanced (because I care about setting it up that way) and the result is very good, very effortless deep bass performance across many seats in my almost 6000 cubic foot room. I found a pair of 12" subs really struggled to give me the performance I was after.

 

[Pogre]

I always find it interesting when someone brings up the D-9. I have a pair in my studio, also from my teen years that need new surrounds. Had a lot of fun with those babies!

The thing here, that you probably already know. When dropping a random driver into a cabinet, there’s no guarantee they it will work very well. Obviously you’ll get bass, but in cases like this, you get whatcha get. Those cabs are made to support down to about 30hz, so true deep bass won’t likely happen. Still they’ve been working for all this time so there is that too, however they can’t do what a well designed modern subwoofer can.
If your keeping to svs, I would tray a pair of PC2000 pros. At the end of the day, you’re going to have a largish enclosure, so why not make it more interesting than a rectangular box. If that form doesn’t work, the PB versions will perform identically. I think it’s possible that the PB1000’s could work, but once you find real deep linear bass, you just want more!

Another thing. I believe that the current locations of the CV’s is close enough to each other that the multiple sub benefit will be relegated to a DB bump by being co-loaded to the room, basically acting as one bigger subwoofer, not two that are placed for better room response. Marks British eloquence can possibly elaborate better lol.
Maybe it’s just the picture too.

A pair of PC 2000 Pros is a great idea also. Though by that time you're looking at spending about the same amount as you would on a pair of 15" Hsu's, which is why some of us went there.

The PC 2000 is a very capable sub though, and does have a smaller footprint and different form if that's a factor.