Newb to diy needing a sanity check on subwoofer plans

[TLS Guy]

WOW thanks! again you guys come through! I was playing more with winISD at the same time you have been doing these, and I posted my findings above.

I will follow your advise and keep looking, but at the very least this was a good excersise for me to get used to the software and better understand what it's limitations are, (ie just because it shows a reasonable response graph, it doesn't mean you will get a good sub out of it)

thank you so much for the effort, I will spend some time looking over your models to try and improve my understanding!

Exactly what are your requirements?

I have a lot of designs modelled.

I will attach the design for a good ported 12 inch sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

Great info thanks, I was also looking at the Behringer NX1000 which seems to also have the same high/low pass filtering.

A minidsp 2x4 HD was on the list already for if i get a second sub, so I will plan to get that also when the time comes.
From my understanding the HD model is preferable for subs?

The HD model is the best of the 2x4 models in a few ways, albeit a bit more expensive. The Behringer has onboard pretty much the same capabilities for two subs (whereas the 2x4 can handle 4), tho. The Behringer amps tend to have noisy fans, whereas the Crown XLS are very quiet so somewhat may also depend where the amp will be placed or if you want to modify the fans (and potentially lose the limited warranty). Good luck on your project!

 

[lovinthehd]

Exactly what are your requirements?

I have a lot of designs modelled.

I will attach the design for a good ported 12 inch sub.

But is that driver available in Poland in his budget?

 

[marticus]

Exactly what are your requirements?

I have a lot of designs modelled.

I will attach the design for a good ported 12 inch sub.

My requirements are to get better base in my room at as small a reasonable budget as possible.

My room is around 6000 square ft, and I would like to have two subs that will do a reasonable job of improving what I have already, which shouldn't be hard as what I have is a 100w 12" sub that retails for around $180 i guess.

considering WAF, i would like to keep each sub around 70liters. and if possible i would like to get near or below 20hz as this is mainly for movies.

I realise that reality doesn't care about my desires and that these requirements may not be available at my price point LOL.

the other thing i mentioned earlier is that if possible i would like to use european drivers, as the markup on US products is already high over here, and availablility is never guaranteed.

really though i would like to better understand what i'm doing, so that i don't have to rely on you guys to help every time i find a new driver that looks suitable.

Though of course i am immensely grateful for all the help!

 

[marticus]

But is that driver available in Poland in his budget?

it is, but here it costs $310 plus shipping, compared to the $209 that it costs from parts express. so 30% markup.
and i could only see one or two suppliers, so if they go then....

 

[lovinthehd]

it is, but here it costs $310 plus shipping, compared to the $209 that it costs from parts express. so 30% markup.
and i could only see one or two suppliers, so if they go then....

Shipping from where and for how much these days? Might be worth it....

 

[marticus]

Shipping from where and for how much these days? Might be worth it....

That was from Germany, but i just checked another polish store and found that to my suprise they have Dayton drivers in stock, they are marked up, but not as excessively as the german store i had been looking at, maybe that's a possibility after all.

that UM8 comes to about $190, which still isn't great, but eh it's workable i guess, i could probably stretch to the 12" i'm just a mizer who hates paying over the retail lmao

 

[lovinthehd]

Is the Ultimax the only Dayton series they carry? (granted out of stock may not help but might be interesting to ask)

 

[TLS Guy]

Great info thanks, I was also looking at the Behringer NX1000 which seems to also have the same high/low pass filtering.

A minidsp 2x4 HD was on the list already for if i get a second sub, so I will plan to get that also when the time comes.
From my understanding the HD model is preferable for subs?

I missed that you were in Poland.

Poland is in the EEC, and there are actually some pretty decent sub drivers made within the EEC.

Don't get hung up on the F3 within reason. Bass quality aces extension. Without using extended bass alignments, then an F3 around 25 Hz is what is achievable as a rule. A nice tight musical bass with an F3 between 25 and 30 Hz aces a sloppy bass at 20 Hz any day. Don't forget the roll off is 24 db per octave below f3, so there is still lots of output at 20 Hz and below.

Tell me the drivers you have access to, especially from SEAS, Tymphany (Peerless) and Scanspeak.

 

[marticus]

Is the Ultimax the only Dayton series they carry? (granted out of stock may not help but might be interesting to ask)

Looks like they have the reference series also. I'll check some more

 

[marticus]

I missed that you were in Poland.

Poland is in the EEC, and there are actually some pretty decent sub drivers made within the EEC.

Don't get hung up on the F3 within reason. Bass quality aces extension. Without using extended bass alignments, then an F3 around 25 Hz is what is achievable as a rule. A nice tight musical bass with an F3 between 25 and 30 Hz aces a sloppy bass at 20 Hz any day. Don't forget the roll off is 24 db per octave below f3, so there is still lots of output at 20 Hz and below.

Tell me the drivers you have access to, especially from SEAS, Tymphany (Peerless) and Scanspeak.

Thanks, I dropped a few filters for drivers between 11 and 13" less than $300 and a few options turned up aside from the one I was already looking at:

Tymphany P-835017 XXLS-12"
SB Acoustics SB34SWNRX-S75-6
SEAS LOTUS SUBWOOFER L0020-04S ( SW300/1 )
Scan Speak Discovery 30W/4558T00
Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12"
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12"
Dayton Audio UM12-22 12"

As much as I would avoid paying the premium for those dayton drivers, if they offer a big step up in performance I'll go there, whatever gets the job done!

AGAIN big thanks!

When I get a chance later I'll play with some of these in winisd to see how my finding match your recommendation, maybe I'll better understand what to aim for.

 

[Pogre]

Bump @TLS Guy! I'm curious about Marty's new driver selections!

 

[marticus]

Bump @TLS Guy! I'm curious about Marty's new driver selections!

Haha No rush, I didn't have time to look myself yet either between work and other commitments and I don't know that I'll have much time before the weekend, but I'm interested to see what winisd spits out..

 

[ryanosaur]

Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12"

This. I would consider this the minimum safe driver to bank on. @TLS Guy has used it and knows it well, and others here have used some of the different sizes in this reference line. I haven't heard a bad thing about them. I was looking at the 15" version of this driver, but opted for another company that makes Drivers here in the US, Stereo Integrity.
Regardless, I get where you are coming from, but there are performance characteristics that one needs in a Driver, and some of the other products will likely come up short in output, extension, or some other manner. Mind, I am aware that Seas and Scan Speak make some great drivers: it is important to keep in mind that their better gear does come with a ticket to match. (Take for example the Seas L26ROY, or the 13" Revelator as Sub Drivers.)
The argument has been made many times, but setting yourself up for success instead of taking the chance on something that might not perform to the expectation is worth it. We aren't trying to sell you on the most expensive gear, after all, just what we know will deliver!

 

[marticus]

This. I would consider this the minimum safe driver to bank on. @TLS Guy has used it and knows it well, and others here have used some of the different sizes in this reference line. I haven't heard a bad thing about them. I was looking at the 15" version of this driver, but opted for another company that makes Drivers here in the US, Stereo Integrity.
Regardless, I get where you are coming from, but there are performance characteristics that one needs in a Driver, and some of the other products will likely come up short in output, extension, or some other manner. Mind, I am aware that Seas and Scan Speak make some great drivers: it is important to keep in mind that their better gear does come with a ticket to match. (Take for example the Seas L26ROY, or the 13" Revelator as Sub Drivers.)
The argument has been made many times, but setting yourself up for success instead of taking the chance on something that might not perform to the expectation is worth it. We aren't trying to sell you on the most expensive gear, after all, just what we know will deliver!

Thanks for the feedback, I understand entirely, better to pay the extra now than be dissapointed later. If the dayton drivers are what's needed, then that's what I'll go with. Even if I'm grumbling about the markup the whole time .
They are en extremely well known quantity and there's a lot of build out there with them. So lots of inspiration out there

 

[Pogre]

Thanks for the feedback, I understand entirely, better to pay the extra now than be dissapointed later.

That is so true. I went smaller and cheaper at first to save a few bucks on subwoofage, was dissatisfied and ended up spending more than if I'd just gone with the larger more powerful subs to begin with. That's why I've become one of AH's head cheerleaders for adequate subwoofage, I lived it, lol. Good, clean effortless bass is so often overlooked in planning audio systems and it has a much larger impact than most realize. Once you experience it, you totally get it.

 

[marticus]

That is so true. I went smaller and cheaper at first to save a few bucks on subwoofage, was dissatisfied and ended up spending more than if I'd just gone with the larger more powerful subs to begin with. That's why I've become one of AH's head cheerleaders for adequate subwoofage, I lived it, lol. Good, clean effortless bass is so often overlooked in planning audio systems and it has a much larger impact than most realize. Once you experience it, you totally get it.

Yep I'm living that now, this sub I have wasn't expensive, but deep down I knew I should have just waited for something better.

Six months down the road here we are planning the next upgrade.

 

[Verdinut]

This. I would consider this the minimum safe driver to bank on. @TLS Guy has used it and knows it well, and others here have used some of the different sizes in this reference line. I haven't heard a bad thing about them. I was looking at the 15" version of this driver, but opted for another company that makes Drivers here in the US, Stereo Integrity.
Regardless, I get where you are coming from, but there are performance characteristics that one needs in a Driver, and some of the other products will likely come up short in output, extension, or some other manner. Mind, I am aware that Seas and Scan Speak make some great drivers: it is important to keep in mind that their better gear does come with a ticket to match. (Take for example the Seas L26ROY, or the 13" Revelator as Sub Drivers.)
The argument has been made many times, but setting yourself up for success instead of taking the chance on something that might not perform to the expectation is worth it. We aren't trying to sell you on the most expensive gear, after all, just what we know will deliver!

Yes, this RSS315-HF4 is an excellent performer. I have used its 8 ohm equivalent for a pair of 3-way speaker cabinets. It has a very smooth frequency response. In a 3.25 cf net volume box, I got an F3 at 25 Hz with a 22 Hz tuning frequency. But we can get even a slightly better LF performance using a bigger cabinet.

This is the 3-way enclosure which I built several years ago:

 

[marticus]

Yes, this RSS315-HF4 is an excellent performer. I have used it for a pair of 3-way speaker cabinets. It has a very smooth frequency response. In a 3.25 cf net volume box, I got an F3 at 25 Hz with a 22 Hz tuning frequency. But we can get even a slightly better LF performance using a bigger cabinet.

This is the 3-way enclosure which I built several years ago:

View attachment 50787

That looks like an awesome build! It sounds like these might be a winner then, I think I'll still play with them all in winisd I enjoy learning new skills and it's a good way to practice.

I still need to get my head around size vs tuning frequency and understanding realistic limits as the software doesn't give restrictions it just throws up a response graph (as far as I've seen)

 

[Verdinut]

Yes, this RSS315-HF4 is an excellent performer. I have used it for a pair of 3-way speaker cabinets. It has a very smooth frequency response. In a 3.25 cf net volume box, I got an F3 at 25 Hz with a 22 Hz tuning frequency. But we can get even a slightly better LF performance using a bigger cabinet.

This is the 3-way enclosure which I built several years ago:

View attachment 50787

These are the impedance and phase angle curves for the above 3-way loudspeaker enclosure. Actually, the sub used has a nominal 8 ohm impedance: