Streamers! NAD blueOS vs Denon HEOS? TI vs ESS DACs?

[real_shark]

Matrix is like Topping in that they produce stellar well engineered products (see ASR reviews, all excellent). I purchased several of the Matrix products and at the time, connectivity and app problems resulted in me returning them to the US distributor (Power Holdings). I have settled on Spotify Premium and again, at the time, the Matrix products did not support Spotify Connect so that was a problem for me but not for those using other services. The point of this response is that if anything goes wrong with your ChiFi product you are in for frustration. You have to email support in China, the language barrier is a real issue, they are off for all sorts of holidays, and if there is a serious problem you have to send the unit back to China, shipping costs, etc etc. There is a recent thread re Topping on ASR that goes into this in more detail. Suffice it to say I'd strongly advise that you settle on a product that has US customer support and can be returned to a stateside repair facility if needed. And, just my opinion, but I think resale on these Chinese products is going to be poor, compared to something like Benchmark or NAD. The Matrix i review is at:

Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC & Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Matrix Audio Element i USB DAC and Ethernet/Wifi wireless streamer. It was kindly sent to me by the company and costs US $990. The Element i embodies the beautiful design language of other (newer) Matrix Audio products: The menus and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you very much for your insight.

Indeed this is the review that I read on ASR. Way more positive than the one for the Bluesound node.

To be honest, I am not the most sensible of the audiophiles and the kind of system I am coming from was not that good (even though it was better than average for non audiophile equipment) has been my reference for years.

What I now have is a pair of Wharfedale Evo 4.2 paired with an XTZ EDGE A2-300 (which also has a not so good review from ASR). When I use an xduoo xd-05 plus (again poorly reviewed by ASR) as a DAC/Preamp - The DAC is an AKM AK4490 - I am more than satisfied with the results.

The point is... Will I really be disatisfied with the sound when changing the xduoo for the Bluesound node N130?

Is there an alternative in the same price range that will make me significantly more satisfied?

RS.

 

[Trebdp83]

It's a question only you can answer after using different streamers. You may find they all sound the same and prefer the user friendliness of one over another.

 

[bombadil]

Thank you very much for your insight.

Indeed this is the review that I read on ASR. Way more positive than the one for the Bluesound node.

To be honest, I am not the most sensible of the audiophiles and the kind of system I am coming from (even though it was better than average for non audiophile equipment) has been my reference for years.

What I now have is a pair of Wharfedale Evo 4.2 paired with an XTZ EDGE A2-300 (which also has a not so good review from ASR). When I use an xduoo xd-05 plus (again poorly reviewed by ASR) as a DAC/Preamp - The DAC is an AKM AK4490 - I am more than satisfied with the results.

The point is... Will I really be disatisfied with the sound when changing the xduoo the Bluesound node N130?

Is there an alternative in the same price range that will make me significantly more satisfied?

RS.

I second the thoughts of @Trebdp83
Purchase a Node from AMZ and try it for a few weeks, free return if you don't like it. I think you'll keep it. I'm a fan of ASR but keep in mind they are often hard on products that don't have great specs, even when the shortcomings are not audible. Also, keep in mind that the DAC output of the Node and many others may not be stellar (hence the harsh review on ASR), but if you're using the digital output then they are all just "bridges" transferring digital info and have ZERO influence on fidelity.

 

[Trebdp83]

Great point, and one that doesn't get asked and clarified often. When one asks about certain streamers, they need to also indicate if they are going to use a digital connection and bypass any DACS. Then, the internal DAC of the device is a non issue. In this case, the DAC is of concern but not always for everybody. Being a cheapskate, I'd start with the most inexpensive device that meets my criteria. If it isn't up to the task, move on to the next one.

 

[real_shark]

Great point, and one that doesn't get asked and clarified often. When one asks about certain streamers, they need to also indicate if they are going to use a digital connection and bypass any DACS. Then, the internal DAC of the device is a non issue. In this case, the DAC is of concern but not always for everybody. Being a cheapskate, I'd start with the most inexpensive device that meets my criteria. If it isn't up to the task, move on to the next one.

I could indeed go with the Arylic if I decide to skip the Tidal connect requirement but... I will probably go for the Bluesound Node anyway. If in the future my ears cannot stand it I believe it will be more a subject of adding a better DAC.

I believe that choosing the right device with the right software and connectivity is what I should do now, I won't be able to change that later without completely changing the streamer/DAC/Preamp combo. Most likely the DAC in the Node is absolutely ok for me and the rest of my gear.

If I had another option, like HEOS or MusicCast, that would provide a seamless user experience, I would consider it, but I have found none.

Or if I had a good option in the same price range that at least supports Tidal connect, then I would just not care much of the quality of the software and just use the Tidal app to control everything. This can be done with the Matrix Audio Digi-i for instance, with a better DAC but at almost double the price of the Node, with a fair amount of missing features that I like, apparently worse support and worse resale value... If I want a better DAC, I believe I can still buy quite a good one at less than the premium I have to pay for the Digi-i... And I can decide later instead of spend now.

This is the third time I give a deep thought to the streamer... And every time I come to the conclusion that the best option in my case is the Node.

Let´s see! Too many options.

 

[Trebdp83]

Sounds like the Node meets your needs. So, what about the shade?

 

[Trebdp83]

You know, with all of the talk about app support and DACs, I forgot about two features of the Node that really sell it. It has a sub pre out and eARC. Suppose you really like the sound but want a bit more bass. Easy, use sub pre out with a new powered sub. Say, wouldn’t TV viewing sound better with this new 2.1 setup? Make an ARC/eARC connection from the TV. You could pass the audio from any Smart TV apps. It will also pass audio from any devices connected directly to the TV. You may never use the features, but they are there for you if you decide to do so for a nice 2.1 system.

 

[bombadil]

You know, with all of the talk about app support and DACs, I forgot about two features of the Node that really sell it. It has a sub pre out and eARC. Suppose you really like the sound but want a bit more bass. Easy, use sub pre out with a new powered sub. Say, wouldn’t TV viewing sound better with this new 2.1 setup? Make an ARC/eARC connection from the TV. You could pass the audio from any Smart TV apps. It will also pass audio from any devices connected directly to the TV. You may never use the features, but they are there for you if you decide to do so for a nice 2.1 system.

The sub out is a major advantage of the Node/Powernode. What's especially useful is the HP filter in the Node and Powernode. Many all in ones do not include this feature (Cambridge EVO, Denon PMA-110). Using this feature means that the lower frequencies will not be sent to your mains (sparing them of the heavy lifting); they will be sent to your subwoofer at the crossover point of your choosing. While some folks like to have their mains run full range with a sub I believe it's the minority view and makes the difficult job of integrating your sub even more difficult IMO.

There are some details that can be confusing when using the sub out on your node/powernode. Here is a summary of the process from Bluesound support:

"Subwoofer (On/Off) - turning this setting ON will apply a high pass filter to the RCA and Speaker Out (where applicable) based on the crossover set. Leaving this in the OFF position will send full range out of the RCA and Speaker Outs. Note that the SUBW OUT output will not be affected by this (this output will always be active) nor will it set a filter on the Digital Outputs (applicable to NODE and VAULT only)


Crossover: this will allow you to adjust the crossover between 40Hz and 200Hz; anything below your set crossover will be sent out of the SUBW OUT of your player. If the Subwoofer switch is set to ON (as mentioned above), everything above this crossover will be filtered out and sent to the RCA and Speaker Outputs.


Otherwise than that the SUBW OUT on your POWERNODE/NODE will output much like the RCA outs on the NODE (briefly speaking ofc)."

Cheers

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, I've read that about the Node sub pre out and I think it is brilliant the more I think about it. With many AVRs, using Full Band speakers and setting them at Large/Full Band in speaker settings means having to turn on LFE+Main in Denon/Marantz, Double Bass in Onkyo/Pioneer and Extra Bass in Yamaha to get a signal to the subwoofer. The Node sub pre out sends a signal out to the sub even when not applying HP to mains. I think the setting can be confusing and HP ON/HP OFF might make more sense than ON/OFF.

 

[real_shark]

To be honest, one of the things that has me surprised about these streamers is prices.

We are now talking about a very valid selling point of the node, which is the connectivity both with a subwoofer pre-out and an eARC connector.

The Node retails at 545€ and apparently does not have such great reviews according to audiophiles.

10 years ago I bought my Yamaha RX-V673 for 450€. This guy is also a streamer (of its time), DAC and pre-amp but on top of that it is a 7.2 channel multi zone amp. It also comes with an app (of the time), has not one but two highly configurable subwoofer pre-outs, plenty of HDMI connectors, including ARC. I will not mention all the features of the Yamaha but the node is a brick at its side.

What makes the Node and similar products so outrageously expensive in comparison?

Is the DAC in the Node so much better (and way more expensive to design or produce)? Is it the software? Marketing? Inflation? Are we paying for the mansions and Bentleys of someone?

KRs,
RS.

 

[PENG]

Is the DAC in the Node so much better (and way more expensive to design or produce)? Is it the software? Marketing? Inflation? Are we paying for the mansions and Bentleys of someone?

KRs,
RS.

Do you know which DAC IC they use? There are no info about the DAC on their website other than:

"High-end DAC technology"

Native Sampling Rates
32 - 192 kHz
Bit Depths
16 - 24
Performance
SNR - 110dBA
Distortion, THD+N - 0.005%
DAC
32-Bit, 192kHz

If you look at the specs, such as THD+N - 0.005%, that's not "high-end DA" territory at all, even something like a Denon AVR-X3600H (that uses DAC ICs with average specs, hardly "high end") can do THD+N- 0.001% and SNR - 110.5 dB and that's measured, not just spec!!

That being said, even though the Node 2i is not considered CD quality capable based on bench measurements, you have to ask yourself whether 0.005 or even 0.5% THD+N is audible to you? I bet most people can't, and all manufacturers likely know that so they have no fear, and know there is no need, may be even no point to spend money on a DAC chip that won't make a difference to most people.

So I believe the high prices(relatively) are mostly made possible due to their success in marketing. Bluesound, MQA, Bose, Audioquest's Dragon fly DACs, all are excellent in marketing, and they managed to make a lot of people believe their claims to the point they would actually "hear" the claimed benefits (with their eyes and brains). They will never know the truth unless they somehow have the opportunity to participate in controlled DBT comparisons that would most likely never happen.

 

[real_shark]

Do you know which DAC IC they use? There are no info about the DAC on their website other than:

"High-end DAC technology"

Native Sampling Rates
32 - 192 kHz
Bit Depths
16 - 24
Performance
SNR - 110dBA
Distortion, THD+N - 0.005%
DAC
32-Bit, 192kHz

If you look at the specs, such as THD+N - 0.005%, that's not "high-end DA" territory at all, even something like a Denon AVR-X3600H (that uses DAC ICs with average specs, hardly "high end") can do THD+N- 0.001% and SNR - 110.5 dB and that's measured, not just spec!!

That being said, even though the Node 2i is not considered CD quality capable based on bench measurements, you have to ask yourself whether 0.005 or even 0.5% THD+N is audible to you? I bet most people can't, and all manufacturers likely know that so they have no fear, and know there is no need, may be even no point to spend money on a DAC chip that won't make a difference to most people.

So I believe the high prices(relatively) are mostly made possible due to their success in marketing. Bluesound, MQA, Bose, Audioquest's Dragon fly DACs, all are excellent in marketing, and they managed to make a lot of people believe their claims to the point they would actually "hear" the claimed benefits (with their eyes and brains). They will never know the truth unless they somehow have the opportunity to participate in controlled DBT comparisons that would most likely never happen.

Yes. The dac of the Node N130 is the Texas Instruments PCM5242 (I added all DAC models for all the products I was considering in the original post in this thread).

And of course, I agree with you.

However in this case, I think I pay for the Software... I mean that the feature that makes me choose the Node is not a Hardware one, maybe if the Arylic would support Tidal Connect I

But if I get a nice Hardware (Streamer/DAC/Preamp combo) that just supports tidal connect and some basic network browsing function I would be happy with it!! I would just use the Tidal App and skip paying the premium.

But I find no alternative... Maybe if Yamaha started supporting Tidal Connect overnight...

I am now checking that there is also an Option on the Tidal app to do Chromecast... Which opens yet another door to investigate. Any insights?