DTS Neural X sends all the bass to center channel

[Steegil]

I prefer the clarity of Neural X vs Dolby Surround but Neural X sends most of the bass to the center channel instead of the L/R channels. I have 5.2.4 system: Denon avr x-3700h for receiver, klipsch rp-6000f floorstanding, klipsch rp-404c center channel, klipsch r-51m for surrounds, SVS prime elevation for height channels and r-120sw for subs. I also have an Outlaw model 5000X amplifier that powers my floors speakers. My height speakers are powered by the receiver. All of my speakers are crossed over at 100hz. I am using the center spread function in Dolby Surround and LFE + Main for bass. What can I do to send the bass to the L/R channels in Neural X mode?

 

[lovinthehd]

How about setting your speakers to small and just LFE instead of LFE + Main? Dolby's center spread won't mean much in DTS land....let alone much control on how the particular matrixing works. This preference for upmixing is based on what signal(s) particularly?

 

[Steegil]

How about setting your speakers to small and just LFE instead of LFE + Main? Dolby's center spread won't mean much in DTS land....let alone much control on how the particular matrixing works. This preference for upmixing is based on what signal(s) particularly?

I noticed that when I am watching a movie in Dolby Surround I have a hard time hearing the conversation especially in the quiet scenes. When I switch to Neural X the sound becomes so much clearer, crisp and amplified that I have to lower the volume for the same scene. I like listening to music in Dolby Surround because I get the effect of the double bass from the front speakers but in Neural X the bass is redirected to the center and it doesn't sound as good as the Dolby Surround. I will try your suggestion and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Trebdp83]

The LFE+Main setting isn’t working quite the way you describe. That setting duplicates the bass signal being sent to the fronts and sends it to the sub along with any LFE the sub is already handling.

I agree with Small speaker settings suggestion. It refers to the frequency range of the speaker more than its physical size. I’d go with all Small, 80hz crossover for all to start and 120hz LPF for the sub with LFE, not LFE+Main.

I have had similar results with dialogue on non atmos tracks and use DTS. Dolby Surround with Center Spread ON is great for two channel music. DTS, not so much. Turn Center Spread OFF for movies and TV. Your dialogue needs to be centered, not spread out so it can move from side to side across the front when it is supposed to do so.

 

[Pandaman617]

Completely agree with my esteemed colleagues, you do not want LFE+Main under any circumstances. I’ve ran both Polk Audio LSI-25’s as well as a variety of Def Tech BP and ST speakers including their 15” in tower sub models and even than I was crossing my mains over at 40-60hz. Your subwoofers have the sole purpose of playing back a relatively small spectrum of sound and have the advantage of not only using voice coils, amplifiers and cabinets that were engineered with low frequency playback in mind but they can also be used in a variety of locations that your mains cannot. Even with a 500 watt monoblock your towers won’t come close to the sound pressure level your subs can output at 35Hz. In terms of crossovers starting at 80hz ideal but don’t be too concerned if 120hz sounds better to you or 100hz. Depending on my speaker setup I’ve found that 120hz gives me far more impact and overall enjoyment during movies even though the mains and center I was using at that point in time had no issues getting down to 40hz. In regards to Neural X, I’ve found it’s very aggressive when upmixing 5.1/7.1 native material. I’ve used it at times in specific Xbox Series X games and had great results while other games it uses my height channels for information that should clearly be in the bed level. I did notice on a few streaming apps the vocal clarity did seem a bit better using Neural X but from what I recall the source material wasn’t that the best to begin with

 

[Steegil]

The LFE+Main setting isn’t working quite the way you describe. That setting duplicates the bass signal being sent to the fronts and sends it to the sub along with any LFE the sub is already handling.

I agree with Small speaker settings suggestion. It refers to the frequency range of the speaker more than its physical size. I’d go with all Small, 80hz crossover for all to start and 120hz LPF for the sub with LFE, not LFE+Main.

I have had similar results with dialogue on non atmos tracks and use DTS. Dolby Surround with Center Spread ON is great for two channel music. DTS, not so much. Turn Center Spread OFF for movies and TV. Your dialogue needs to be centered, not spread out so it can move from side to side across the front when it is supposed to do so.

Checked my settings and all of my speakers were set to small except for my towers so I switched them to small. I also switched from LFE+MAIN to LFE only, turned off center spread and it made a great difference. While I was checking my settings I also noticed that cinema EQ was off but I swear I had it turned on before so that could have been part of the problem also.

You mentioned that center spread is good for 2 channel music, can you elaborate on that? What is considered 2 channel music? When I listen to music I use Apple Music and I stream it from my Ipad to the receiver. Is that considered 2 channel music? I also noticed that streaming it to my Apple tv instead of the receiver directly makes a difference in the sound.

Thanks a lot for the help.

 

[lovinthehd]

Most music is recorded and available in 2ch (often called "stereo"). Apple does have some Atmos multich offerings, tho.

What kind of difference in sound? Likely just level but could depend on audio settings perhaps. Do you use Audyssey DynamicEQ? How about Dynamic Volume?

 

[Steegil]

Completely agree with my esteemed colleagues, you do not want LFE+Main under any circumstances. I’ve ran both Polk Audio LSI-25’s as well as a variety of Def Tech BP and ST speakers including their 15” in tower sub models and even than I was crossing my mains over at 40-60hz. Your subwoofers have the sole purpose of playing back a relatively small spectrum of sound and have the advantage of not only using voice coils, amplifiers and cabinets that were engineered with low frequency playback in mind but they can also be used in a variety of locations that your mains cannot. Even with a 500 watt monoblock your towers won’t come close to the sound pressure level your subs can output at 35Hz. In terms of crossovers starting at 80hz ideal but don’t be too concerned if 120hz sounds better to you or 100hz. Depending on my speaker setup I’ve found that 120hz gives me far more impact and overall enjoyment during movies even though the mains and center I was using at that point in time had no issues getting down to 40hz. In regards to Neural X, I’ve found it’s very aggressive when upmixing 5.1/7.1 native material. I’ve used it at times in specific Xbox Series X games and had great results while other games it uses my height channels for information that should clearly be in the bed level. I did notice on a few streaming apps the vocal clarity did seem a bit better using Neural X but from what I recall the source material wasn’t that the best to begin with

I will play with the crossover settings to see which one gives me the best result. So far I still have them set at 100 hz.Neural X still sounds better to me than Dolby so I will keep using it.

Thank you for the help!

 

[Steegil]

Most music is recorded and available in 2ch (often called "stereo"). Apple does have some Atmos multich offerings, tho.

What kind of difference in sound? Likely just level but could depend on audio settings perhaps. Do you use Audyssey DynamicEQ? How about Dynamic Volume?

I usually listen to the lossless music on Apple Music. Is that considered 2 channel? The difference I noticed when streaming to the apple tv is higher db level. I do use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume(Medium).

 

[Trebdp83]

So, despite what some think, Airplay 2 sounds great when sending music to a receiver equipped with it. However, Airplay 2 does not support Dolby Atmos so any Spatial Audio(Dolby Atmos) tracks will be sent to the receiver in Stereo(two channel). When you use the Dolby Surround mode, the vocals get put into the center channel the way they would if watching a Stereo track of a movie or TV show. Center Spread literally spreads the vocals out so they come from all three up front. Multichannel Spatial Audio(Dolby Atmos) tracks will only play correctly from the Apple TV 4K. Any Spatial Audio(Dolby Atmos) tracks sent to it via Airplay will be converted to Two Channel Stereo. This is also the case when trying to Airplay a Spatial Audio(Dolby Atmos) track to a receiver. Some receivers allow Center Spread to be applied to an atmos track while other do not so one can try it out and see how it works on their own setup.

 

[Trebdp83]

The lossless and hi-res tracks in Apple Music are Stereo and the Spatial Audio tracks are in Dolby Atmos. The Apple TV 4K will play everything back in 24/48 and Airplay 2 will do it all at 16/44.1 regardless of the track's specs.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is odd. I use DTSnx and DSU for assorted things. And I’ve never noticed extra clarity or bass anomalies in switching between them.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Whatever the AVR Adyssey sets as your crossovers, leave it alone. Some folks do increase the center channel by 1-2 more dp for movies. What are the other internal audio adyssey settings have you set at. The internal settings can be played with for your listening.

 

[Trebdp83]

This is odd. I use DTSnx and DSU for assorted things. And I’ve never noticed extra clarity or bass anomalies in switching between them.

Can't speak to the bass thing, but dialogue is a bit louder and a bit clearer when I use DTS for PCM 2.0 and 5.1 signals compared to Dolby when switching back and forth between them. I never liked using Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume on my Denons. But, different settings with different AVR and speaker combos sound, well, differently than others. Sometimes AVRs spit out a crossover that doesn't sit well with thee listener. It's more of a message to them. "Hey, checked out your new speaks, they can go as low as..." I noticed recently that using a 40hz crossover meant the subs didn't come on when listening to some music in stereo mode at medium volume with the sub set to LFE. Going up to 60hz did the trick. Find your sweet spot and stay there. Or, change it as often as you like, just have fun.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Huh. I’ll try to pay more attention. I’ve just never really noticed that. I’m pretty good about that kind of thing but…
Totally agree about dynameq and DV. Both are useless. Although I have gone through phases of using DEQ.

 

[Steegil]

This is odd. I use DTSnx and DSU for assorted things. And I’ve never noticed extra clarity or bass anomalies in switching between them.

It probably had to do with my settings. Once I made the recommended changes the difference is less but still noticeable in my opinion.

 

[lovinthehd]

Whatever the AVR Adyssey sets as your crossovers, leave it alone. Some folks do increase the center channel by 1-2 more dp for movies. What are the other internal audio adyssey settings have you set at. The internal settings can be played with for your listening.

No reason to stick with avr suggestion of using bass management or not (small vs large), nor the avr suggested crossover particularly...Audyssey suggests when using subs to simply set speakers to small and start with an 80 hz crossover...but avr marketing guys had their own ideas....

 

[lovinthehd]

I usually listen to the lossless music on Apple Music. Is that considered 2 channel? The difference I noticed when streaming to the apple tv is higher db level. I do use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume(Medium).

I see no reason myself to use Dynamic Volume at all, but do like Dynamic EQ with appropriate RLO settings....