Question about Power Watts to speakers

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Xterror81

Audiophyte
Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this has been asked before, but I figured I would list my common question with my setup for more accurate feedback. I consider myself a novice for Home Audio, but am wanting to learn more and maybe figure out sooner than later why my center speaker dialog isn't loud enough.

My setup: 5.2
Receiver/Amp: Yamaha TSR-7850 (Costco) - Rated Output Power (1kHz, 2ch driven) 110 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD)
Center Channel: Klipsch RP-250C - Power Handling (cont/peak)125W/500W
Front L/R : Klipsch R-28F - Power Handling (cont/peak) 150W/600W
Surround L/R : Infinity TSS-1100 - RMS Power Range (watts) up to 125W - ( got the 5.1 setup when Circuit City closed back in early 2000s)
Sub: 2x Klipsch R-12SW

First the question: Does running your speakers with a low power watt ruin them? I might have misunderstood a video I just watched, but I got the impression that running at low Power Watts causes "clipping" which in turn can ruin your speakers. I never thought about this, but I know I am running a lower P.Watts than my speakers can handle.

Second question: Will adding a 3 channel Power Amplifier with 150W+ Power Watts make a big difference? Specifically dialogue ( my dialogue seems lower volume than the rest even after messing with receiver settings)

I'll start saving up for the most budget 3 channel Powered Amplifier out there as I think you guys will tell me this will make a nice difference, lol.

Thanks in advance for any advice even if it doesn't have to do with my questions.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Welcome to Audioholics!

You are confused about those speaker power ratings. Klipsch gives two numbers, Sensitivity and Power Handling among other speaker ratings. Sensitivity is a measure of how loud the speaker is when fed a 1 Watt signal with a measuring microphone 1 meter away. And Power Handling is how much power the speaker can handle without overheating and failing. Don't confuse power handling with power requirement – they are not at all the same.

The RP-250C speaker is rated with a Sensitivity of 96 dB, and rated as handling 150W continuous or 600W power for brief peaks. 96 dB is very loud, even if Klipsch is exaggerating that value. You'll probably sit farther away than 1 meter, but a small amount of continuous power, under 10 watts, will drive these speakers quite loud.

The R-28F speakers have a sensitivity of 98 dB and power handling of 150W / 600W. These speakers will be a bit louder than your center, but otherwise, the same comments go for these speakers as for the center speaker.

Your Yamaha TSR-7850 is rated (as you mentioned above) at 110 W (8 ohms, 0.9% THD) if its measured at a single frequency of 1 kHz. Just below that on Yamaha's spec page is the so-called FTC rating (see below) of 95 W (8 ohms, 0.06% THD) if its measured over the full audio range of 20-20,000 Hz. Let's use that second rating of 95 Watts.

Your AVR should be easily able to drive all your speakers at reasonable listening levels, without clipping. All three of those Klipsch speakers are very sensitive and don't require much power to drive them quite loud. Yes, if you turn your AVR up past 11, you might reach the point where the receiver cannot provide more power, and it clips. But otherwise your fears in Question 1 don't apply. Question 2: Don't waste your money. First try your AVR alone. I'd be very surprised if you find it inadequate.

FYI:
That 2nd power rating is called the FTC or continuous rating because the Federal Trade Commission required all audio amps and receivers be rated like that. This way when you're shopping, it's much easier to compare the power of different receivers. Most people, if they want to cite just one power rating use the more conservative FTC rating.

Also note the two different total harmonic distortion (THD) values. The higher power of 110W produces 15 times more THD (0.9%) than with 95W (0.06%). It's debatable whether we really hear THD below 1%, but the lower the THD the better. Another reason to use the more conservative FTC rating.
 
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X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
Thanks for all the great info. It all makes sense. So I pretty much just need to mess with the Receiver settings to give my center channel more dB and the rest less dB so that I can hear the dialogue more clearly? Right now I have to turn up the volume very high IMO to be able to hear the dialogue clearly, but then the Front L/R get too loud on action scenes. I had a Klipsch R-52C and I thought replacing it with the RP-250C would make a big difference, but it did not.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Might also look into your center's placement to optimize audibility. I'd just perhaps raise the center level and leave the others alone, tho. You might also want to check out perhaps Yamaha's dynamic compression routine (YPAO Adaptive DRC?) to help with something like that.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
So I pretty much just need to mess with the Receiver settings to give my center channel more dB and the rest less dB so that I can hear the dialogue more clearly?
Yes. The values you got after running the automatic set up were only recommendations. Your seating and speaker locations also will matter. Do whatever you need with the center channel to make dialog clear and easily heard.

If I remember correctly (it's been a while), the individual channel settings in most AVRs allow a range of 12 dB, going from -6 dB to +6 dB. In my first system, I needed to make my center speaker more than 6 dB louder than my front left & right speakers. So I set those left & right speakers to -2 dB, and made the center +6 dB.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for all the great info. It all makes sense. So I pretty much just need to mess with the Receiver settings to give my center channel more dB and the rest less dB so that I can hear the dialogue more clearly? Right now I have to turn up the volume very high IMO to be able to hear the dialogue clearly, but then the Front L/R get too loud on action scenes. I had a Klipsch R-52C and I thought replacing it with the RP-250C would make a big difference, but it did not.
How well you hear dialog depends on several things, including any amount of hearing loss you may have. If you have had a hearing test, you can boost the affected frequencies in order to make them sound as loud as the rest, although this can make the sound unbearable for others if the adjustments are drastic. These settings are found in the AVR's Audio menu.
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
How well you hear dialog depends on several things, including any amount of hearing loss you may have. If you have had a hearing test, you can boost the affected frequencies in order to make them sound as loud as the rest, although this can make the sound unbearable for others if the adjustments are drastic. These settings are found in the AVR's Audio menu.
It may also sound wrong or even be uncomfortable or painful to compensate with EQ because the brain is already trying to compensate for the physical hearing loss.
(No reason not to try, each individual is different and reacts differently, it may work or not)


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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It may also sound wrong or even be uncomfortable or painful to compensate with EQ because the brain is already trying to compensate for the physical hearing loss.
(No reason not to try, each individual is different and reacts differently, it may work or not)


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Depends on the loss, severity and its mechanism- nerve deafness caused by environmental noise or sometimes, infections- the brain does compensate well to an extent but it can't work miracles.
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
Depends on the loss, severity and its mechanism- nerve deafness caused by environmental noise or sometimes, infections- the brain does compensate well to an extent but it can't work miracles.
Yepp


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X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
How well you hear dialog depends on several things, including any amount of hearing loss you may have. If you have had a hearing test, you can boost the affected frequencies in order to make them sound as loud as the rest, although this can make the sound unbearable for others if the adjustments are drastic. These settings are found in the AVR's Audio menu.
Thanks for the info. Fortunately it isn't because of any hearing loss yet, the whole family has the same issue with dialogue not being loud/clear enough when using the surround speakers vs built in TV ones.
 
X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
Yes. The values you got after running the automatic set up were only recommendations. Your seating and speaker locations also will matter. Do whatever you need with the center channel to make dialog clear and easily heard.

If I remember correctly (it's been a while), the individual channel settings in most AVRs allow a range of 12 dB, going from -6 dB to +6 dB. In my first system, I needed to make my center speaker more than 6 dB louder than my front left & right speakers. So I set those left & right speakers to -2 dB, and made the center +6 dB.


I think my first step this weekend will be to bump up the Center up a few dB and the rest down a bit and I will post an update. Thanks again for the info.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for the info. Fortunately it isn't because of any hearing loss yet, the whole family has the same issue with dialogue not being loud/clear enough when using the surround speakers vs built in TV ones.
Is the center recessed into a shelf? What you describe could be a placement issue. Could also be a damaged speaker (from trying to solve a diffraction issue with the volume knob/gain settings).
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic General
I think my first step this weekend will be to bump up the Center up a few dB and the rest down a bit and I will post an update. Thanks again for the info.
Start with only a dB or two and see if thats enough. Too big a difference will make things sound wrong on most content.

And as poster above wrote, how is your center situated?


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X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
Is the center recessed into a shelf? What you describe could be a placement issue. Could also be a damaged speaker (from trying to solve a diffraction issue with the volume knob/gain settings).
My speaker might be a little low, but I can’t put it under the Tv unless I mount the TV on the wall so it’s higher. Maybe I can elevate the front so it shoots up more.



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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
It looks like you have the center appropriately forward on the shelf. It is a bit lower than ideal, so aiming it up is a good idea, or putting it on the top shelf if you can swing it. The coffee table probably isn't doing you any acoustic favors, but overall it doesn't appear to be so compromised to result in the lack of clarity you describe. The horizontal m-t-m center will have some lobing off axis, but should be fine dead-ahead, certainly enough to rule out speaker damage and adjust channel levels appropriately.

Hopefully it's a simple level adjustment away. That center is in a much smaller cab, using smaller drivers, so is likely quite a bit less sensitive than your L and R speakers, so it's trim level in your AVR settings will be correspondingly higher to compensate, as Swerd mentioned upthread. It wouldn't surprise me if it had to be set 6db higher relatve to your mains.

It looks like the base of the tv is about the same width as the speaker, so maybe you could move the center up to the top shelf and plop the tv on it, if only temporarily.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Might also look into your center's placement to optimize audibility. I'd just perhaps raise the center level and leave the others alone, tho. You might also want to check out perhaps Yamaha's dynamic compression routine (YPAO Adaptive DRC?) to help with something like that.
This is what I was going to bring up as well. More often than not, especially with center channels, the issue tends to be poor placement. Ideally the tweeter should be ear height and you don't want to stuff it into a cubby hole. If you can't hit ear height then angling up or down can help too.

Most AVRs will allow you to adjust the volume for just the center channel also. Mine is positioned pretty close to ideal and sometimes I still have to bump it up for some movies.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I like the idea of putting the center on the top of the cabinet and putting the tv on it, think that would be a better placement, particularly in relation to the L/R....
 
X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
I like the idea of putting the center on the top of the cabinet and putting the tv on it, think that would be a better placement, particularly in relation to the L/R....
If i put the TV on top of the speaker, the speaker won’t be at the edge of the cabinet. Will that make it worse ?being towards the back and having a big part of the cabinet as a lip in front of the speaker? The TV will be too unstable if I push everything to the front edge. Going to try tilting the speaker up first where it’s at this weekend and then give you guys an update. Thanks for all the suggestions.


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If i put the TV on top of the speaker, the speaker won’t be at the edge of the cabinet. Will that make it worse ?being towards the back and having a big part of the cabinet as a lip in front of the speaker? The TV will be too unstable if I push everything to the front edge. Going to try tilting the speaker up first where it’s at this weekend and then give you guys an update. Thanks for all the suggestions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why would the tv be unstable if placed towards the front of the top of the cabinet? Does the entire cabinet pitch forward somehow? Or more about bumping into it or something along those lines? For speaker tilting little rubber door wedges can work great fwiw.
 
X

Xterror81

Audiophyte
Why would the tv be unstable if placed towards the front of the top of the cabinet? Does the entire cabinet pitch forward somehow? Or more about bumping into it or something along those lines? For speaker tilting little rubber door wedges can work great fwiw.
Yes 100% about bumping with kids and dogs lol. I’ll cry if I see my OLED bumped and it falling fwd so easily.


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