DISAPPOINTED WITH 2021 YAMAHA AVENTAGE DAC UPGRADE…

[PR0230]

CAPS FOR ME TO SEE, NOT SHOUTING.

DEAR GENE DELLASALLA.

IM WRITING TO VOICE AN OPINION ON YAMAHA’S “NEW” AVENTAGE OFFERINGS FOR 2021, AND HERE IS WHY… MY FOCUS IS ON THE DAC’S…
NONE OF THE DAC’S WERE UPGRADED…. 2021 IS A RE-PRESENTING OF THE EXISTING YAMAHA ESS LINEUP 9026PRO AND 9007.

ESS OFFERS THREE SABRE PRO CHIPS, THE ES9038PRO THE FLAGSHIP OF THE ESS LINE, ES9028PRO AND ES9026PRO…. I BELIEVE THE ES9038PRO SHOULD BE IN THE A8A FLAGSHIP YAMAHA RECEIVER… AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST 8 CHANNELS… THE ES9026PRO FOR THE SURROUND AND PRESENCE CHANNELS… THE A6A WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THE 3080, COULD HAVE THE ES9028PRO FOR THE 8 PRIMARY CHANNELS, AND THE 9026PRO FOR SECONDARY CHANNELS… THE A4A COULD HAVE A SINGLE ES9026PRO CHIP…

FROM A PURCHASER STAND POINT THE UPGRADE IN DAC CHIPS WOULD EASILY ENTICE SOMEONE TO MAKE AN AVENTAGE CHOICE, OR THE NEXT LEVEL AVENTAGE CHOICE… ALL AVENTAGE RECEIVERS WOULD HAVE THE PREMIER ESS PRO CHIPS…

AS IT STANDS NOW , THE YAMAHA A8A HAS THE LOWEST OF THE ESS SABRE PRO LINE… THE A4A DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A SABRE PRO CHIP, GOING WITH THE 8 CHANNEL 9007…. BOOOO…. HISS…. AND LAST AND LEAST THE A2A, NOT EVEN IN THE ESS LINEUP.

FROM A COST PERSPECTIVE, FROM WHAT I LOOKED UP, THE ESS9038PRO IS A 50 DOLLAR CHIP, PRUCHASED RETAIL AT A 100 CHIP QUANTITY…IM SURE YAMAHA PURCHASES THE CHIPS FOR EVEN LESS. THE ESS9026PRO IS A 20 DOLLAR CHIP…. I DONT SEE A 30 DOLLAR INCREASE IN COST TO BE PROHIBITIVE FOR A 3000.00 DOLLAR UNIT…

YAMAHA REALLY FELL SHOT FOR A 3 YEAR UPGRADE, AS STATED IN THEIR YOUTUBE VIDEO…. WHILE THEY HAVE INCLUDED A QUALCOMM PROCESSOR CHIP AND MADE OTHER IMPROVEMENTS, THE DAC’S WERE LEFT OUT…

 

[Hetfield]

That's a lot to go through, yikes.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

None of these DAC’s are going to make any difference in sound quality because they all have superb specs.

Are you going to hear a difference between THD of 0.0001% vs 0.00001% or SNR of 125dB vs 130dB?

No you are NOT. So why make a big deal about it?

Instead of stressing over INAUDIBLE specs that make absolutely no difference in sound quality, look at factors that ACTUALLY matter - features, reliability, compatibility, heat production, warranty (Yamaha Avantage is 5YR), Customer service, WiFi Remote and WiFi streaming apps that actually work 100% of the time, etc.

I mentioned recently in another thread about talking to Yamaha support and my clients also talked to Yamaha service a few times - these are cases where the clients actually were clueless or did silly things like forgot their AVR was unplugged. Now these were pharmacists and physicians who are pretty smart, but just did silly things.

But in all 3 cases, Yamaha EMAILED PRE-PAID FREE RETURN SHIPPING LABELS to my 3 clients. Now my 3 clients never actually returned their RX-A3080 (all 3 bought RX-A3080). The reason was because they eventually found out it was just their fault for being clueless. So all 3 cases were resolved easily.

THINGS THAT TRULY MATTERS, NOT INAUDIBLE SPECS.

 

[PENG]

CAPS FOR ME TO SEE, NOT SHOUTING.

DEAR GENE DELLASALLA.

IM WRITING TO VOICE AN OPINION ON YAMAHA’S “NEW” AVENTAGE OFFERINGS FOR 2021, AND HERE IS WHY… MY FOCUS IS ON THE DAC’S…
NONE OF THE DAC’S WERE UPGRADED…. 2021 IS A RE-PRESENTING OF THE EXISTING YAMAHA ESS LINEUP 9026PRO AND 9007.

ESS OFFERS THREE SABRE PRO CHIPS, THE ES9038PRO THE FLAGSHIP OF THE ESS LINE, ES9028PRO AND ES9026PRO…. I BELIEVE THE ES9038PRO SHOULD BE IN THE A8A FLAGSHIP YAMAHA RECEIVER… AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST 8 CHANNELS… THE ES9026PRO FOR THE SURROUND AND PRESENCE CHANNELS… THE A6A WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THE 3080, COULD HAVE THE ES9028PRO FOR THE 8 PRIMARY CHANNELS, AND THE 9026PRO FOR SECONDARY CHANNELS… THE A4A COULD HAVE A SINGLE ES9026PRO CHIP…

FROM A PURCHASER STAND POINT THE UPGRADE IN DAC CHIPS WOULD EASILY ENTICE SOMEONE TO MAKE AN AVENTAGE CHOICE, OR THE NEXT LEVEL AVENTAGE CHOICE… ALL AVENTAGE RECEIVERS WOULD HAVE THE PREMIER ESS PRO CHIPS…

AS IT STANDS NOW , THE YAMAHA A8A HAS THE LOWEST OF THE ESS SABRE PRO LINE… THE A4A DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A SABRE PRO CHIP, GOING WITH THE 8 CHANNEL 9007…. BOOOO…. HISS…. AND LAST AND LEAST THE A2A, NOT EVEN IN THE ESS LINEUP.

FROM A COST PERSPECTIVE, FROM WHAT I LOOKED UP, THE ESS9038PRO IS A 50 DOLLAR CHIP, PRUCHASED RETAIL AT A 100 CHIP QUANTITY…IM SURE YAMAHA PURCHASES THE CHIPS FOR EVEN LESS. THE ESS9026PRO IS A 20 DOLLAR CHIP…. I DONT SEE A 30 DOLLAR INCREASE IN COST TO BE PROHIBITIVE FOR A 3000.00 DOLLAR UNIT…

YAMAHA REALLY FELL SHOT FOR A 3 YEAR UPGRADE, AS STATED IN THEIR YOUTUBE VIDEO…. WHILE THEY HAVE INCLUDED A QUALCOMM PROCESSOR CHIP AND MADE OTHER IMPROVEMENTS, THE DAC’S WERE LEFT OUT…

You need two such chips for 7.2, 9.2 and 11.2. To be fair, Yamaha is quite generous in offering the much cheaper but still expensive ES9026Pro in their AVRs. Look at the boutique brands like Anthem, Arcam, and in many cases even some expensive integrated amps don't even use DAC chips comparable to the 9026Pro.

 

[lovinthehd]

Methinks you over emphasize the chip's details as far as overall implementation is concerned.

 

[MasterApex]

The fact that ESS offers 9038, 9036 and 9026 suggests that there may be discernable quality / differences.
Perhaps in other metric that is beyond total % distortion?
Maybe more audible with higher resolution recording with higher-end gears (amps, speakers)?

 

[lovinthehd]

The fact that ESS offers 9038, 9036 and 9026 suggests that there may be discernable quality / differences.
Perhaps in other metric that is beyond total % distortion?
Maybe more audible with higher resolution recording with higher-end gears (amps, speakers)?

Could also be largely bullshit....YMMV

 

[PR0230]

None of these DAC’s are going to make any difference in sound quality because they all have superb specs.

I did not state that there are or would be audible differeces…. Only that no DAC UPGRAGES, Were offered for this three year plan for a new AVENTAGE line.

Are you going to hear a difference between THD of 0.0001% vs 0.00001% or SNR of 125dB vs 130dB?

No you are NOT. So why make a big deal about it?

Instead of stressing over INAUDIBLE specs that make absolutely no difference in sound quality, look at factors that ACTUALLY matter - features, reliability, compatibility, heat production, warranty (Yamaha Avantage is 5YR), Customer service, WiFi Remote and WiFi streaming apps that actually work 100% of the time, etc.

DID NOT make a big deal or stress, very calm here… How bout you? Many things matter with sound quality… The DAC’S are just one… But for each receiver, yamaha offers different DAC’S , and for what reason?

I mentioned recently in another thread about talking to Yamaha support and my clients also talked to Yamaha service a few times - these are cases where the clients actually were clueless or did silly things like forgot their AVR was unplugged. Now these were pharmacists and physicians who are pretty smart, but just did silly things.

But in all 3 cases, Yamaha EMAILED PRE-PAID FREE RETURN SHIPPING LABELS to my 3 clients. Now my 3 clients never actually returned their RX-A3080 (all 3 bought RX-A3080). The reason was because they eventually found out it was just their fault for being clueless. So all 3 cases were resolved easily.

THINGS THAT TRULY MATTERS, NOT INAUDIBLE SPECS.

INAUDIBLE SPECS, are beyond, my expertise… And i never questioned Yamaha responsibilities… ARE there options that Yamaha could have exercised for New or different DAC’S YES…. They did not….

 

[PR0230]

CAPS FOR ME SEEING, NOT SHOUTING…

MY SOLE POINT IN OPENING THIS THREAD, WAS TO POINT OUT FOR ALL THE UPDATES THAT YAMAHA MADE FOR THE 2021 AVENTAGE LINE, DAC’S WERE NOT UPGRADED…. AND THEY COULD HAVE….

NOT QUESTIONING YAMAHA, OUR ABILITY TO HEAR THE DIFFERENCES, OR ANYTHING ELSE…

 

[M Code]

A couple of points about DACs...
Within the mass production process of a batch lot of DACs, there can/will be slight test measurements differences between similar units

• For the DACs that measure better, these are sorted out and put aside and ranked as premium pcs
• The DACs that measure better are sold @ higher prices as premium pcs
• A typical yield of the better measuring DACs within a production batch is about 5-10%

Even though certain DACs may measure better doesn't guarantee higher sonic performance.. There are other circuit design factors that affect sonic performance.
As todays' DACs are significantly improved for performance yields than earlier DACs just a few years back and are sold @ lower pricing..

Bottom line...
DACs are 1 of the marketing fluff features brands tend to push to try and substantiate their better sonic performance..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The fact that ESS offers 9038, 9036 and 9026 suggests that there may be discernable quality / differences.
Perhaps in other metric that is beyond total % distortion?
Maybe more audible with higher resolution recording with higher-end gears (amps, speakers)?

So what’s the difference between those DAC that you might be able to hear the difference ?

THD of 0.0001% vs 0.00001% and SNR of 125dB vs 130dB?

 

[Replicant 7]

Nothing is out to buy!!! Nothing! I check everyday!!

 

[ryanosaur]

I just don’t understand why everybody is in such a hurry to buy stuff that isn’t even going to function properly out of the box! Yamaha says the new AVRs will require a firmware update for the HDMI, and that’s not even supposed to be available until after they release the equipment.
I’m hoping it’s just a sick joke on their part.

Hell, from what I understand, Sound United isn’t even releasing anything this year! They are targeting a spring/summer 2022 release.

Consider also, Apple just announced potential shortages affecting their Sept/Oct releases of new iPhones and iPads. How is that going to play out for all other aspects of tech industry players, including our beloved audio?

What of AKM? It’s been about 9 mos since the fire and I haven’t heard a peep about them restarting any production…

Oh ya… and there’s still this silly little issue of a Pandemic that is snarling everything from Shipping and Production to Admin and CS.

Sorry to be so negative… but I would piggy bank the hell out of anything you can and splurge in Summer/Autumn 2022!
Frankly, if sh!ts not figured out by then… we’ve got much deeper and more pervasive issues to be concerned about.

Thank you.
*steps off soapbox
You may now return to your previously enjoyable thread.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just don’t understand why everybody is in such a hurry to buy stuff that isn’t even going to function properly out of the box! Yamaha says the new AVRs will require a firmware update for the HDMI, and that’s not even supposed to be available until after they release the equipment.
I’m hoping it’s just a sick joke on their part.

Hell, from what I understand, Sound United isn’t even releasing anything this year! They are targeting a spring/summer 2022 release.

Consider also, Apple just announced potential shortages affecting their Sept/Oct releases of new iPhones and iPads. How is that going to play out for all other aspects of tech industry players, including our beloved audio?

What of AKM? It’s been about 9 mos since the fire and I haven’t heard a peep about them restarting any production…

Oh ya… and there’s still this silly little issue of a Pandemic that is snarling everything from Shipping and Production to Admin and CS.

Sorry to be so negative… but I would piggy bank the hell out of anything you can and splurge in Summer/Autumn 2022!
Frankly, if sh!ts not figured out by then… we’ve got much deeper and more pervasive issues to be concerned about.

Thank you.
*steps off soapbox
You may now return to your previously enjoyable thread.

I was just thinking what if Yamaha had changed to a dac they couldn't now get due factory issues?

 

[ryanosaur]

I was just thinking what if Yamaha had changed to a dac they couldn't now get due factory issues?

I think OP said they are Sabre DACs. So, not AKM. But shortages are still affecting everybody. I can’t say but would guess that is a factor in their delay getting to market.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think OP said they are Sabre DACs. So, not AKM. But shortages are still affecting everybody. I can’t say but would guess that is a factor in their delay getting to market.

It was very hypothetical, but maybe AKM was a possibility and/or another dac factory having issues....come to think of it, didn't two different factories have issues? Altho I think the damage in the other was far less than AKM's).

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes, there was some other thing that happened… thought it was a second AKM site, but don’t recall.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, there was some other thing that happened… thought it was a second AKM site, but don’t recall.

Then again with supply issues in general this can still somewhat sneak in I'd think down the line....

 

[snakeeyes]

I drool over the new flagship AVRs but I don’t think I would go for the first year of a new model. Of course if I had to replace my gear after a failure then I might go for it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just don’t understand why everybody is in such a hurry to buy stuff that isn’t even going to function properly out of the box!

All the AVR’s both older year models and new upcoming models are backordered.

I am sure Mike would love to get his hands on even the poor old RX-A2080.