AV7706 vs CX-A5200 - Stereo DACs quality

[MasterApex]

Does anyone have experience or measurement compare between AV7706 DAC (AKM 4458) vs CX-A5200 (ESS9026Pro) ?

Asking in the context using this Pre-pro to accept digital out from Oppo BD105D for SACD stereo playback and wondering if they are as good Oppo internal DAC (ESS) ?

Thanks

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You're not going to hear a difference in sound when level matched.

But some people will claim to be able to hear a difference between THD of 0.01 vs 0.000000001%.

So depends on whom you ask.

I would get the CX-A5200.

 

[Movie2099]

You're not going to hear a difference in sound when level matched.

But some people will claim to be able to hear a difference between THD of 0.01 vs 0.000000001%.

So depends on whom you believe.

I would get the CX-A5200.

Being one that can hear the difference between THD of 0.01 vs 0.0000000000000000000001%, would have to conclude that the CX5200 is better. So my professional opinion for MasterApex would be to get the Yamaha.

 

[lovinthehd]

Does it really matter? You have the choices with either pre-pro to have the Oppo or the pre-pros do the conversion if you have them hooked up by both analog and hdmi and decide for yourself.

Being one that can hear the difference between THD of 0.01 vs 0.0000000000000000000001%, would have to conclude that the CX5200 is better. So my professional opinion for MasterApex would be to get the Yamaha.

You forgot to mention he needs those Fraudioquest wires to help hear the differences, too.....

 

[MasterApex]

Does it really matter? You have the choices with either pre-pro to have the Oppo or the pre-pros do the conversion if you have them hooked up by both analog and hdmi and decide for yourself.

To get analog stereo sounds:
A1) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo analog XLR out
A2) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 5200 does the analog conversion
B1) with AV7706, I am limited to Oppo analog RCA out
B2) with AV7706 , I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 7706 does the analog conversion

A1 is better than B1 due to XLR
A2 vs B2 is unknown

For SACD multichannel sound, I also have option for
B3) with AV7706, use Oppo 6ch analog out into AV7706 6ch direct analog.
In case oppo BD-105D DAC is better than Yamaha 5200

Therefore the question.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you're overthinking it. Doubt there's any audible differences you'll find with any combo, including using XLR vs rca (altho slightly better spec perhaps). You're still stuck with the lowest common denominator in the system being a limiting factor. DAC implementation is fairly mundane these days....

 

[MasterApex]

I would get the CX-A5200.

what made you favor 5200 over the newer 7706?

 

[TLS Guy]

To get analog stereo sounds:
A1) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo analog XLR out
A2) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 5200 does the analog conversion
B1) with AV7706, I am limited to Oppo analog RCA out
B2) with AV7706 , I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 7706 does the analog conversion

A1 is better than B1 due to XLR
A2 vs B2 is unknown

For SACD multichannel sound, I also have option for
B3) with AV7706, use Oppo 6ch analog out into AV7706 6ch direct analog.
In case oppo BD-105D DAC is better than Yamaha 5200

Therefore the question.

You are not going to hear the difference. I can tell you the Marantz pre/pros sound superb, and you need to keep the chain as simple as you can. There is absolutely nothing audibly wrong with the DACs in the Marantz pre/pros.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like @TLS Guy says, you’re NOT going to hear the difference among ANY of these DAC’s because they all so good that it is beyond our human capability to hear the difference.

There is a very good reason that hardly anyone does measurements anymore. Although we still talk about them for fun, the specs and measurements are beyond human audibility.

So many people focus more on reliability, heat production, compatibility, functionality, features, aesthetics, price, availability, etc., and less on the INAUDIBLE SPECS.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

what made you favor 5200 over the newer 7706?

It’s not because of the measurements or specs since they are inaudible.

 

[PENG]

Being one that can hear the difference between THD of 0.01 vs 0.0000000000000000000001%, would have to conclude that the CX5200 is better. So my professional opinion for MasterApex would be to get the Yamaha.

I really like and appreciate the fact that you clearly stated its your opinion. Lots of people in the subjective camp would state their "opinion" as thought it was "fact", though its understandable because it may just be "facts" for them.

 

[PENG]

To get analog stereo sounds:
A1) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo analog XLR out
A2) with CX-A5200, I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 5200 does the analog conversion
B1) with AV7706, I am limited to Oppo analog RCA out
B2) with AV7706 , I can use Oppo Dig out to pre-pro, let 7706 does the analog conversion

A1 is better than B1 due to XLR
A2 vs B2 is unknown

For SACD multichannel sound, I also have option for
B3) with AV7706, use Oppo 6ch analog out into AV7706 6ch direct analog.
In case oppo BD-105D DAC is better than Yamaha 5200

Therefore the question.

Since you seem interested in both user experience and measurements, I would highlight the following:

1) The CX-A5200, at the same output level (2.7 V) measured much worse if XLR outs were used, -72 dB THD+N vs RCA's, at -88 dB, that's 0.0251 vs 0.004%, a huge difference for people like Movie2099.

2) At reduce output level (2.4 V), the AV7705 measured -92.1 dB THD+N, that's more than 20 dB lower than the CX-A5200. We don't know how the AV7706 would measured yet but it is a reasonable assumption that it would not be worse than the AV7705, though you never know.

So based on measurements I would conclude:

A1) CX-A5200, using XLR out will most likely be much worse than B1, a little better but still worse than B1 if you use RCAs.

A2) It doesn't matter because the 5200 would be the bottleneck.

B1) It would likely be the best way, again there is no advantage of XLR out except when the interconnects are long, and/or you are matching it with certain power amps in terms of gain matching, and in gain difference/or same between using XLR and RCA). In this case, the M33's gain is >29 dB so even if the gain using XLR or RCA are the same, you will not likely benefit from the higher output voltage. For many power amps such as Marantz and Yamaha's the gain for XLR input is 6 dB lower when using RCAs so the 2X output voltage would make no difference at all. Note: ASR seemed to suggest (based on measurements iirc..) the M33 would digitize the analog input signal. The Marantz would of course do that too unless you use direct mode.

So if you go with measurements, take the AV7706 if you must have an AVP/C, otherwise fyi in case you don't know yet, of all the D+M AVP/AVRs measured by ASR, any of the Denon AVRs measured measured much better than the AV7705, the only Marantz model that came close was the SR8015.

I am trying to address you question with my EE hat on. As to user experience, my AV8801 seemed to sound exactly the same as my AVR and my separates so I am not qualified to comment on the subjective side of things.

By the way, it is also a fact (based on many studies) that some people do prefer higher distortions so its is entirely possible that 1% distortion could sound better than 0.00001% depending on the distortion profile.

 

[Movie2099]

Does it really matter? You have the choices with either pre-pro to have the Oppo or the pre-pros do the conversion if you have them hooked up by both analog and hdmi and decide for yourself.



You forgot to mention he needs those Fraudioquest wires to help hear the differences, too.....

Hahaha, dang, you're right! I forgot to mention he needs to get some nice AQ Yukon cables. Those DACs will just ooze that chocolatey goodness with AQ Yukons.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@PENG brought up another good point - if measurement is the salient factor, then get the Denon AVR-X8500HA since it measures better than the other pre-pros, including pre-pros that cost $20K and probably pre-pros that cost $30K.

 

[MasterApex]

Since you seem interested in both user experience and measurements, I would highlight the following:

1) The CX-A5200, at the same output level (2.7 V) measured much worse if XLR outs were used, -72 dB THD+N vs RCA's, at -88 dB, that's 0.0251 vs 0.004%, a huge difference for people like Movie2099.

2) At reduce output level (2.4 V), the AV7705 measured -92.1 dB THD+N, that's more than 20 dB lower than the CX-A5200. We don't know how the AV7706 would measured yet but it is a reasonable assumption that it would be worse than the AV7705, though you never know.

So based on measurements I would conclude:

A1) CX-A5200, using XLR out will most likely be much worse than B1, a little better but still worse than B1 if you use RCAs.

A2) It doesn't matter because the 5200 would be the bottleneck.

B1) It would likely be the best way, again there is no advantage of XLR out except when the interconnects are long, and/or you are matching it with certain power amps in terms of gain matching, and in gain difference/or same between using XLR and RCA). In this case, the M33's gain is >29 dB so even if the gain using XLR or RCA are the same, you will not likely benefit from the higher output voltage. For many power amps such as Marantz and Yamaha's the gain for XLR input is 6 dB lower when using RCAs so the 2X output voltage would make no difference at all. Note: ASR seemed to suggest (based on measurements iirc..) the M33 would digitize the analog input signal. The Marantz would of course do that too unless you use direct mode.

So if you go with measurements, take the AV7706 if you must have an AVP/C, otherwise fyi in case you don't know yet, of all the D+M AVP/AVRs measured by ASR, any of the Denon AVRs measured measured much better than the AV7705, the only Marantz model that came close was the SR8015.

I am trying to address you question with my EE hat on. As to user experience, my AV8801 seemed to sound exactly the same as my AVR and my separates so I am not qualified to comment on the subjective side of things.

By the way, it is also a fact (based on many studies) that some people do prefer higher distortions so its is entirely possible that 1% distortion could sound better than 0.00001% depending on the distortion profile.

Thank YOU very much. This is very helpful to me so I will proceed with AV7706. Unit is arriving next week.

My current stereo pre-amp (GFP750) XLR output is driving bi-amp so is seeing two XLR inputs.
When I tried the same config with AVM50v XLR output driving bi-amp (with splitter cable), there is slight volime and sound quality degradation. Maybe the output impedance of GFP750 is lower than AVM50v ?
I hope the AV7706 XLR output can be as strong/good as GFP750.

 

[PENG]

Thank YOU very much. This is very helpful to me so I will proceed with AV7706. Unit is arriving next week.

My current stereo pre-amp (GFP750) XLR output is driving bi-amp so is seeing two XLR inputs.
When I tried the same config with AVM50v XLR output driving bi-amp (with splitter cable), there is slight volime and sound quality degradation. Maybe the output impedance of GFP750 is lower than AVM50v ?
I hope the AV7706 XLR output can be as strong/good as GFP750.

Is that the Adcom GFP-750? If it is, the output impedance is, according to the specs, 1200 ohm balanced. It is lower, 600 ohm for unbalanced. That is not that high, but certainly not low. It is only rated 1 V, that seems low too as even my GFP-565 is rated 2 V. Anyway, while those Adcom preamps are quite good, in terms of transparency/accuracy they aren't that great (in my opinion) compared to modern gear like the Denon/Marantz AVPs/AVRs.

If you are driving two identical power amps, the input impedance seen by the pre outs will be halved but if the input impedance of each amp is 20,000 ohms or higher then it should be fine.

 

[MasterApex]

Is that the Adcom GFP-750? If it is, the output impedance is, according to the specs, 1200 ohm balanced. It is lower, 600 ohm for unbalanced. That is not that high, but certainly not low. It is only rated 1 V, that seems low too as even my GFP-565 is rated 2 V. Anyway, while those Adcom preamps are quite good, in terms of transparency/accuracy they aren't that great (in my opinion) compared to modern gear like the Denon/Marantz AVPs/AVRs.

If you are driving two identical power amps, the input impedance seen by the pre outs will be halved but if the input impedance of each amp is 20,000 ohms or higher then it should be fine.

Yes it is Adcom GFP750.
I like it because it has a passive mode vs active mode.
I only operate in passive mode " the audio signal input to the preamp only sees the input switching and volume attenuator before it is sent out to the output " Since the source is Oppo 105D, could Oppo XLR output impedance be the one driving the bi-amp ?

The active mode can drive more volume but passive mode sounds cleaner and is loud enough before maxing out the volume setting.

 

[PENG]

Yes it is Adcom GFP750.
I like it because it has a passive mode vs active mode.
I only operate in passive mode " the audio signal input to the preamp only sees the input switching and volume attenuator before it is sent out to the output " Since the source is Oppo 105D, could Oppo XLR output impedance be the one driving the bi-amp ?

The active mode can drive more volume but passive mode sounds cleaner and is loud enough before maxing out the volume setting.

I don't think so, the Oppo's output impedance would be part of it, but the passive preamp bound to have its own influence on the final output impedance. Depending on the design, it could result in a cleaner signal theoretically speaking but you do have to keep the interconnects as short as possible.

 

[MasterApex]

Thanks for your reply.

If I were to use AV7706 XLR output driving bi-amp via XLR splitter.
If the amp input impedance spec is100k ohms balanced, 50k ohms single-ended , should I still keep the XLR cable as short as possible or can it be 20ft long ?
(asking because of placement option).

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your reply.

If I were to use AV7706 XLR output driving bi-amp via XLR splitter.
If the amp input impedance spec is100k ohms balanced, 50k ohms single-ended , should I still keep the XLR cable as short as possible or can it be 20ft long ?
(asking because of placement option).

I don't think there is a simple yes/no answer as it depends on the design of the passive preamp and the impedance (the combination effects of the resistive, inductive and capacitive reactance). Regardless, 20 ft would likely be an audible issue.

Other than that, below are just my other thoughts and suggestions (some are repeats) based on my experience, so feel free to ignore.

For all the trouble and unknowns, you may want to use the shortest possible (temporary, because of placement limits) and really try and do a simple volume matched blind listening test to find out if you were really hearing a difference. If done under the same conditions, and if you don't know which one is playing, when used well below the devices limits, you won't be able to hear a difference between the GFP750 passive and active.

I am sure Nelson Pass is a great audio amplifiers designer (though not an EE as far as I can tell), and I respect him, but I believe if you put him through a properly done DBT session he will likely fail like many did.

If you clearly can hear a difference, and prefer the sound with the amp set to the passive mode, then you are going to have to find a way to keep the interconnects short. There is an outside chance that subjectively you may even prefer the "sound" with a 20 ft run. Subjective is subjective, it can sound great to you regardless, that's why we have all kinds of tone controls, EQs, and harmonic generators (such as Nelson Pass). The only problem with "subjective" is that you have to rely on a trial and error process and the results may not be repeatable even if everything remain unchanged, if the results were due to Placebo/expectation bias etc.

As far as XLR vs RCA goes, I would just repeat that for short runs, XLR is not better, unless you have the kind of power amps that favor the 2X input voltage, some do, but many don't, it all depends on the gain specs and even then it would still depend on how high the preamp output voltage do you really need. Voltage is like power, any extras would just be sitting idling and have no effects until there is a demand for the "extras" but obviously you know that already, I am just saying it again as a reminder.