What do you think of my planned speaker system?

[dustman]

What do you think of my planned system? These speakers seem to match up very well with a 1st order crossover of 220 and 3200 hz. Really love the midrange properties of the Tang Band bamboo cone full range drivers, already have 4 of the 3" version. Have heard great things about the Dayton 15" classic woofers. Have already owned the Dayton silk dome tweeters and loved them(aside from their propensity for collecting dust. Here is my parts list from parts express. Any reason that these components wont work well together or any concerns about the crossover frequencies?

 

[Verdinut]

What do you think of my planned system? These speakers seem to match up very well with a 1st order crossover of 220 and 3200 hz. Really love the midrange properties of the Tang Band bamboo cone full range drivers, already have 4 of the 3" version. Have heard great things about the Dayton 15" classic woofers. Have already owned the Dayton silk dome tweeters and loved them(aside from their propensity for collecting dust. Here is my parts list from parts express. Any reason that these components wont work well together or any concerns about the crossover frequencies?View attachment 50130

First order crossovers are not usually recommended.

I suggest that you verify with Parts-Express as they and Dayton have the same ownership. They will be pleased to advise you on their own products and most likely suggest a 2nd order crossover.

 

[warnerwh]

Unless you have a lot of experience designing speakers you could end up wasting a lot of time and money. It is not simple, period. You can easily end up with speakers that sound bad even using high quality drivers. There are forums where people may help you depending on your knowledge that you already have. Go here: https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Guide/BuildSpeaker/
You can buy kits or put together projects that are already proven and designed by expert speaker designers. There's a lot more to choosing crossover frequencies than you think but there are people who can help you. If you are a novice a 3 way speaker is way over your head.
I don't mean to sound condescending. I did the same exact thing you're trying to do. Fortunately I didn't spend any money before I learned how complicated speaker design is. My limit is diy subwoofers and even that is more involved than it at first appears or at least it was for me.

 

[TLS Guy]

What do you think of my planned system? These speakers seem to match up very well with a 1st order crossover of 220 and 3200 hz. Really love the midrange properties of the Tang Band bamboo cone full range drivers, already have 4 of the 3" version. Have heard great things about the Dayton 15" classic woofers. Have already owned the Dayton silk dome tweeters and loved them(aside from their propensity for collecting dust. Here is my parts list from parts express. Any reason that these components wont work well together or any concerns about the crossover frequencies?View attachment 50130

How did you arrive at those values? Did you model the bass alignment and the crossover? I suspect that design will likely blow the tweeter for a start.

If I get time tomorrow, I will try a model for you and see if you design has any hope. The first thing is to see if those drivers are even compatible.

Speaker design is a very exacting undertaking. Three ways in particular a very difficult to design.

 

[dustman]

I chose these particular speakers because they match well to each other in terms of amplitude at or near my original desired crossover points. The mid and tweeter will be crossed over two octaves above their resonant frequency. In addition, I accounted for any peaks in response in the upper frequency range of the woofer and mid, it appears that anything of consequence is at least two octave above the crossover point so should be well attenuated. I have prior experience building with previous iterations of all these drivers and was impressed with the sound of all of them, and think they would blend very well together. The first order crossover is not only cheaper and simpler, but has little chance of negatively impacting sound quality at moderate levels. I'm slightly concerned about intermodulation distortion, but don't believe that will be an issue unless I really crank it. I checked the values for the crossover components with several different online calculators and they all agreed with each other within a pretty narrow margin. This tweeter is pretty tough, the pair I had many years ago held up to much abuse with a 1st order crossover around 3khz, if I remember correctly. Given the high efficiency of all these drivers I believe they can reach a satisfactory volume level without undue strain. I appreciate the concern, but if I can wire a house I think I can manage a simple crossover. I am here to confirm that there is nothing in particular that I am failing to take into consideration. I understand the limitations of the 1st order crossover, so please don't draw me into that debate. Anyway, thanks for the responses, look forward to further feedback.

 

[Verdinut]

I chose these particular speakers because they match well to each other in terms of amplitude at or near my original desired crossover points. The mid and tweeter will be crossed over two octaves above their resonant frequency. In addition, I accounted for any peaks in response in the upper frequency range of the woofer and mid, it appears that anything of consequence is at least two octave above the crossover point so should be well attenuated. I have prior experience building with previous iterations of all these drivers and was impressed with the sound of all of them, and think they would blend very well together. The first order crossover is not only cheaper and simpler, but has little chance of negatively impacting sound quality at moderate levels. I'm slightly concerned about intermodulation distortion, but don't believe that will be an issue unless I really crank it. I checked the values for the crossover components with several different online calculators and they all agreed with each other within a pretty narrow margin. This tweeter is pretty tough, the pair I had many years ago held up to much abuse with a 1st order crossover around 3khz, if I remember correctly. Given the high efficiency of all these drivers I believe they can reach a satisfactory volume level without undue strain. I appreciate the concern, but if I can wire a house I think I can manage a simple crossover. I am here to confirm that there is nothing in particular that I am failing to take into consideration. I understand the limitations of the 1st order crossover, so please don't draw me into that debate. Anyway, thanks for the responses, look forward to further feedback.

You say:
"The first order crossover is not only cheaper and simpler, but has little chance of negatively impacting sound quality at moderate levels."

Why would a properly designed second order or third order crossover negatively impact the sound quality more than a 1st order one? If that was true, most speaker manufacturers would not use them. What you are saying is nonsense.

You say:
" but if I can wire a house I think I can manage a simple crossover"

A loudspeaker crossover and a house wiring have nothing in common for any convincing argument.

Then, if you are so sure about your project, why do you ask us for our opinion? Go ahead and proceed with your planned crossover.

 

[dustman]

You say:
"The first order crossover is not only cheaper and simpler, but has little chance of negatively impacting sound quality at moderate levels."

Why would a properly designed second order or third order crossover negatively impact the sound quality more than a 1st order one? If that was true, most speaker manufacturers would not use them. What you are saying is nonsense.

You say:
" but if I can wire a house I think I can manage a simple crossover"

A loudspeaker crossover and a house wiring have nothing in common for any convincing argument.

Then, if you are so sure about your project, why do you ask us for our opinion? Go ahead and proceed with your planned crossover.

Because I expected actual responses, not egotistical, pessimistic, condescending, non-answer garbage that seems to be the norm on forums these days. I already told you why I am asking but you didn't put that into quotes. You want to bash me to make you feel like you are better? I don't care how good you think you are at audio. I'm good at a great many things, but I don't spend my time belittling people, I work with them to accomplish things and teach what I can along the way. You see how that could actually be of benefit to someone?

Because 2nd and 3rd order crossovers DO change the properties of the electrical signals much more than a 1st order... I'm not making high end speakers, and am not going to drop hundreds on a stupid crossover. Manufacturers have agendas that have little to do with actual product quality, or if they actually have high quality products they are unreasonably expensive, either way, it comes down to profit. So if you have something to practical to say about my component selection then say it, otherwise go masturbate your ego somewhere else.

 

[Trell]

Because I expected actual responses, not egotistical, pessimistic, condescending, non-answer garbage that seems to be the norm on forums these days. I already told you why I am asking but you didn't put that into quotes. You want to bash me to make you feel like you are better? I don't care how good you think you are at audio. I'm good at a great many things, but I don't spend my time belittling people, I work with them to accomplish things and teach what I can along the way. You see how that could actually be of benefit to someone?

Because 2nd and 3rd order crossovers DO change the properties of the electrical signals much more than a 1st order... I'm not making high end speakers, and am not going to drop hundreds on a stupid crossover. Manufacturers have agendas that have little to do with actual product quality, or if they actually have high quality products they are unreasonably expensive, either way, it comes down to profit. So if you have something to practical to say about my component selection then say it, otherwise go masturbate your ego somewhere else.

Did you miss @TLS Guy kind and helpful reply to you? He's been modeling and building speakers for decades.

 

[Hetfield]

Oh wow, how did I miss this thread.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[dustman]

Thank you for pointing that out. Forgive me, just so tired of this.

 

[Pogre]

I have no clue what wiring a house and designing crossovers for audio have in common.

Because I expected actual responses, not egotistical, pessimistic, condescending, non-answer garbage that seems to be the norm on forums these days. I already told you why I am asking but you didn't put that into quotes. You want to bash me to make you feel like you are better? I don't care how good you think you are at audio. I'm good at a great many things, but I don't spend my time belittling people, I work with them to accomplish things and teach what I can along the way. You see how that could actually be of benefit to someone?

Your agressive reply seems a bit disproportionate to the post you quoted. Verdi was a bit blunt, but honestly I couldn't make a lot of sense out of it either. I've never seen any of the reasons for your choices given before, and had me scratching my head too. I've never wired a house before tho, so what do I know?

That said, TLS Guy has offered to model your components to see if they can work together, and I thought that was fairly generous of him. He has several decades of experience designing and building very high end speakers. If he runs the models and says it won't work I would take his word for it. He may be able to help you design a really nice sounding speaker tho.

 

[Pogre]

Thank you for pointing that out. Forgive me, just so tired of this.

You posted this while I was typing up my last reply and I missed it. It's all good man.

I'm curious to see what TLS will come up with. With any luck it can work, or worse case maybe just swapping a component or 2 can net a nice speaker.

 

[NINaudio]

am not going to drop hundreds on a stupid crossover.

There is no reason that a 2nd order crossover should cost hundreds more than a 1st order one. A few bucks more, sure, but definitely not hundreds more.

See what TLS says about those drivers and your current crossover plans.

 

[Verdinut]

Because I expected actual responses, not egotistical, pessimistic, condescending, non-answer garbage that seems to be the norm on forums these days. I already told you why I am asking but you didn't put that into quotes. You want to bash me to make you feel like you are better? I don't care how good you think you are at audio. I'm good at a great many things, but I don't spend my time belittling people, I work with them to accomplish things and teach what I can along the way. You see how that could actually be of benefit to someone?

Because 2nd and 3rd order crossovers DO change the properties of the electrical signals much more than a 1st order... I'm not making high end speakers, and am not going to drop hundreds on a stupid crossover. Manufacturers have agendas that have little to do with actual product quality, or if they actually have high quality products they are unreasonably expensive, either way, it comes down to profit. So if you have something to practical to say about my component selection then say it, otherwise go masturbate your ego somewhere else.

You definitely don't know much about speakers and crossovers.

I have been building speakers for many years and some were highly rated by audiophiles, and measured very well in tests.

In my designs, I've always used 2nd and also 3rd Order filters for some of them. I also have the appropriate speaker testing equipment. In my designs, I test each driver and design the crossover components and values based on those drivers' Thiele/Small parameters for best results. That is the fact and it has nothing to do with ego.

 

[ryanosaur]

 

[Trebdp83]

“Don’t knock masturbation, it’s sex with someone I love.”

 

[Pogre]

Someone needs to tell her she dropped some popcorn...

 

[NINaudio]

Someone needs to tell her she dropped some popcorn...

Don't worry, I'll get it...

 

[Trebdp83]

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for pointing that out. Forgive me, just so tired of this.

It is not helpful being tired of all this. Education is hard work.

I do have to comment that your approach is would require many, many yours of design work. There is a reason why only a few really expensive speakers have large woofers, a mid and a tweeter.

The reason is that you have to deal with a large front baffle, and that causes a lot of reflection from the mid, and especially the tweeter. The other problem is that you have to manage the transition frequency where the speaker becomes a monopole and transitions to an omni pole. This frequency becomes lower the wider the cabinet. This makes it more difficult to manage in the crossover.

The other problem is that you have a very low crossover point from the woofer to the mid. This is not a good idea with passive crossover networks. I never advise a passive crossover point below 350 Hz and preferably not below 400 Hz.

The problem with first order crossover is that the roll off is only 6db per octave, above and below the crossover point. That means that there is considerable overlap of the drivers. This is very hard to manage, and often impossible. The other point I would make, is that all crossovers are the sum of the electrical components and the acoustic responses of the drivers, including, but not limited, to their innate roll offs and their out of band responses. Most speakers usually roll off smoothly on the bottom end, but seldom on the high end. This is because of break up modes above the upper limit of the drivers, that results in horrible peaks. These have to be managed in the crossover design.

If you are set on that speaker, then the woofer should be in its own cabinet, for sure. The mid and tweeter need to be in a much narrower cabinet on top.

The next issue is, you have not considered the power bands of your drivers. One of those Tangband does not have enough power to handle the bandwidth, with a crossover that low. It would require two of those drivers per side. An MTM arrangement would be best with the tweeter between the two.

So I am going to advise you to design a speaker system with better smaller speakers, with a much narrower cabinet, and design and build separate subs. This is a much easier and generally a better and especially a more cost effective approach.

There is a reason there are few really full range speakers, and they cost an absolute fortune.

I have designed such, but it is a really formidable and expensive undertaking.

Designing a speaker correctly is many hours of work.

I am prepared to help you, but I would like you to consider something much easier, and for that matter much better, for you first build.