Undecided

[paspolc]

hi everyone, i need a quick and unbiased advice: i'm undecided on which amplifier to connect to my Elac dbr62 if a marantz pm7000n or a Yamaha R-N803. I mainly listen to rock, jazz, classical music, my room is 300 sq.ft and I sit at about 6/7 feet from the hifi system.

my choice is limited to these two products.

Thanks to all.
Pasquale

 

[PENG]

hi everyone, i need a quick and unbiased advice: i'm undecided on which amplifier to connect to my Elac dbr62 if a marantz pm7000n or a Yamaha R-N803. I mainly listen to rock, jazz, classical music, my room is 300 sq.ft and I sit at about 6/7 feet from the hifi system.

my choice is limited to these two products.

Thanks to all.
Pasquale

Sounds familiar, I would take the R-N803 for more output (so can drive the Elacs better) and much less money. If you are prone to expectation bias, you may think the Marantz sounds better regardless of the fact that in most cases, such as yours, it is the recording/mastering quality of the contents and the speakers/placements that determine the overall sound quality. The amp has much less to do with that..

 

[paspolc]

Sounds familiar, I would take the R-N803 for more output (so can drive the Elacs better) and much less money. If you are prone to expectation bias, you may think the Marantz sounds better regardless of the fact that in most cases, such as yours, it is the recording/mastering quality of the contents and the speakers/placements that determine the overall sound quality. The amp has much less to do with that..

You know, i tried the Yamaha R-N803 and sounds a little bit kind of metallic/ bright, sometime lacked of the bass, that's why
i was looking for advice about the marantz as well. Difficult choice, but i would riconsider the Yamaha only because it costs around 395 euros less than the marantz ( around 485 usd ), and this time i would get the silver one.

But i also thought, if i have to build up a more or less seriuos hifi system, should I be careful to save or get the best?

P.

 

[Pogre]

You know, i tried the Yamaha R-N803 and sounds a little bit kind of metallic/ bright, sometime lacked of the bass, that's why

It would be interesting to see if you could still hear the difference in a more controlled blind setting. I'd bet money you wouldn't be able to tell.

 

[paspolc]

It would be interesting to see if you could still hear the difference in a more controlled blind setting. I'd bet money you wouldn't be able to tell.

Well, i tried it and the volume was not really impressive as well. I
had to turn the volume to almost max to hear some good rocking sound, whereas on the ampli i'm using now i can only turn it max to 12.00.
P.

 

[PENG]

You know, i tried the Yamaha R-N803 and sounds a little bit kind of metallic/ bright, sometime lacked of the bass, that's why
i was looking for advice about the marantz as well. Difficult choice, but i would riconsider the Yamaha only because it costs around 395 euros less than the marantz ( around 485 usd ), and this time i would get the silver one.

But i also thought, if i have to build up a more or less seriuos hifi system, should I be careful to save or get the best?

P.

That does not sound right at all!!

If you still have the unit, you may want to try a factory reset and then do another listening using the CD input, use pure direct and leave the loudness control in the factory setting (will be bypass if pure direct is use anyway).

If I read it the manual right the volume is digital, goes from -80 to +16.5 so maximum would be +16.5, but it you have to turn if even to -10 to get the level you need, something is wrong.

Regardless, as Pogre alluded to, invariably the reported different sound signature would disappear in a blind test but it is almost impossible to convince anyone who has the preconceptions that receivers are just craps.

If you already have a somewhat firm belief that amps have different sound signature and that Marantz has a warm sound, then I guess you should just get the Marantz.

 

[lovinthehd]

You know, i tried the Yamaha R-N803 and sounds a little bit kind of metallic/ bright, sometime lacked of the bass, that's why
i was looking for advice about the marantz as well. Difficult choice, but i would riconsider the Yamaha only because it costs around 395 euros less than the marantz ( around 485 usd ), and this time i would get the silver one.

But i also thought, if i have to build up a more or less seriuos hifi system, should I be careful to save or get the best?

P.

The amplification is not going to vary as much as the speaker quality, so concentrate on better speakers than worry about the electronics.

You tested the Yamaha in home?

ps Comparing different volume scales or controls is somewhat useless. It doesn't tell you much.

 

[PENG]

OP: Just want to add that in general I despise low to mid range integrated amps because many of them tend to simply use standard ICs such as DACs, volume controls and OPAs, knowing that the unsuspected consumers would not likely know the difference. Only those who do their research by looking for photos of the inside and reviews that include detailed bench measurements (such as Audioholics.com, hometheaterhificom, Soundstagenetwork.com, Stereophile, and Audiosciencereview.com's would find out the "truth" behind the much higher price and masked by the marketing information.

In this case the Marantz PM7000N appears to be a nice surprise in that it does include an ex flagship AKM DAC IC and a higher version of the HDAM, though I am still disappointed with the DAC implementation. It cannot play the super high resolution files such as DSD256 (11.2 MHz) and DSD512 (22.6 MHz). Not a huge deal, you just can't play those contents that may (many are not) happen to be of the best recording/mastering quality.

The trade off is, it offers little output power so if you go that route, you should definitely figure out your actual power need for your application to make sure you won't be pushing too close to the amp's clipping point. There would be no point to pay premium for something like this, if it ends up clipping, even just during peaks.

 

[paspolc]

Sounds familiar, I would take the R-N803 for more output (so can drive the Elacs better) and much less money. If you are prone to expectation bias, you may think the Marantz sounds better regardless of the fact that in most cases, such as yours, it is the recording/mastering quality of the contents and the speakers/placements that determine the overall sound quality. The amp has much less to do with that..

would you be kind enough to explain to me and make me understand (I'm not a technician, I'm only trying to set up a nice stereo system) how important is the output power in driving the Elac speakers and how much the lower power of the marantz could compromise the performance sound of the speakers, in fact?

Thanks
P.

 

[PENG]

would you be kind enough to explain to me and make me understand (I'm not a technician, I'm only trying to set up a nice stereo system) how important is the output power in driving the Elac speakers and how much the lower power of the marantz could compromise the performance sound of the speakers, in fact?

Thanks
P.

Okay then, let's first examine the impedance and phase angle versus frequency graphs of the DBR62:
For phase angle, one should pay attention to whether the higher values coincide with the impedance dips.
In this case, you can see that the area of concern could be between 100 and 200 Hz where either impedance is lower than 6 Ohms or phase angle is higher than 30 degrees, or both. Basically, large phase angles mean the amplifier would have to dissipate more heat, all else being equal.

Understanding Impedance Curves & Phase Angles | Audioholics

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Next, as you may know, how much power you need depends mainly on:

1) Your sitting distance. You said 6-7 ft.
2) Speaker's sensitivity. It is 86 dB/2.83V/1m
3) Your desire SPL (sound pressure level). Note: Reference level is 105 dB peak based on one speaker.

Now you have the information you need to do the calculation. I have my own spreadsheet calculator that allows for more inputs but for a good ball park number, let's just use the popular one linked below:

Peak SPL Calculator (homestead.com)

The results show with 80 W, sitting 8 ft (you said 6-7 but that seems quite close so I take liberty to call it 8 ft), you should be able to get 99 dB peak.

That means if you watch a BR movie that followed THX standards, you can listen to 79 dB level on average (vs reference level that is 85/105 dB) and the Marantz will not likely to "clip".

79/99 dB would still be quite loud, loud enough for me for sure but some people do listen to reference level or close to it. So you can see that the Marantz will likely do a good job but you may end up pushing it close to its limit. For me I would like to have at least 2X what I actually need, to make sure the amp would never clip but ymmv. Music signals are not pure sinewaves, they contain sinewaves of the fundamental and harmonic frequencies so the combined waveform tend to look very peaky. And if you listen to music that has very high dynamics, your power amp may clip much more often than you may think.

Power Amplifier Clipping (sound-au.com)

I would not go with such a low power amp if I have $1,000 to spend. Think about it, if for some reason you end up sitting 10 ft (instead of 8 ft) you power need would jump to 125 W. Its a pity that it does not even offer preamp outputs, that precludes the option to add an external power amp, if and when you need some extra power.

Lastly, back to the phase angle concerns, the fact that this speaker has some moderately nasty angles in the below 1 kHz range, if you are going with the Marantz amp I would suggest you grab a quiet fan to help cool the unit.

The bottom line is, this little amp can be an excellent choice, if the 60/80W is all you need, better still, more than you actually need. If not, you could be stuck, as it has no pre outs so even if it has an excellent preamp/DAC, you won't be able to use it with an external power amp.

 

[Pogre]

Of the 2 choices, for me, the Yamaha would be a no brainer. Tho neither of them have any bass management whatsoever. If for stereo use only in that price bracket I'd be looking at some previous models of mid to high tier avrs. Just for the bass management alone, but there's a lot more flexibility with an avr too.

 

[PENG]

Of the 2 choices, for me, the Yamaha would be a no brainer. Tho neither of them have any bass management whatsoever. If for stereo use only in that price bracket I'd be looking at some previous models of mid to high tier avrs. Just for the bass management alone, but there's a lot more flexibility with an avr too.

I think Yamaha missed a good opportunity by including YPAO but not basic bass management. I hope they will add it to the next version.

 

[lovinthehd]

Of the 2 choices, for me, the Yamaha would be a no brainer. Tho neither of them have any bass management whatsoever. If for stereo use only in that price bracket I'd be looking at some previous models of mid to high tier avrs. Just for the bass management alone, but there's a lot more flexibility with an avr too.

I like the feature set of the Yamaha also, and while I glanced at a manual before, I just spent more time looking for what the sub out does.....it has YPAO so I assumed it could manage the bass but there's no manual control nor any mention of a low pass or high pass filter at all....so what does YPAO do when there's a sub? I also found it curious the manual indicates the bass tone control has the ability to swing 10dB either way.....at 20hz. That's a pretty low frequency for a bass tone control...I expected more like 50hz....

 

[paspolc]

Thanks very, very much to all, especially to @PENG for the explanation.

and thanks to @PENG's technical considerations, i think i will choose the yamaha, but with the difference that this time i will take it silver and, among other things, i found an online store that sells it for 750 euros compared to the 895 i had paid for it before, which is a good price here in Italy.

Thanks again

 

[PENG]

Thanks very, very much to all, especially to @PENG for the explanation.

and thanks to @PENG's technical considerations, i think i will choose the yamaha, but with the difference that this time i will take it silver and, among other things, i found an online store that sells it for 750 euros compared to the 895 i had paid for it before, which is a good price here in Italy.

Thanks again

Happy to know you have narrowed it down (just a little I guess.... By the way, in re-reading an old thread on the R-N803, I noticed that it may have an a nice undocumented feature (not mentioned in the Owner's manual), that is, "bass management". I don't know if it is only available after you run YPAO but it doesn't matter as long as the setting would remain intact once set, regardless of whether you engage YPAO or not. May be @KEW can provide more details on this. For now, my understanding is that to access the bass management menu you have to use the Music Cast App.

If you use a subwoofer and don't want to use YPAO, then this is arguably a must have feature (again, assuming it would let you use the feature even after turning YPAO off). Follow the link below for more details posted by an user:

Yamaha R-N803 stereo network receiver with YPAO bass mgt! | Audioholics Home Theater Forums There is also a long thread on AVS with those screenshots.

Another thing, the amp sections and power supplies of the two appear to be very similar if not the same, based on available photos of the inside posted on forums, and comparing the specs of the two.

Also, if you compare the bench test results of Audioholics on the A-S801 integrated amp, and those of the R-N803 measured by ASR, they are in fact very similar:

A-S801, measured by Gene... 185 W into 4 Ohms, at 0.1%
R-N803, by Amir......................175 W into 4 Ohms, at 0.0061%

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Yamaha R-N803 Smart Receiver Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

So, I think it is reasonable to expect roughly the same 185 W into 4 Ohms at .1% THD+N, that's more than enough for the Elac DBR62.

One last point, if and when you do another listening test, make sure you reset the unit to factory default setting first. Your previous experience might have been affected by a messed up setting such as the impedance selector being set to 4 Ohms etc.

 

[paspolc]

Happy to know you have narrowed it down (just a little I guess.... By the way, in re-reading an old thread on the R-N803, I noticed that it may have an a nice undocumented feature (not mentioned in the Owner's manual), that is, "bass management". I don't know if it is only available after you run YPAO but it doesn't matter as long as the setting would remain intact once set, regardless of whether you engage YPAO or not. May be @KEW can provide more details on this. For now, my understanding is that to access the bass management menu you have to use the Music Cast App.

If you use a subwoofer and don't want to use YPAO, then this is arguably a must have feature (again, assuming it would let you use the feature even after turning YPAO off). Follow the link below for more details posted by an user:

Yamaha R-N803 stereo network receiver with YPAO bass mgt! | Audioholics Home Theater Forums There is also a long thread on AVS with those screenshots.

Another thing, the amp sections and power supplies of the two appear to be very similar if not the same, based on available photos of the inside posted on forums, and comparing the specs of the two.

Also, if you compare the bench test results of Audioholics on the A-S801 integrated amp, and those of the R-N803 measured by ASR, they are in fact very similar:

A-S801, measured by Gene... 185 W into 4 Ohms, at 0.1%
R-N803, by Amir......................175 W into 4 Ohms, at 0.0061%

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics
Yamaha R-N803 Smart Receiver Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

So, I think it is reasonable to expect roughly the same 185 W into 4 Ohms at .1% THD+N, that's more than enough for the Elac DBR62.

One last point, if and when you do another listening test, make sure you reset the unit to factory default setting first. Your previous experience might have been affected by a messed up setting such as the impedance selector being set to 4 Ohms etc.

Thanks a lot, very kind of you to give me all this time of yours.



regarding this last point, shouldn't the impedance of the Yamaha be set to 4 ohm if that of the speakers is 6 ohm?
Attached instructions from the manual.

 

[PENG]

Thans a lot.View attachment 48335View attachment 48335

regarding this last point, shouldn't the impedance of the Yamaha be set to 4ohm if that of the speakers is 6ohm?
Attached instructions from the manual.

There is at least one Audioholics.com article related to this topic.
Example:
Setting the A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch | Audioholics
The article was published in 2015, in which when Gene stated:

"This article explores why the impedance switch exists and its intended purpose. Because of liability and the litigious society we live in, I can't tell you to ALWAYS set the impedance switch to the high setting for 4 ohm loads, but I can show you the facts on what this switch does along with supportive data for you to make your own educated decision."

In one of his recent videos, he seemed to have talked about this more openly, may be he now has good liability coverage lol..

Jokes aside, basically, it you set it to 4 Ohms, the device would switch the rail to a much reduced voltage. It is not a unique scheme used by Yamaha, others including Denon, Marantz all use the same trick if they offer such a selector. Reality is, if you leave it at the 8 Ohm setting, the R-N803 would actually be able to output much more "watts" into 4 Ohms as long as the impedance does not stay at 4 Ohms continuously.

 

[paspolc]

Ok, so i should leave it on 8 ohm, even if speakers have a 6 ohm impedance? Ok, i'll follow your advice, you know a lot more than i do.

Anyway, when i tested the Yamaha with 4 ohm set, it seemed to me more powerful and louder, that was my impression

P.

 

[Pogre]

Ok, so i should leave it on 8 ohm, even if speakers have a 6 ohm impedance? Ok, i'll follow your advice, you know a lot more than i do.

Anyway, when i tested the Yamaha with 4 ohm set, it seemed to me more powerful and louder, that was my impressionante.

P.

Yeah... to me this is just more evidence of expectation bias. The 4 ohm selector switch limits power. The complete opposite of what you reported.