Time to continue the upgrades!

[latapx]

Over the last few years I have been upgrading my home theatre as budget has allowed. My current setup ( and how long I've had it) is as follows:

Anthem AVM60 - 2 years
Anthem MCA 50 - 8 years
Founder 100F - 2 months
Founder 90C - 2 months
Klipsch CDT-3800 C-II - 2 years
Velodyne SPL-12BV - 17 YEARS!!!

Guess who is on the chopping block!! There is actually nothing wrong with my Velodyne, it still works very well and despite a very large room (26'x18'x10' tall ceilings) and having to be placed in the middle of a wall instead of a corner, it manages. The addition of the Founder speakers has been a revelation compared to the Klipsch setup I had before, so overall, I am very happy. But couldn't it be better?? YES!

The last time i ran ARC, i noticed that the sub roll off is STEEP on the bottom end, which got me thinking its time to replace it with something that can dig deeper, although listening to the 100F's without the sub sounds at time like the sub is ON...they truly are amazing. After some research about room sizes (mine is VERY large and untreated) I've realized that I likely need either 2 subs with approximately the same specs as the Velodyne, or 1 much more capable sub to make a worthwhile difference. Alas, with the pandemic, and the fact that subs sound different depending on which room you place them, it seems like auditioning them is not happening...so I am here for advice. Below you get a taste of the room which is the Family room and kitchen in one open area.

As you can see, I'm limited on space on my display wall and as much as I'd love to move the sub into the corner, it'd move my TV up against the door and the center stage would move as well as the sweet spot which is currently my recliner! It seem like I'm on the fence and the 2 main manufacturers on my list are SVS and Paradigm...although I'm all ears to other suggestions. The Paradigm 1000SW or 2000SW would come in the same walnut finish as my Founder's which would be VERY pleasing to me, but I'm not going to choose looks over function at this point. In the current sub location i do have room for a large sub like a 2000SW or SB16-Ultra, but would that be enough "more" than what I have now? For the price of entry of a 2000SW, I could have 2 SB-4000 subs and place 1 where the Velodyne sits and then try and shoehorn the other one to the listener's right (there is a bar where I can stuff it in the corner). I'd love the low end extension of a ported sub, but the PB-4000 is 30" deep which wouldn't work in the subs current location unless if I went with something like a PC-4000 which has a smaller footprint.

Any thoughts/advice would be great...looking at SVS's site, it seems like all of their subs are going up in price soon.

Thanks!!

 

[shadyJ]

Over the last few years I have been upgrading my home theatre as budget has allowed. My current setup ( and how long I've had it) is as follows:

Anthem AVM60 - 2 years
Anthem MCA 50 - 8 years
Founder 100F - 2 months
Founder 90C - 2 months
Klipsch CDT-3800 C-II - 2 years
Velodyne SPL-12BV - 17 YEARS!!!

Guess who is on the chopping block!! There is actually nothing wrong with my Velodyne, it still works very well and despite a very large room (26'x18'x10' tall ceilings) and having to be placed in the middle of a wall instead of a corner, it manages. The addition of the Founder speakers has been a revelation compared to the Klipsch setup I had before, so overall, I am very happy. But couldn't it be better?? YES!

The last time i ran ARC, i noticed that the sub roll off is STEEP on the bottom end, which got me thinking its time to replace it with something that can dig deeper, although listening to the 100F's without the sub sounds at time like the sub is ON...they truly are amazing. After some research about room sizes (mine is VERY large and untreated) I've realized that I likely need either 2 subs with approximately the same specs as the Velodyne, or 1 much more capable sub to make a worthwhile difference. Alas, with the pandemic, and the fact that subs sound different depending on which room you place them, it seems like auditioning them is not happening...so I am here for advice. Below you get a taste of the room which is the Family room and kitchen in one open area.
View attachment 50462
View attachment 50463
View attachment 50464

As you can see, I'm limited on space on my display wall and as much as I'd love to move the sub into the corner, it'd move my TV up against the door and the center stage would move as well as the sweet spot which is currently my recliner! It seem like I'm on the fence and the 2 main manufacturers on my list are SVS and Paradigm...although I'm all ears to other suggestions. The Paradigm 1000SW or 2000SW would come in the same walnut finish as my Founder's which would be VERY pleasing to me, but I'm not going to choose looks over function at this point. In the current sub location i do have room for a large sub like a 2000SW or SB16-Ultra, but would that be enough "more" than what I have now? For the price of entry of a 2000SW, I could have 2 SB-4000 subs and place 1 where the Velodyne sits and then try and shoehorn the other one to the listener's right (there is a bar where I can stuff it in the corner). I'd love the low end extension of a ported sub, but the PB-4000 is 30" deep which wouldn't work in the subs current location unless if I went with something like a PC-4000 which has a smaller footprint.

Any thoughts/advice would be great...looking at SVS's site, it seems like all of their subs are going up in price soon.

Thanks!!

2 SB-4000s would be a really good option, better than a single SB-16 Ultra easily. That is probably how I would swing in your situation.


By the way, the left speaker is placed so close to the wall that you might consider putting some acoustic absorbers on that wall. That has to be creating a significant acoustic reflection since the other speaker has no lateral reflective surface. It's probably tilting the soundstage to the left a bit.

 

[Replicant 7]

Nice setup!! Plus you got some expert advice from Shady J to boot!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I definitely agree that an sb16 wouldn’t be the best choice. But IMO, a pair of PC4k’s would be pretty awesome. I MIGHT consider sealed if that was a suspended floor, which it looks like but I’m just not a fan of sealed subs… Plus the PC’s smaller footprint should prove helpful in placement, compared the the PB anyway.
Just about anything would be an upgrade thought imo. Also, I would consider rotating the layout if the room could possibly accommodate it. Even possibly putting the TV and stand etc in the bay window.

Edit: it does look like a concrete floor. So again, I’d vote against sealed. I have a similar sized listening space on concrete, and I think ported subs would really be better.

 

[Replicant 7]

I definitely agree that an sb16 wouldn’t be the best choice. But IMO, a pair of PC4k’s would be pretty awesome. I MIGHT consider sealed if that was a suspended floor, which it looks like but I’m just not a fan of sealed subs… Plus the PC’s smaller footprint should prove helpful in placement, compared the the PB anyway.
Just about anything would be an upgrade thought imo. Also, I would consider rotating the layout if the room could possibly accommodate it. Even possibly putting the TV and stand etc in the bay window.

Edit: it does look like a concrete floor. So again, I’d vote against sealed. I have a similar sized listening space on concrete, and I think ported subs would really be better.

Yeah, I can see putting TV in Bay Window. Would be able to open up his front mains better sound stage to start for sure. I saw that but didn't want to throw any shade on his setup cuz it is nice. Very clean look but he does have options for sure with implementing some changes to get a better sound stage.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, I can see putting TV in Bay Window. Would be able to open up his front mains better sound stage to start for sure. I saw that but didn't want to throw any shade on his setup cuz it is nice. Very clean look but he does have options for sure with implementing some changes to get a better sound stage.

Indeed. I was thinking about how to present that. it is a nice room indeed. I love the bicycles, and it looks inviting to me.
BUT!!! I can’t walk into a room and not try to figure out how I’d layout a system in it lol. I totally agree about opening up that stage. I think it would be transformative.
I wonder what the right wall looks like…..

 

[lovinthehd]

I like your bike decorations. I like the PC option too.

 

[latapx]

Thanks for the feedback so far folks. Although it is a large room, it is shared with the kitchen so there isn't a lot of available floor space. Just behind the couch are bar stools and a bar which is part of the kitchen counter. I considered all options when we moved in. If I flip the room 180, the couch blocks the door. I'm not a fan of the bay window getting blocked as I like it open to see the yard/landacaping...its soothing! Plus, there are already holes in the ceiling for surrounds and the exterior speaker cables are running into the house behind the entertainment center. I could shift the TV and speakers away from the corner to reduce reflections it is about 10" away at the moment. The floor is concrete with porcelain tile.
I hear the comments about opening the Soundstage...makes good sense. Although I like the symmetry of how it looks now, one of the considerations would be a PC-4000 or SB-4000 inside of each main speaker. That would push the TV to the right by 17" or so, and the right speaker to the right by 34". That would place the right speaker RIGHT by the door opening.

In either case, seems like it's a resounding 2 sub setup. Just have to consider which and where. I've always been a sealed sub fan (more cause of the music side of things) but A LOT of what we do as a family is movies so I understand the advantage and low end extension of a ported sub...and I do like low end. To run ARC I typically have to turn the Velodyne down to about 15% volume, then turn it up to 50% after adjustments are done.

Liking the ideas and dialogue...thanks guys/gals!!

 

[latapx]

So i kept reading subwoofer reviews and everyone kept mentioning Live Die Repeat: Edge of Tomorrow and how the opening scene has some serious low end grunt you should FEEL. Well, I played that the other day, and kept waiting for the low end grunt...crickets.
I then decided its time. The fact that SVS was raising their prices effective yesterday helped me persuade the Mrs. (I have to get it now or it'll be MORE!) and I ordered a PB-4000. Just one, as staying married is always the best option. It comes in on Thursday...but I'm currently on crutches post achilles tendon surgery so I don't know when I'll get to setup the behemoth. As for sub #2, it'll have to wait a bit, but I've identified an area under the bar (kitchen cabinets corner has an empty cavity) where I can cut an opening in the wall and recess another PB-4000 so that only the front end is exposed. Bonus is that it is a separate electrical circuit from where the rest of the equipment is.
In the meantime, I'm going to start reading up on room measurement software (i have the microphone included with the AVM60) to see if I can do pre and post pb4000 measurements.

Can't wait!

 

[latapx]

I finally got brave and enlisted the kids to help me unbox the PB-4000. It honestly was not as bad as I thought it'd be even though i got repeated "should you be doing that so soon after surgery" looks from the Mrs. I placed the PB-4000 where my existing sub was and backed it up to an inch from the door/wall. Without the grill on, it is pretty much flush with the front of the 100Fs. I really can't complain...it is a behemoth. At this time, I have not run any REW to adjust output from the PB-4000 and have not run ARC. I literally plugged it in and have been listening...it has been a revelation! Edge of Tomorrow pretty much brings the house down now. Everyone in the family has commented that they can feel the explosions, etc. We were watching "Taken" last night and some of the gun fights felt like I was at the range...you could feel each gun shot. I now need to make some time to work with REW and make adjustments as needed to the PB4K and then run ARC for the whole system as I've been running uncorrected for some time now...I wasn't happy with the previous corrections made and turned off the ARC corrections. It seemed like it dulled the sound down too much.

Once I upgrade the TV (it has a dark spot forming on the left side) the new TV will be larger and I'll either have to open the space between mains or raise the TV significantly...or a combination of both.

Also, someone had asked to see what the other side of the room looks like...its the kitchen.

 

[Eppie]

Placement can be tough in an open concept but I bet it still sounds pretty killer with those Founders and the PB-4000.

 

[latapx]

Placement can be tough in an open concept but I bet it still sounds pretty killer with those Founders and the PB-4000.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! And the 90C really makes a huge impact in movies. My previous center channel was garbage by comparison.

 

[Eppie]

ABSOLUTELY!!!! And the 90C really makes a huge impact in movies. My previous center channel was garbage by comparison.

I know what that is like. I started with a v2 Paradigm Studio CC to go with my v5 Studio 20's and when I finally got the matching v5 CC-590 it was night and day. I really like the way Paradigm voices their centres for dialogue.

 

[Pogre]

Smart man switching to the PB4000. That's a pretty killer system you got there!