Dual Subwoofer placement Help

[Tctfox]

Hei there
So this is my first post here so I hope I am asking on the right site

At the moment I have a 5.1 setup with Canton GLE Speakers, a SVS SB1000 subwoofer and a Denon x1600h. My room is used for music and movie watching. The room isnt perfect as a HomeTheater at all and I know that, its also a library and has a bed for guests. So I got the opportunity to get a second svs SB1000 from a friend for basically for free so I naturally said yes. Mainly because I have a known issue with Room-Modes that kills the bass either for the main listening spot if the sub is in the front or for the others if the sub is in the back. So the second subwoofer should really help even out the bass response in the whole room. Now I got some issues placing it though. In the attachments I put a sketch of my room (with precise measurements). The best way to place it in my room is definitely front right and rear left.

Problem: As you can see the sub in the front and in the back cant be placed directly behind a wall as there is furniture that I cant really move away. The distance is also not the same.

So I am not sure now. Should I place my listening position so that the distance from Listening position to the subwoofers is the same ( listening to sub 1 = listening to sub 2) or should I place them so the distance to the back wall is the same?
This is all really confusing to me as at the same time I should keep the Stereo Triangle.
I am really thankful for every piece of advice!
The 3 red Seats are totally movable and are normally a bit more in the front than in the sketch.

 

[ryanosaur]

My preferred advice for subwoofer placement is to do the crawl. Put one sub in your listening position, turn off all the other speakers, and move around the room, crawling, and listen for the best Bass response. Try to pick 2 or 3 spots that sound good. They do not have to be symmetrical. Corner placements can be problematic but useful, Bass can get boomy or muddy, and it will also get louder.
Ideally each sub will positively sum in response and if spread out smartly they will work to cancel room nulls
If your AVR supports 2 subs, then the room correction will automatically assign distance/delay and set levels. This is great, even if you then turn room correction off. If you cannot independently set each sub, then you are more constrained and the usual recommendation is to keep the subs equidistant and somewhat more symmetrical.

 

[ryanosaur]

Back to my desktop: Here's the link...

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

 

[ryanosaur]

Couple other notes...
Seating in the center of the room can be one of the worst places for your LP. 1/5 the way from the back wall can be good, as can somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3. (Acoustics is tricky )
Back to the subs: because your room is not completely regular in shape, the standard symmetrical model of opposing corners, 1/2 wall, 1/4 wall, and other such placements can start to break down. Using the Crawl to find the actual best sounding spots can be super helpful, and then with good room correction or use of a calibrated mic and measurement program like REW you can dial in specific best placement. As I said before, symmetry is not always advised.
Cheers!

 

[Trell]

My preferred advice for subwoofer placement is to do the crawl. Put one sub in your listening position, turn off all the other speakers, and move around the room, crawling, and listen for the best Bass response. Try to pick 2 or 3 spots that sound good. They do not have to be symmetrical. Corner placements can be problematic but useful, Bass can get boomy or muddy, and it will also get louder.
Ideally each sub will positively sum in response and if spread out smartly they will work to cancel room nulls
If your AVR supports 2 subs, then the room correction will automatically assign distance/delay and set levels. This is great, even if you then turn room correction off. If you cannot independently set each sub, then you are more constrained and the usual recommendation is to keep the subs equidistant and somewhat more symmetrical.

His Denon x1600h does not have independent two independent subwoofer outputs, and for that he'll have to upgrade to a 3000 series Denon or something else like a miniDSP.

 

[ryanosaur]

I was on my phone at first and missed the AVR model.

 

[ryanosaur]

And in that case, symmetrical placement, equidistant from mainLP is advised.

 

[Tctfox]

His Denon x1600h does not have independent two independent subwoofer outputs, and for that he'll have to upgrade to a 3000 series Denon or something else like a miniDSP.

Oh okey thats quite the problem. I didnt know that it didnt support 2 subwoofers like I thought so. It always said 7.2 avr everywhere I read about it so I thougt it would support it independently, thanks for that info. For the future where exactly do I find the info if it supports them independently

 

[Tctfox]

Couple other notes...
Seating in the center of the room can be one of the worst places for your LP. 1/5 the way from the back wall can be good, as can somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3. (Acoustics is tricky )
Back to the subs: because your room is not completely regular in shape, the standard symmetrical model of opposing corners, 1/2 wall, 1/4 wall, and other such placements can start to break down. Using the Crawl to find the actual best sounding spots can be super helpful, and then with good room correction or use of a calibrated mic and measurement program like REW you can dial in specific best placement. As I said before, symmetry is not always advised.
Cheers!

Yes I know the Room-Modes always crate a bass hole in the middle of the room. Hence I thought 2 subs would help even it out. The problem is I cant move further back as else the Stereo-Triangle right? I cant really move the front speakers further into the room or further distance between them.

 

[Tctfox]

With sub crawling I found out that the best position is where in my sketch SW2 would be. So there will definitely be a subwoofer. If I want to do it symmetrically I can do it the way I described it in my sketch and move the listening position in the middle of the 2.

But now that Trell pointed out my sub doesn't support dual independent subs I am not sure anymore if in my room it is doable at all to have dual subs. At least not until I can afford a newer AVR.

 

[ryanosaur]

Stereo-Triangle

I personally think the equilateral triangle is a boat load of cr@p. YMMV. But here's the thing... Stereo recording are usually mixed in that setting because it gives the engineers the most separation between channels. I sit back a little further in an isosceles triangle which allows the soundfield to coalesce into a greater whole. Oh, and I can still hear "soundstage" placements.
It's a complete PITA to navigate the dogma. Your best friend is experimentation. This goes across the board for speaker placement and so many other little details.
But in all of that, whatever you do:
Don't forget to enjoy the music and your movies!

 

[Trell]

Oh okey thats quite the problem. I didnt know that it didnt support 2 subwoofers like I thought so. It always said 7.2 avr everywhere I read about it so I thougt it would support it independently, thanks for that info. For the future where exactly do I find the info if it supports them independently

You can still use your receiver but you need some kind of measuring instrument, like a MiniDSP UMIK-1 USB microphone to around $100 and a microphone stand (assuming you have a laptop with HDMI output available). There is a free audio measurement software REW that often is used for this. My guess is that will be cheaper than buying a new receiver but can be more time consuming.

What a 3000 series Denon or higher will do is to set the level and distance for each subwoofer, and the EQ them as one. It's the level and distance for two subwoofers you'll have to do yourself. That said, the room EQ in the lower end Denon is not that good for bass.

 

[Trell]

I personally think the equilateral triangle is a boat load of cr@p. ...

It's a starting point that often gives an OK initial result, and after that one start with trials. Been there done that

 

[ryanosaur]

With sub crawling I found out that the best position is where in my sketch SW2 would be. So there will definitely be a subwoofer. If I want to do it symmetrically I can do it the way I described it in my sketch and move the listening position in the middle of the 2.

But now that Trell pointed out my sub doesn't support dual independent subs I am not sure anymore if in my room it is doable at all to have dual subs. At least not until I can afford a newer AVR.

It's still beneficial... but frankly, the crawl becomes less useful if you can't independently manage the Subs.
You can get a mini dsp 2x4 and a umik1, learn how to use REW, and then you can independently control both subs.

Regarding your room, photos would be great, but the biggest boon to your experience will be proper set up. Learning how to work with your room is much more important that putting your chair smack in the middle where you ARE most likely going to be in a null. Pull your speakers out of the corners and 1-2 feet into the room if they are not already. Again, experiment! With an open mind and open ears!!!

 

[Tctfox]

Thanks for the tips
Now that I know that my sub isn't *really* capable of dual subs I am probably giving up the idea of adding the other sub for now. I will definitely do some experimenting
Dumb of me that I didn't get the better AVR when I first got the system. The x2700h would support it I think so maybe in the future I will update it.

I am not sure if I am able to figure out the mini dsp with REW honestly, but worth a try.

Thanks again for the ideas

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for the tips
Now that I know that my sub isn't *really* capable of dual subs I am probably giving up the idea of adding the other sub for now. I will definitely do some experimenting
Dumb of me that I didn't get the better AVR when I first got the system. The x2700h would support it I think so maybe in the future I will update it.

I am not sure if I am able to figure out the mini dsp with REW honestly, but worth a try.

Thanks again for the ideas

REW isn't that hard to get working, and it will pay off to learn... assuming you are serious about getting your system set up well and maximizing your experience. There are a lot of online refernces and tutorials to guide you, including some shared here at AH.

For now, put both Subs up front, equidistant, and enjoy!

Really. Just do it, sit back, and enjoy.

 

[Trell]

Thanks for the tips
Now that I know that my sub isn't *really* capable of dual subs I am probably giving up the idea of adding the other sub for now. I will definitely do some experimenting
Dumb of me that I didn't get the better AVR when I first got the system. The x2700h would support it I think so maybe in the future I will update it.

I am not sure if I am able to figure out the mini dsp with REW honestly, but worth a try.

Thanks again for the ideas

Instead of another SB1000 I would replace it with a more powerful subwoofer as SB1000 is pretty weak. With a more powerful subwoofer you can even place it further away and still have a good response at your main listening position.

I would even consider moving the listening position closer to the front speakers.

 

[Tctfox]

Instead of another SB1000 I would replace it with a more powerful subwoofer as SB1000 is pretty weak. With a more powerful subwoofer you can even place it further away and still have a good response at your main listening position.

I would even consider moving the listening position closer to the front speakers.

Yes that would be an idea for the future. I got the second sub basically for free and i cant afford a newer/better sub atm at all. So I have to work with what I have. In the picture the seats are quite far away. I plan to do it so my ears are about 2.10-2.20m away from the center. This yielded quite good results. Is there any guide to follow with using rew with the minidsp. In general I get what the software and the minidsp do, but I dont really get how I would tweak it. For example I wouldn't understand the differences in the subwoofer responses in rew. i basically don't know whats it supposed to look like. Some good docs or something would definitely help

But for the meantime I think I will try to align the subs front right, rear left and try to place them symmetrical.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes that would be an idea for the future. I got the second sub basically for free and i cant afford a newer/better sub atm at all. So I have to work with what I have. In the picture the seats are quite far away. I plan to do it so my ears are about 2.10-2.20m away from the center. This yielded quite good results. Is there any guide to follow with using rew with the minidsp. In general I get what the software and the minidsp do, but I dont really get how I would tweak it. For example I wouldn't understand the differences in the subwoofer responses in rew. i basically don't know whats it supposed to look like. Some good docs or something would definitely help

But for the meantime I think I will try to align the subs front right, rear left and try to place them symmetrical.

Mini DSP has a lot of info on their site. Search AH for REW tutorial. I think it was posted by Poes.

 

[Tctfox]

Will try to find some stuff thanks

So just for me to understand. A mini dsp 2x4 would be enough? Or would I need the HD one.

I also think I am thinking a bit too much about it right now. I was quite excited to get a second sub and now I am just disappointed

I will just experiment with it and maybe the sound experience will be better and maybe not. If not I will defenitely invest time and effort in figuring out how to time adjust with minidsp + rew

Cheers guys. I wish you a good weekend