Amps for Passive Subs: Avoid Class D? Huh?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Crown is actually considered high-end in the PA market. I'd absolutely do a Crown class D to drive a speaker that is only tasked to push about 200Hz of frequency range and not need to be especially detailed, just not distorted.
Detailed? What?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@Verdinut
I am keyed on on QSC, too. I was looking at the PLD series briefly, earlier. It raised a whole slew of questions for my non-EE trained @$$. It has a lot of setup options that could see it powering various drivers up to that NSW I mentioned above... but it ain't cheap!

Crest Amps came highly recommended, but the only Class D that look suitable on quick perusal is the Pro-Lite Series.
Peavey has the IPR2 Series.

Of course... Crown has several options.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I think both Crest and Peavey have seen better days. If I were spending your money I'd probably go with SpeakerPower....
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
No doubt. ;)
I'd like to stretch my dollar for the moment. ;) I think it was Nick at SI that brought up Crest.

Truthfully, for simply getting started and testing things out, a Berry NX3000 would be the most straightforward solution. One of those, bridged, should be able to put 1800w to the Driver.

But long-gaming this is what I'm really looking at.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think high quality Class-D amps should be powering all speakers and subwoofers.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Tagging for info. If/when my Behringer dies I'll be looking for a replacement in the same power range. So far the Crown 2502 seems to be a pretty good frontrunner for price/performance.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Not as detailed as a full-range speaker. ;)
Not sure why that matters in terms of amplification. You'd want detailed and neutral no matter what you're powering and I think it's safe to say most of the competent, established manufacturers (like Crown) have achieved that goal. I think reliability, and sufficient power are the bigger factors for subwoofage.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Why do you need 1800w to the driver particularly?
It’s not particularly 1800 w that is important. More to the point it’s that those berrys will likely tap out there even though they should provide more.
According to Nick, the SQLs benefit from having more power on hand. Granted the difference between 1800 and 2000 is pretty meaningless, and not that 2000 is an actual max limit, but the suggestion stands that the Drivers can handle more power and may likely benefit from having the headroom available… especially when pushing infrasonic extension.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
@Verdinut
I am keyed on on QSC, too. I was looking at the PLD series briefly, earlier. It raised a whole slew of questions for my non-EE trained @$$. It has a lot of setup options that could see it powering various drivers up to that NSW I mentioned above... but it ain't cheap!

Crest Amps came highly recommended, but the only Class D that look suitable on quick perusal is the Pro-Lite Series.
Peavey has the IPR2 Series.

Of course... Crown has several options.
I did peruse the info on the PLD series. They have numerous configuration possibilities and I'm sure they are able to adequately drive subwoofers.

The Eminence NSW are pro audio woofers. Most pro audio woofers are not real subwoofers as their purpose is to produce tremendous output in large venues. Bear in mind that high efficiency is incompatible with infrasonic performance, unless you are using very large horn enclosures with the appropriate drivers that have a low Fs
around 20 Hz.
The 21 inch NSW 6021-6 low frequency production is pretty well limited to 50 Hz. Actually, in the appropriate vented box with a net internal volume of 2.5 cf, its response is limited to a -3 dB at 49 Hz. I don't think you would be interested in a woofer which has a low frequency limit similar to a 5" cone driver.

My question is also why would you need that much SPL? Are you planning to equip an auditorium? Four to six Dayton RSS390 HF subs should be amply sufficient to pressurize most any home listening room.
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Crest Amps came highly recommended, but the only Class D that look suitable on quick perusal is the Pro-Lite Series.
Peavey has the IPR2 Series.
Just did a deeper look and neither of these options are bridgeable.
They both claim to be stable at 2 ohms and can output plenty of power if I connected my VCs in parallel. (FWIW)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
My question is also why would you need that much SPL? Are you planning to equip an auditorium? Four to six Dayton RSS390 HF subs should be amply sufficient to pressurize most any home listening room.
A major part of this question is going to be answered in a different thread. The short of it is that I want Subwoofers that will perform at low extension with authority. Not that these aren't available on the market in various products already from many of our well known ID companies, but the desire to experiment, build and learn more goes much deeper than simple "Retail Therapy." :)

The Eminence NSW are pro audio woofers. Most pro audio woofers are not real subwoofers as their purpose is to produce tremendous output in large venues. Bear in mind that high efficiency is incompatible with infrasonic performance, unless you are using very large horn enclosures with the appropriate drivers that have a low Fs
around 20 Hz.
The 21 inch NSW 6021-6 low frequency production is pretty well limited to 50 Hz. Actually, in the appropriate vented box with a net internal volume of 2.5 cf, its response is limited to a -3 dB at 49 Hz. I don't think you would be interested in a woofer which has a low frequency limit similar to a 5" driver.
This, I have come to learn, is not true. Really, just look at PSA and what he (Tom?) is doing with the B&C Drivers. To be fair, I can easily be quoted as questioning the efficacy of this school of Subwoofer design. It probably wouldn't take long to find at least 10 instances of me doing so. ;) But the more I have looked and been willing to open my mind, the more I have seen people doing this to levels of success that, in the instance of PSA, is driving what seems to be a resurgence in his business. Even here on AH, I have seen more different people than ever post up about their experience with his Subs, and more still asking about them.
Again, this is a much bigger topic than I want to get into here and have another thread started where I intend to dig into this... but... :)
...As was explained to me by a California Company doing Subwoofers, what one needs to do is to understand that the T/S parameters are not necessarily limiting factors. They represent a limited system in that they apply to the Driver only. While they may give insight to how a driver will behave, they do not necessarily limit the driver from performing as one part in a larger system.
That Eminence Driver has a high Fs, as do almost all drivers in the same category (again, look at the drivers PSA is using). However, it has such a stronger motor and pole is long enough that when in a specific cabinet it can be pushing 16Hz at about 1/3 its gap while the 21" B&C or LaVoce are reaching their usable limits and pushing 2/3 their gap.
So who is right? ;)
Again, I stress, this is largely in the name of educating myself through experimentation and practice. It has been made abundantly clear to me that the books we use to learn are also hindrances in a certain manner. Nobody is saying, "throw them out," but they don't discuss, as I've seen, how a high Bl helps stabilize the design and allows a Driver to be pushed well beyond its Fs to the point where the Xmax/Xvar/Xmech are being used to their fullest potential and where the designer can determine how much excursion is creating too much distortion for their goal and then set a limit. In the case of that NSW, I've seen models with it outperforming the LaVoce SAN214.50 and B&C 21DS115 by roughly 5-6dB at extension... and it's usually been the cabinet that limits the NSW. (I've seen a model for a box going down to 13Hz, but both the size of the cabinet and the power demand are extreme and beyond practicality.)

Where I once steadfastly would say these drivers shouldn't work like this... now, I clearly see that they can. Where once I would have flatly said no... now I am interested in understanding the how and why. :)
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
No doubt. ;)
I'd like to stretch my dollar for the moment. ;) I think it was Nick at SI that brought up Crest.

Truthfully, for simply getting started and testing things out, a Berry NX3000 would be the most straightforward solution. One of those, bridged, should be able to put 1800w to the Driver.

But long-gaming this is what I'm really looking at.
I feel Lovin is spot on its going to cost but SpeakerPower is the way I'd go. RBH uses a SpeakerPower Amp in my SV 1212PR for a reason
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I am going neck deep into some Subwoofer builds and have been planning to go Class D across the board with my system, including these new Passive Sub designs. There are many issues when looking through the world of amplifiers to manage larger woofers properly, including when you start looking at the bigger Pro Drivers that can handle 1700w like a snack and may peak at 3400W... or consider the Eminince NSW6021-6 which is rated at RMS/Max 2500/5000w!
Likewise, one can search the SQL-15s that I just purchased and find a YT Vid of them torture testing a pair to the tune of over 12000w per driver!!!
Yes, some of this is superfluous to the topic at hand, but not unnecessary background. ;)
Many would just say get some Behringers: they are inexpensive and widely available. They also fail to perform at spec, and the 6000s do not support being driven hard as reported by many I've talked too. Then come the Crown XLS DriveCore Series 2 which are more expensive and seem to do the job. The 2502, Bridged will deliver 2400w at 4-ohms.
Beyond this... where do you go?

Well, I did a simple google search earlier and stumbled on this gem:

Huh?
*scratches head quizzically

A lot of Subs are using Class D Amps today. If it wasn't efficacious, it wouldn't be the case. Of course there is not much in the way of support for the claim they make. but still...

To All: Any thoughts? ;)
Interesting company. Complaining about others not giving RMS rating and they don't even know there is no RMS power rating. Power is average continuous
power derived from I rms x E rms that gives average continuous power. ;)
Then a class A for a sub? Really? Class D not fast enough? I guess they don't know that subs operate in the below 100Hz or so.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
A major part of this question is going to be answered in a different thread. The short of it is that I want Subwoofers that will perform at low extension with authority. Not that these aren't available on the market in various products already from many of our well known ID companies, but the desire to experiment, build and learn more goes much deeper than simple "Retail Therapy." :)


This, I have come to learn, is not true. Really, just look at PSA and what he (Tom?) is doing with the B&C Drivers. To be fair, I can easily be quoted as questioning the efficacy of this school of Subwoofer design. It probably wouldn't take long to find at least 10 instances of me doing so. ;) But the more I have looked and been willing to open my mind, the more I have seen people doing this to levels of success that, in the instance of PSA, is driving what seems to be a resurgence in his business. Even here on AH, I have seen more different people than ever post up about their experience with his Subs, and more still asking about them.
Again, this is a much bigger topic than I want to get into here and have another thread started where I intend to dig into this... but... :)
...As was explained to me by a California Company doing Subwoofers, what one needs to do is to understand that the T/S parameters are not necessarily limiting factors. They represent a limited system in that they apply to the Driver only. While they may give insight to how a driver will behave, they do not necessarily limit the driver from performing as one part in a larger system.
That Eminence Driver has a high Fs, as do almost all drivers in the same category (again, look at the drivers PSA is using). However, it has such a stronger motor and pole is long enough that when in a specific cabinet it can be pushing 16Hz at about 1/3 its gap while the 21" B&C or LaVoce are reaching their usable limits and pushing 2/3 their gap.
So who is right? ;)
Again, I stress, this is largely in the name of educating myself through experimentation and practice. It has been made abundantly clear to me that the books we use to learn are also hindrances in a certain manner. Nobody is saying, "throw them out," but they don't discuss, as I've seen, how a high Bl helps stabilize the design and allows a Driver to be pushed well beyond its Fs to the point where the Xmax/Xvar/Xmech are being used to their fullest potential and where the designer can determine how much excursion is creating too much distortion for their goal and then set a limit. In the case of that NSW, I've seen models with it outperforming the LaVoce SAN214.50 and B&C 21DS115 by roughly 5-6dB at extension... and it's usually been the cabinet that limits the NSW. (I've seen a model for a box going down to 13Hz, but both the size of the cabinet and the power demand are extreme and beyond practicality.)

Where I once steadfastly would say these drivers shouldn't work like this... now, I clearly see that they can. Where once I would have flatly said no... now I am interested in understanding the how and why. :)
This does not make sense. You can not drive a speaker in a vented box below its Fs. That Eminence driver is high sensitivity, low Qts, with an Fs of 29 Hz. So F3 vented will be considerably higher than Fs. So F3 will be around 50 Hz what ever you do. There is a direct inverse relationship between high sensitivity and bass extension. You can not fight that. So the only acoustic solution to pulling up the bass is a massive bass horn. It will be so big, that it will be impractical domestically because of the driver diameter.

The T/S parameters are not amenable to over drive in a sealed enclosure.
 

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