Multi Zone Surround and whole house audio

[Mswans2]

I’m building a new house and I’m starting to rough in speaker wire and cat 6 throughout the house for multi zone av. I’d like two have 6 zones total. Zone 1 & 2 would both be be capable of surround sound (5.1) from two different sources. Zones 3-6 would have 2 or 4 speakers depending on the size of the zone and would be capable of using the source from zones 1 or 2 or other sources i.e. zone 1 can watch tv in surround at the same time zone 2 watches a movie in surround at the same time zone 3 plays audio from zone 1 at the same time zone 4 plays music from Spotify etc etc.

Any suggestions on equipment?

Thanks!

 

[BMXTRIX]

For the money, it is better to use separate dedicated setups for each room. You didn't really say what was gong on in rooms 3-6 for video or if they are audio only.

One of the biggest problems is that many sources these days are HDMI only, and HDMI can't do stereo (zones 3-6) at the same time it does surround sound. So, you get one OR the other, but not both... without very specialized equipment.

If you are considering a distributed audio solution, then there are plenty of audio players with analog audio connections on them still, like the Sonos Port, or the Bluesound Node 2i. Those are great for your distributed audio.

For surround sound, you would need a separate AV receiver for each zone. Then you could split HDMI sources to both receivers, or you could just get separate sources for both receivers. Both are inexpensive enough solutions. I've done both inexpensive options as well as more expensive solutions. I have a downmixing matrix switch in my home that will take surround sound, downmix it to stereo, and give me both at the same time. It's about $3,000-$5,000 or more to provide a 8x8 solution which is only capable of 1080p video. It can do 4K as well, but will run more money, depending on the number of 4K/60 sources. Plus, it needs programming and controls and more, so it ends up as a pretty expensive solution... but it works.

I would just recommend separate systems and audio only sources shared among all zones, and perhaps a stereo HDMI music source shared among all zones.

 

[Mswans2]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

Zones 3 - 6 will be audio only in-ceiling speakers. As you mentioned I'd use 2 AVRs for surround in zones 1 & 2.

Do you have an opinion on using one of the streaming amps vs a wired solution like HTD Lync or a Russound controller with a power amp?

 

[BMXTRIX]

I have mixed feelings about all of it. I can deliver a completely custom Crestron system for less than or near the cost of the HTD system, so, that's the way I typically go. Using all Sonos, or getting a Denon system or similar, is certainly an alternative. I think those systems may take a source and allow it to be downmixed to stereo for other zones, but I couldn't swear by that. It may require the source to renegotiate the audio as a stereo source. I think HTD has a great solution that makes a lot of sense. It follows traditional wiring design and allows you to add multiple analog sources to your system easily. If you wire up a home like you are going to do a HTD system, then you can always put in Sonos units later on down the line if you change your mind.

 

[Mswans2]

For the money, it is better to use separate dedicated setups for each room. You didn't really say what was gong on in rooms 3-6 for video or if they are audio only.

One of the biggest problems is that many sources these days are HDMI only, and HDMI can't do stereo (zones 3-6) at the same time it does surround sound. So, you get one OR the other, but not both... without very specialized equipment.

If you are considering a distributed audio solution, then there are plenty of audio players with analog audio connections on them still, like the Sonos Port, or the Bluesound Node 2i. Those are great for your distributed audio.

For surround sound, you would need a separate AV receiver for each zone. Then you could split HDMI sources to both receivers, or you could just get separate sources for both receivers. Both are inexpensive enough solutions. I've done both inexpensive options as well as more expensive solutions. I have a downmixing matrix switch in my home that will take surround sound, downmix it to stereo, and give me both at the same time. It's about $3,000-$5,000 or more to provide a 8x8 solution which is only capable of 1080p video. It can do 4K as well, but will run more money, depending on the number of 4K/60 sources. Plus, it needs programming and controls and more, so it ends up as a pretty expensive solution... but it works.

I would just recommend separate systems and audio only sources shared among all zones, and perhaps a stereo HDMI music source shared among all zones.

Hey BMXTRIX this might be a silly question but I can’t for the life of me figure out the difference between an audio matrix switch and a multi zone controller. What’s the difference?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Hey BMXTRIX this might be a silly question but I can’t for the life of me figure out the difference between an audio matrix switch and a multi zone controller. What’s the difference?

An audio matrix switch does not have an integrated controller. A multi-zone controller typically has a audio matrix switch, a pre-amp for each zone, possibly integrated amplification for the zones, and a way to connect keypads, or a phone, for controlling the different zones.

So, a audio matrix switch can send audio to any number of outputs. So, let's say you have your phone plugged into input 1, and your wife's phone plugged into input 2. You can route the matrix to your office and the bedroom only by manually going to it and selecting the right buttons to make it switch to those locations. There will need to be a separate amplifier to power the speakers, and some sort of volume control separately to adjust volume. If your wife wants to listen in the bathroom, then she has to go to the matrix switch and route her connection to the bathroom, then have a way to adjust volume, etc. Same deal when turning things off.
Typically, someone with a audio matrix switch will have a separate controller and amplifier of some sort involved with the system.

I use Crestron throughout my home, so I have a controller, and my audio matrix has an integrated pre-amp, so it adjusts volume as well as performs switching. Then it all runs to amplifiers for the different rooms. I can control it from my phone, my iPad, from keypads in the rooms, or from remote controls I have.

 

[Mswans2]

Thank you for taking the time to respond! That’s helpful. Right now I’m running cat6, speaker wire, and conduit everywhere in my new house so that I have flexibility and because I can’t make up my mind on what I want to do.

I’m looking at Creston, control4, elan, etc for full automation. How’s creston when it comes to integrating other systems?

 

[BMXTRIX]

Thank you for taking the time to respond! That’s helpful. Right now I’m running cat6, speaker wire, and conduit everywhere in my new house so that I have flexibility and because I can’t make up my mind on what I want to do.

I’m looking at Creston, control4, elan, etc for full automation. How’s creston when it comes to integrating other systems?

Crestron's core foundation is the control of other systems. Over the years, they've developed a ton of their own stuff, and really have become the leader in some of these technologies. I tend to do a mix of what they have to offer and I buy a lot of used gear because they produce super durable products which last decades, and the stuff that hits the used market can be pennies on the dollar from new, but I then test, tweak, and warranty it before I sell it to my clients. But, it can save them thousands of dollars compared to new, and still be the same price, or less, than competing manufacturer's products which aren't at the same quality level.

For distributed audio, a RMC3 combined with a BIPAD8 and an amplifier, and whatever sources you want works great. They offer keypads, which I have installed in their single gang C2N-DBF12 keypads in a number of homes to provide local source/volume selection, but in reality, I find that the iPhone/iPad is the best way to control things as it gives far greater control options with visual feedback. Unfortunately, they must be custom programmed, which can cost a fair bit depending on how much complexity you may want. But, a simple 16-zone, audio-only setup is something that I basically have pre-canned and a good programmer should have it done in a few hours if it's network/phone control only.

 

[Mswans2]

I’ve been spending a lot of time looking into these systems and I’m heavily leaning towards Crestron. The home os seems to play nicely with other products from what I can tell. I also like their user interface options and I feel like I don’t have to go all in at first - I can add components for more automation over time pretty easily.

let me know what you think of this setup (this assumes all new equipment although I like the idea of going used)

6 zones total
zones 1-2 tv + surround
Zones 3 -6 audio only

zone 1
Nad 778 AVR (I like this system because you can swap out modules to upgrade hdmi and audio technologies over time)

zone 2
Nad 778 AVR

zone 3 -6
Bluesound streamer for each zone (the BluOS app looks great and I saw that crestron integrates BluOS well)

(1) multi zone power amp to power zones 3-6

(1) crestron home os controller (would this be the MC4-R?)

(2) 7” touchscreen interfaces

(4) keypads or 5” touchscreen interfaces or iPhone/IPad control

Eventually I’d like to swap out my light switches with lutron and use the radiora2 system and have crestron control it.

This is new construction so I was able to run cat6 and speaker wire everywhere

 

[BMXTRIX]

This sounds about right. This kind of falls into the wheelhouse of what Crestron does in general. Do you feel the need for four separate Bluesound units, one for each zone? Or do you want to toss in a BIPAD8 to just hook up a couple of Bluesound units to, then pick between the two of them to any zone in your home, or to send one of them to multiple zones? I would lean that direction as a used BIPAD8 is under a couple hundred bucks and should play nicely with things.

I also rarely use Crestron's wired panels and opt for the iPads instead. They are way less money and tend to work very well. But, you have options, and you have a LOT of options. There is no single right answer, and fortunately they offer the flexibility to give some serious options.

Be aware that you do need to work with a local integrator and will want to discuss with them as soon as possible to ensure that you have an idea of where they are coming from. If you've prewired your home, that's nice, but an integrator should take a look at the wiring. Rarely is wiring done well in homes when it comes to custom integration. Sometimes everyone thinks that cat-6 means the same things as Ethernet. That can really mess with a custom AV installation.

 

[panteragstk]

Be aware that you do need to work with a local integrator and will want to discuss with them as soon as possible to ensure that you have an idea of where they are coming from. If you've prewired your home, that's nice, but an integrator should take a look at the wiring. Rarely is wiring done well in homes when it comes to custom integration. Sometimes everyone thinks that cat-6 means the same things as Ethernet. That can really mess with a custom AV installation.

Can't agree more. My home builder did wiring, but you could tell it wasn't the guys full time job. Had to fix a lot of simple mistakes.

 

[Mswans2]

This sounds about right. This kind of falls into the wheelhouse of what Crestron does in general. Do you feel the need for four separate Bluesound units, one for each zone? Or do you want to toss in a BIPAD8 to just hook up a couple of Bluesound units to, then pick between the two of them to any zone in your home, or to send one of them to multiple zones? I would lean that direction as a used BIPAD8 is under a couple hundred bucks and should play nicely with things.

I also rarely use Crestron's wired panels and opt for the iPads instead. They are way less money and tend to work very well. But, you have options, and you have a LOT of options. There is no single right answer, and fortunately they offer the flexibility to give some serious options.

Be aware that you do need to work with a local integrator and will want to discuss with them as soon as possible to ensure that you have an idea of where they are coming from. If you've prewired your home, that's nice, but an integrator should take a look at the wiring. Rarely is wiring done well in homes when it comes to custom integration. Sometimes everyone thinks that cat-6 means the same things as Ethernet. That can really mess with a custom AV installation.

Spoke with a local integrator this week. He provided a budget for Crestron Home OS.$50k - $70k for multi room audio (speakers, amps, etc), 2 rooms with TVs and surround (TVs, AVRs, speakers, et, HVAC controls, a few touch panels with home os controls.

if I wanted to go custom crestron instead of home os he’d sub it out to another company. He doesn’t do programming. $10k - $15k to have custom programming instead of using home os.

I think I can purchase and install most of my own equipment but buy the $10-15k programming services and some touch pads for less than $50k or around that. I’d also have the flexibility of using other equipment than just home os compatible equipment.

Since the integrator doesn’t do the programming I’m not sure what’s really in it for him if I get my own gear and go the custom route. I’m guessing home os is great for integrators since you have to buy crestron compatible equipment and they can mark it up plus labor to install.

Am I think thinking about all this the right way?

 

[BMXTRIX]

It really depends on what all you want to do and at what level of integration. For me, I typically set up a Crestron distributed audio system so that the vast majority of the actual devices are controlled by the native app for that device. So, Bluesound devices should be controlled by the Bluesound app. This way, Crestron is just powering the room on/off and controlling volume within that room. Depending on what all is actually needed and what quality you want things to be at, you can spend a lot on the installation. But, the reality is that if all the wiring is in place, and properly available, you should speak honestly about what you are shooting for overall and you should speak to multiple integrators.

IMO, you do NOT want to work with a company that has to subcontract out the programming as that means that any small changes require a multi-step process. This is one of the things that have blown me away when I've worked with my clients who have Crestron. It would often take several trips to get programming right because the programmer is located in another state and can't give the customer specifically what they want and isn't there to actually test it. Unlike a local programmer who comes on site and is directly responsible for the code in your home and walks into your home to see how it all works. I would definitely look for a company that has a in-house programmer, or work with a programmer who is local to you.

 

[Mswans2]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated. I also asked the integrator about integrating devices that use z wave, zigbee, etc and I really didn’t get a good response. I realize that these arent native to crestron but I’ve read that there are programmers that have been able to integrate hubitat or other hubs that would allow crestron control of these other devices. I think I need to find someone that is an actual programmer.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated. I also asked the integrator about integrating devices that use z wave, zigbee, etc and I really didn’t get a good response. I realize that these arent native to crestron but I’ve read that there are programmers that have been able to integrate hubitat or other hubs that would allow crestron control of these other devices. I think I need to find someone that is an actual programmer.

Don't confuse 'Crestron native' and 'Crestron capable'. A big issue is that things like Amazon Alexa are 100% proprietary methods of control. They are not open in any way whatsoever. Same with Google stuff. Things are built to use Alexa, but that is ALL they may happen to work with. Zigbee and Z-Wave have similar issues. They are closed protocols which make them very tough to integrate to. This is far different than devices which have open standards like Ethernet, RS232, and others. The use of closed protocols makes integration to certain devices relatively easy, but then you have to decide if you want a second layer of control, custom built, around Crestron, or if you just want to use the app that the developer spent tens of thousands of dollars on to make work really well from your phone/tablet?

There are some things which Crestron does relatively well. Control distributed audio and video is one of them. It can control your receiver easily, make sure your TV is on the right input, etc. Alexa sucks at this. But, when it comes to controlling your lights, it gets a bit murky. I'm a fan of things like what Lutron has to offer because they offer open control methods. Security can be tricky because of the... security required. But, do you really need security on a device that isn't your phone and the native app for your security system?

Things can get very expensive, very quickly, and you can end up with something very cool, but not all that practical in the real world. Or, you can get something that's not quite as cool, but is much less money, and offers just as much or more overall control.

I didn't bother integrating my Nest into my home AV system. Or my Plex server. I just control the Nest directly from the app, those few times I want to. And the Plex is controlled from Roku units, so why would I need to control it directly? My door lock? That is on my system. But, I don't stream cameras to my Crestron as I already have them on my phone in their own app.

Crestron really is capable of controlling a wide array of devices, but a bunch of newer devices are being designed without open standard protocols which they publish and this means that they are actually a very closed off product. If they were to publish their protocols, then Crestron would be more capable of controlling them. But, at some point, device selection starts to matter a great deal.

 

[panteragstk]

Crestron really is capable of controlling a wide array of devices, but a bunch of newer devices are being designed without open standard protocols which they publish and this means that they are actually a very closed off product. If they were to publish their protocols, then Crestron would be more capable of controlling them. But, at some point, device selection starts to matter a great deal.

This is a VERY important point when diving into HA. Some manufacturers (Nest, Harmony remotes) have had "open" api or protocols or whatever, but then close them or make a "breaking change". It doesn't happen all that often, but is very annoying when it does.

I do have zigbee and zwave devices, but those are the best for lights and such (unless you go with something like lutron, but then you're stuck with their switches) simply because I don't like wifi switches or devices that are "dumb" taking up space on my network.

Open and well documented APIs are the best for any HA system. I try to avoid anything closed off. Wyze is one that comes to mind and is very popular, but not flexible at all out of the box.

 

[Mswans2]

Don't confuse 'Crestron native' and 'Crestron capable'. A big issue is that things like Amazon Alexa are 100% proprietary methods of control. They are not open in any way whatsoever. Same with Google stuff. Things are built to use Alexa, but that is ALL they may happen to work with. Zigbee and Z-Wave have similar issues. They are closed protocols which make them very tough to integrate to. This is far different than devices which have open standards like Ethernet, RS232, and others. The use of closed protocols makes integration to certain devices relatively easy, but then you have to decide if you want a second layer of control, custom built, around Crestron, or if you just want to use the app that the developer spent tens of thousands of dollars on to make work really well from your phone/tablet?

There are some things which Crestron does relatively well. Control distributed audio and video is one of them. It can control your receiver easily, make sure your TV is on the right input, etc. Alexa sucks at this. But, when it comes to controlling your lights, it gets a bit murky. I'm a fan of things like what Lutron has to offer because they offer open control methods. Security can be tricky because of the... security required. But, do you really need security on a device that isn't your phone and the native app for your security system?

Things can get very expensive, very quickly, and you can end up with something very cool, but not all that practical in the real world. Or, you can get something that's not quite as cool, but is much less money, and offers just as much or more overall control.

I didn't bother integrating my Nest into my home AV system. Or my Plex server. I just control the Nest directly from the app, those few times I want to. And the Plex is controlled from Roku units, so why would I need to control it directly? My door lock? That is on my system. But, I don't stream cameras to my Crestron as I already have them on my phone in their own app.

Crestron really is capable of controlling a wide array of devices, but a bunch of newer devices are being designed without open standard protocols which they publish and this means that they are actually a very closed off product. If they were to publish their protocols, then Crestron would be more capable of controlling them. But, at some point, device selection starts to matter a great deal.

I had a great conversation with a crestron service provider today that does all their programming in-house. They usually work with integrators when something breaks or there is a unique request from the end user and code is required. While most people in the market for HA are going to wind up going to a dealer I think it could be valuable to start with the programmer. I’m going to provide him with a list of controls that’d like to have and equipment that I’d like to use. For example, he’s integrated hubitat with Crestron to have control of z wave and zigbee devices. He’ll be able to tell me what can be integrated and what won’t work. From there I’ll know what I need to purchase from a Crestron dealer and what I can buy myself or from an AV specialist. He brought some pretty cool ideas to the table that the dealers I’ve spoken with weren’t able to offer. There is obviously a market for home os and devices that natively work with Crestron but I want flexibility and I think starting with a programmer will help point me in the right direction with all of this.

 

[panteragstk]

I had a great conversation with a crestron service provider today that does all their programming in-house. They usually work with integrators when something breaks or there is a unique request from the end user and code is required. While most people in the market for HA are going to wind up going to a dealer I think it could be valuable to start with the programmer. I’m going to provide him with a list of controls that’d like to have and equipment that I’d like to use. For example, he’s integrated hubitat with Crestron to have control of z wave and zigbee devices. He’ll be able to tell me what can be integrated and what won’t work. From there I’ll know what I need to purchase from a Crestron dealer and what I can buy myself or from an AV specialist. He brought some pretty cool ideas to the table that the dealers I’ve spoken with weren’t able to offer. There is obviously a market for home os and devices that natively work with Crestron but I want flexibility and I think starting with a programmer will help point me in the right direction with all of this.

That sounds great.

My only advice is to test or find good reviews of the hubitat when it comes to speed. I say this because I've used those types of boxes in the past to get zwave and zigbee, but they ended up being too slow to respond to button pushes and the like.

I have no experience with that specific device, but just wanted to make you aware.

Native support is always preferred, but if that's the only solution Crestron has for zigbee and zwave, then I hope it works well for you.

EDIT: forgot to say, zwave and zigbee have both been great for me, but not without their headaches. I'm considering checking out Lutron since they've been at this for so long and have some interesting solutions.