Does it make sense to upgrade tweeters?

[Jbrunwa]

I've owned and used a pair of ACI (Audio Concepts Inc) Panorama speakers and an Essence center speaker along with the Maestro 15" sub for a number of years built by Mike Dzurko. They are 3-way designs, built like tanks, have beautiful cabinets, use high quality components, and for the most part still sound great. However, the Scan-Speak D2905/930000 tweeters roll off the high frequencies a little much for my aging hearing. Rather than giving up on the whole set, I was wondering if I might upgrade the tweeters in favor of something with a little flatter response. Room correction software like Audyssey reference curve boosts +5 dB @ 4 kHz and +6 dB above 8 kHz, which improves them but sounds somewhat forced. The tweeters are easy to remove if I were to replace them. I'm looking for helpful advice, especially from DIY speaker builders/audio experts. Thanks in advance

 

[ryanosaur]

Without knowing how the XO is actually built and whether that roll-off is part of the Tweeter network, it is a shot in the dark.
As it stands, that tweeter is pretty well behaved past 20kHz. If you were to try replacing it, which frankly I would not advise, you would need to find a Tweeter that will be an exact match in T/S Parameters and performance in order to properly work in the existing circuit. Otherwise, the option will almost assuredly require a new Tweeter XO be designed, which may lead to modifications in the remaining XO circuits as well.

Again, technically speaking it can be done, but not just by simply dropping a new driver in the box.

 

[shadyJ]

Do not replace the tweeters. If you want to boost the highs, use parametric equalization.

 

[lovinthehd]

Do other speakers work better for your aging ears? Any examples of a speaker you're thinking of? Increasing treble isn't something I'm considering doing as my ears age....even tho I live alone (if I lived with others that could be torture for anyone with intact hearing too). Seems your speakers are capable....maybe use specific eq rather than Audyssey for more flexibility on just what to implement.....are you using Audyssey via the Editor App, tho?

 

[Pogre]

Makes a lot more sense to upgrade the whole speaker(s)...

 

[Swerd]

For the reasons that ryanosaur and shadyJ said above, don't replace your tweeters.

Before you could even consider replacing tweeters, you would have to know the details of those 3-way ACI Panorama speakers. What is the mid-range driver? At what frequency does it cross over to the tweeter? What are the details of both the mid-range and tweeter crossover networks?

You mentioned that room correction software boosts +5 dB @ 4 kHz and +6 dB above 8 kHz, which improves them but sounds somewhat forced. The 8 kHz and higher frequencies are probably within the tweeter's range. But what about the 4 kHz in the range? Is that covered by the mid-range, the tweeter, or both?

What information led you to believe your tweeters are to blame? Their frequency response curve (below) looks pretty good to me.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've owned and used a pair of ACI (Audio Concepts Inc) Panorama speakers and an Essence center speaker along with the Maestro 15" sub for a number of years built by Mike Dzurko. They are 3-way designs, built like tanks, have beautiful cabinets, use high quality components, and for the most part still sound great. However, the Scan-Speak D2905/930000 tweeters roll off the high frequencies a little much for my aging hearing. Rather than giving up on the whole set, I was wondering if I might upgrade the tweeters in favor of something with a little flatter response. Room correction software like Audyssey reference curve boosts +5 dB @ 4 kHz and +6 dB above 8 kHz, which improves them but sounds somewhat forced. The tweeters are easy to remove if I were to replace them. I'm looking for helpful advice, especially from DIY speaker builders/audio experts. Thanks in advance

Those tweeters are among the very best available and very good value for money. They are way up the top of my go to Tweeter for my designs. Leave your speakers alone! The HF is very smooth with NO significant roll off and they have a very low Fs.

 

[Jbrunwa]

For the reasons that ryanosaur and shadyJ said above, don't replace your tweeters.

Before you could even consider replacing tweeters, you would have to know the details of those 3-way ACI Panorama speakers. What is the mid-range driver? At what frequency does it cross over to the tweeter? What are the details of both the mid-range and tweeter crossover networks?

You mentioned that room correction software boosts +5 dB @ 4 kHz and +6 dB above 8 kHz, which improves them but sounds somewhat forced. The 8 kHz and higher frequencies are probably within the tweeter's range. But what about the 4 kHz in the range? Is that covered by the mid-range, the tweeter, or both?

What information led you to believe your tweeters are to blame? Their frequency response curve (below) looks pretty good to me.
View attachment 46456

Thanks. The mid is a Vifa M13SG-09. I dont know any details about the crossover. There is a dip already in the mid speaker which probably explains why I don’t like the BBC dip that Audyssey applies. So I guess that I will just keep using the Audyssey equalization or audition other speakers, as crossover design is above my head.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks. The mid is a Vifa M13SG-09. I dont know any details about the crossover. There is a dip already in the mid speaker which probably explains why I don’t like the BBC dip that Audyssey applies. So I guess that I will just keep using the Audyssey equalization or audition other speakers, as crossover design is above my head.

You can turn that Audyssey dip off with the app editor, if your receiver is recent enough.

 

[Jbrunwa]

You can turn that Audyssey dip off with the app editor, if your receiver is recent enough.

Yes, thanks

 

[Jbrunwa]

For the reasons that ryanosaur and shadyJ said above, don't replace your tweeters.

Before you could even consider replacing tweeters, you would have to know the details of those 3-way ACI Panorama speakers. What is the mid-range driver? At what frequency does it cross over to the tweeter? What are the details of both the mid-range and tweeter crossover networks?

You mentioned that room correction software boosts +5 dB @ 4 kHz and +6 dB above 8 kHz, which improves them but sounds somewhat forced. The 8 kHz and higher frequencies are probably within the tweeter's range. But what about the 4 kHz in the range? Is that covered by the mid-range, the tweeter, or both?

What information led you to believe your tweeters are to blame? Their frequency response curve (below) looks pretty good to me.
View attachment 46456

I assumed the tweeter, but maybe not a good assumption. The mid is a Vifa M13SG-09. Is there a way to tell how much each component contributes at a given frequency without knowing the crossover? Can I use REW with a mike close to the mid vs tweeter to measure that?

 

[lovinthehd]

Can you contact ACI and/or the builder and get details/schematics?

 

[ryanosaur]

Good measurements and Impedance plot could possibly show where the crosses are. Hard to say.

 

[Jbrunwa]

Can you contact ACI and/or the builder and get details/schematics?

They closed up shop some years ago and the principal later retired. I searched online but didn’t find anything useful other than user manuals. If anyone has access to info it would be great

 

[TLS Guy]

They closed up shop some years ago and the principal later retired. I searched online but didn’t find anything useful other than user manuals. If anyone has access to info it would be great

That Vifa mid does have a useable bandwidth of 350Hz to 2 KHz. It does have a dip between 1.2KHz and 1.8 KHz.
The crossover might possibly take care of that. Changing the mid would require a total redesign and build of the crossover. It would require having the speakers. It would be a lot of work and not really worth it.

 

[Jbrunwa]

That Vifa mid does have a useable bandwidth of 350Hz to 2 KHz. It does have a dip between 1.2KHz and 1.8 KHz.
The crossover might possibly take care of that. Changing the mid would require a total redesign and build of the crossover. It would require having the speakers. It would be a lot of work and not really worth it.

Thanks for the expertise and advice. I guess I will audition new speakers.

 

[lukesky518]

I will go against the grain and will post based on personal experience. Find the specs on your current tweeters and also see if the builder added resistors to reduce the tweeter level. You can remove the resistors or replace them with a lower rating, 10 watt resistors are fine. If there aren't any resistors inline with your tweeters you can replace the tweeters them with something just 2 or 3 db more sensitive. Metal dome tweeters are good for aging ears as they give a little more "pop." If its something you are interested in doing, PM me and I can get you there. I have done this multiple times and it always works out excellent. Cheers.

 

[TLS Guy]

I will go against the grain and will post based on personal experience. Find the specs on your current tweeters and also see if the builder added resistors to reduce the tweeter level. You can remove the resistors or replace them with a lower rating, 10 watt resistors are fine. If there aren't any resistors inline with your tweeters you can replace the tweeters them with something just 2 or 3 db more sensitive. Metal dome tweeters are good for aging ears as they give a little more "pop." If its something you are interested in doing, PM me and I can get you there. I have done this multiple times and it always works out excellent. Cheers.

That is what is called a Frankenstein speaker after that kind of cobble. Life is much more complicated than that. For a start you have not paid attention to the acoustic responses of the drivers, nor the impedance curves. Your methods are just crude in the extreme.

 

[D Murphy]

You must own one of the very few Panorama's sold. I couldn't find any info on them other than a pic or two. If you lived in Bethesda, MD I would be happy to mod them for you, but I kind of doubt that. Maybe it's time to put those on the auction block.

 

[Jbrunwa]

You must own one of the very few Panorama's sold. I couldn't find any info on them other than a pic or two. If you lived in Bethesda, MD I would be happy to mod them for you, but I kind of doubt that. Maybe it's time to put those on the auction block.

Too bad. It must have been difficult to survive as boutique speaker manufacturer over the past decade or so, but I always try to support artisans. I attached some photos of my pair. I love the look and the hardwood sides (mine have the cherry finish). I will keep working on equalization. I’ve had poor results with Audyssey so I will try Dirac.

EDIT: The tweeter is Scan-speak D2905/930000, mid is a Vifa M13SG-09, bass is a Peerless HDS 850594

Specifications
Frequency response: 42-20kHz ±3db, 100-10kHz ±1.5db
Nominal impedance: 8 ohms, minimum impedance 4 ohms, low reactance
Sensitivity: 87db 1 watt/1 meter
Bass-loading: Fourth order vented system
Recommended RMS Power: 50 to 250 watts per channel
Tweeter: Hand-damped silk 1” dome with aperiodic rear chamber, cast face plate and ferro-fluid Bass-mid: 5 1⁄4" cast-frame, rubber surround, double magnet, long-throw shielded
Woofer: 6 1/2" cast-frame, rubber surround, long throw, shielded
Cabinet: MDF Construction: 1” Front Panel, 3/4” Top, Bottom and Rear. Multiple density sides include 3/4” MDF with added 3/4” solid hardwood sides. Internally damped with 2” convoluted foam. Finishes: Hardwood sides available in clear lacquer on American oak or black oak. (Optional cherry, maple, walnut and rose walnut finishes also available).
Inputs: Gold plated binding posts
Dimensions: 23 1/4" tall, 9 1/2" wide, 15 1/2" deep
Weight: 53 lbs each