FTC to Kill Amplifier Rule: Help us Protect it by Feb 16th, 2021!

[jbiz42]

Obviously standardization and accountability are needed, but why would you want an inefficient, ineffective, coercive monopoly to do this? Hint: the whole reason for the campaign (expiration) is a evidence of this. There are plenty of examples of private regulation (IIHS, UL, CR, etc.) which can compete (thus improving while decreasing cost) without extorting their budget. Coercive monopolies have no motivation to do their work efficiently, well, or cost-effectively.

 

[3db]

Obviously standardization and accountability are needed, but why would you want an inefficient, ineffective, coercive monopoly to do this? Hint: the whole reason for the campaign (expiration) is a evidence of this. There are plenty of examples of private regulation (IIHS, UL, CR, etc.) which can compete (thus improving while decreasing cost) without extorting their budget. Coercive monopolies have no motivation to do their work efficiently, well, or cost-effectively.

Because the governmemt is not a coercive monoply.

 

[highfigh]

Obviously standardization and accountability are needed, but why would you want an inefficient, ineffective, coercive monopoly to do this? Hint: the whole reason for the campaign (expiration) is a evidence of this. There are plenty of examples of private regulation (IIHS, UL, CR, etc.) which can compete (thus improving while decreasing cost) without extorting their budget. Coercive monopolies have no motivation to do their work efficiently, well, or cost-effectively.

UL exists, in part, so the insurance industry can point to something as a way to deny claims that were caused by unsafe products, methods and materials. IIHS is there so millions of people won't die on the roads and Consumer Reports (if that's what you meant by 'CR') is a commercial entity and they even have a store-

The11reviews | Review Products and Rating

Review Products and Rating

consumerreports.store

The FTC is a government agency that exists, to make sure trade practices are used with some level of honesty. Lying and fudging the numbers in an effort to confuse people who may buy the products is one of the ways someone falls under their rules.

EDIT-

BTW- UL doesn't approve anything, they add or subtract items from the list of devices that pass their tests. Approval would expose them to liability.

 

[mtrot]

I just submitted my comment.

 

[jbiz42]

Because the governmemt is not a coercive monoply.

How is it not?

 

[jbiz42]

UL exists, in part, so the insurance industry can point to something as a way to deny claims that were caused by unsafe products, methods and materials. IIHS is there so millions of people won't die on the roads and Consumer Reports (if that's what you meant by 'CR') is a commercial entity and they even have a store-

The11reviews | Review Products and Rating

Review Products and Rating

consumerreports.store

The FTC is a government agency that exists, to make sure trade practices are used with some level of honesty. Lying and fudging the numbers in an effort to confuse people who may buy the products is one of the ways someone falls under their rules.

EDIT-

BTW- UL doesn't approve anything, they add or subtract items from the list of devices that pass their tests. Approval would expose them to liability.

Was speaking more generally. There’s also IEEE, AES, CEA, etc. The point is that the FTC may well not be correct, and is subject to lobbying and other conflicts of interest. If I don’t agree with the level of performance quality they mandate I shouldn’t be forced to pay for their misguided efforts.

 

[highfigh]

Was speaking more generally. There’s also IEEE, AES, CEA, etc. The point is that the FTC may well not be correct, and is subject to lobbying and other conflicts of interest. If I don’t agree with the level of performance quality they mandate I shouldn’t be forced to pay for their misguided efforts.

The groups you show are for the industries, not consumer-facing rating organizations. They exist more in an attempt to standardize and define than to protect consumers.

WRT your disagreement with their mandate- what are your options? The FTC standards only work IF they're enforced (this is an important point)- the items aren't to be advertised in a misleading way and if they're sold by using bad info AND the FTC receives enough complaints, they investigate. They haven't really done much to challenge a lot of the BS in advertising, though.

Excessive governmental regulation isn't good but if you have survived a major car crash, thank the NHTSA for making cars safer.

 

[jbiz42]

The groups you show are for the industries, not consumer-facing rating organizations. They exist more in an attempt to standardize and define than to protect consumers.

WRT your disagreement with their mandate- what are your options? The FTC standards only work IF they're enforced (this is an important point)- the items aren't to be advertised in a misleading way and if they're sold by using bad info AND the FTC receives enough complaints, they investigate. They haven't really done much to challenge a lot of the BS in advertising, though.

Excessive governmental regulation isn't good but if you have survived a major car crash, thank the NHTSA for making cars safer.

What about the people who didn’t survive a crash? NHTSA didn’t help them. Not to mention those who couldn’t afford a car but could have tolerated a higher risk for a cheaper one. The point is that an unaccountable bureaucracy sets an arbitrary level of goodness and threatens those who wish to engage in voluntary transactions for a different level of goodness. On top of that, who’s to say the FTC sets the optimal level of goodness? And lobbyists are much more likely to influence their regulations than consumer desire anyway.

CR is a consumer organization, and consumers use IEEE standards all the time (e.g. routers). Even AES (digital audio interfaces) and CEA (check subwoofers at Best Buy). But that’s beside the point. If private agencies were allowed to take the place of coercive monopolies, people could have more choice and be better protected without extortion or threats.

 

[Verdinut]

Is the rule enforced???

I hate to say it, but if the rule is not enforced, then it should go.

Either enforce the rule or remove the rule.

As a matter of fact, they haven't been enforcing rules on consumer equipment for many years.

If a manufacturer does not publish a true detailed performance of its amplifiers, unless we have access to a serious review, such as the ones which are reported on this site or Audio Science Review's site for instance, we just shouldn't consider purchasing the product.

 

[highfigh]

What about the people who didn’t survive a crash? NHTSA didn’t help them. Not to mention those who couldn’t afford a car but could have tolerated a higher risk for a cheaper one. The point is that an unaccountable bureaucracy sets an arbitrary level of goodness and threatens those who wish to engage in voluntary transactions for a different level of goodness. On top of that, who’s to say the FTC sets the optimal level of goodness? And lobbyists are much more likely to influence their regulations than consumer desire anyway.

CR is a consumer organization, and consumers use IEEE standards all the time (e.g. routers). Even AES (digital audio interfaces) and CEA (check subwoofers at Best Buy). But that’s beside the point. If private agencies were allowed to take the place of coercive monopolies, people could have more choice and be better protected without extortion or threats.

FFS! What about the people who didn't survive a crash? Can EVERYONE be saved? What about cars that can't limit speed, so the asshats who flee the Police can't drive too fast for their ability? Why not let the car decide how fast is 'safe' and slow it if it decides the driver can't handle the speed? Why not just slowly float people in foam balls, so they will bounce off of others, harmlessly?

It's not about you, it's about the masses.

Consumers don't check IEEE or anything else for their purchases, other than the ones who make sure it does what they need and only then, if they understand it. Ask 1000 random people about WiFi standards and performance differences and you'll find that a small % know. Ask about cabling and the number is probably much smaller, if the threads about which cable to use are any indication- they care more about price, stupid gadgets and brand than whether it's allowed for plenum or in-wall use.

People use a lot of crap without knowing anything about hos it works or why it may/may not be right for their needs. XLR cables is a great example of this.

How is a government agency a monopoly? It's not a commercial enterprise that has gobbles up the competition in order to be the 800 pound Gorilla.

 

[highfigh]

I left a comment on the FTCs webpage. Before the regulations were in place, I remember trying to explain to people, why they don’t have the amplifier power that they thought they bought. Julian Hirsch taught me will. Thanks for ringing the alarm Gene.
Cheers
Joe

Julian Hirsch taught you well? Really? He wrote the article about using a green magic marker on the edge of CDs as a way to make them track and sound better. There was nothing mentioned about it being humor, satire, sarcasm, etc. That was the last time I read anything in Audio Magazine.

 

[highfigh]

Is the rule enforced???

I hate to say it, but if the rule is not enforced, then it should go.

Either enforce the rule or remove the rule.

I'm not sure the US has enough people to handle the demand for false claims.

The rules are used for comparison- if the manufacturers or dealers refuse to show their specs in that manner, people should know enough that they'll avoid those brands and sellers.

 

[Trell]

Julian Hirsch taught you well? Really? He wrote the article about using a green magic marker on the edge of CDs as a way to make them track and sound better. There was nothing mentioned about it being humor, satire, sarcasm, etc. That was the last time I read anything in Audio Magazine.

Julian clearly selected the wrong color of is magic marker: It should have been pink!

 

[highfigh]

Julian clearly selected the wrong color of is magic marker: It should have been pink!

I know someone who worked at a shop that sells AudioQuest- when I mentioned using a magic marker, he went into a spiel about how it helps the error correction work more efficiently. At that point, I stopped listening. He was one of the kids who came to the stereo store where I had worked and needed advice/info because he didn't understand much of it when he was about 16-17 years old. He bought into the marketing later, but he also showed the AQ price list to me and asked why I didn't sell that brand. I told him it was because I have a conscience.

 

[jbiz42]

FFS! What about the people who didn't survive a crash? Can EVERYONE be saved? What about cars that can't limit speed, so the asshats who flee the Police can't drive too fast for their ability? Why not let the car decide how fast is 'safe' and slow it if it decides the driver can't handle the speed? Why not just slowly float people in foam balls, so they will bounce off of others, harmlessly?

It's not about you, it's about the masses.

Consumers don't check IEEE or anything else for their purchases, other than the ones who make sure it does what they need and only then, if they understand it. Ask 1000 random people about WiFi standards and performance differences and you'll find that a small % know. Ask about cabling and the number is probably much smaller, if the threads about which cable to use are any indication- they care more about price, stupid gadgets and brand than whether it's allowed for plenum or in-wall use.

People use a lot of crap without knowing anything about hos it works or why it may/may not be right for their needs. XLR cables is a great example of this.

How is a government agency a monopoly? It's not a commercial enterprise that has gobbles up the competition in order to be the 800 pound Gorilla.

The masses deserve to have a choice too. If they care about performance, they can do a some research. Even audio professionals may not agree on the criteria anyway.

Not sure what is the point of your FFS paragraph with the hyperbolic straw men; doesn’t justify arbitrary thresholds by unaccountable bureaucrats. And even though there are plenty of reasons why private regulation is better than government regulation in any case, this is audio for god’s sake. It’s not a public good and it’s certainly not going to kill anyone. Since enforcement involves potential for violence, it seems pretty ludicrous for involving that in hifi.

FTC is a monopoly because they don’t allow competing regulations from other organizations which consumers and companies can choose voluntarily. The FTC doesn’t have to earn its budget by out-competing other regulation bodies. Instead, it can initiate violence (even if through proxy) on nonviolent parties engaging in a consensual transaction.


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[mtrycrafts]

Julian Hirsch taught you well? Really? He wrote the article about using a green magic marker on the edge of CDs as a way to make them track and sound better. There was nothing mentioned about it being humor, satire, sarcasm, etc. That was the last time I read anything in Audio Magazine.

Do you have a link to that article?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... If private agencies were allowed to take the place of coercive monopolies, people could have more choice and be better protected without extortion or threats.

Really? Would that apply to the oil industry?, The homeopathic industry?
Oh, wait the latter is not regulated, yet. They do such a wonderful job.

Nothing prevents the oil industry from creating more rigorous rules that they would follow on their own. Oh, wait, it would never happen, they want less regulations, pollute the environment, the masses, who cares about oil spills.
Or for that matter, the power companies?
I suppose private industry would do a super job on their own, right?

We don't need no stinklin regulations.

 

[jbiz42]

Really? Would that apply to the oil industry?, The homeopathic industry?
Oh, wait the latter is not regulated, yet. They do such a wonderful job.

Nothing prevents the oil industry from creating more rigorous rules that they would follow on their own. Oh, wait, it would never happen, they want less regulations, pollute the environment, the masses, who cares about oil spills.
Or for that matter, the power companies?
I suppose private industry would do a super job on their own, right?

We don't need no stinklin regulations.

More hyperbolic straw men. I never said that industry should regulate itself or regulation wasn’t needed. Just not easily corruptible violent regulation. Or do you think lobbying is a conspiracy theory?

Right, really put the hurt on those oil companies we subsidize and fight endless wars for. And the healthcare industry that got worse and pricier the more government regulated them. Good thing the government quashed the ability for individuals to sue industry for pollution so that they could install their employees in the very regulatory agencies overseeing them and write the legislation our representatives read after passing.

Imagine thinking that government should tell people what amplifiers they can buy, or that audio specifications should apply at gunpoint...


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[mtrycrafts]

Imagine thinking that government should tell people what amplifiers they can buy, or that audio specifications should apply at gunpoint...


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Is that what the FTC be telling consumers what to buy or just what an amp can deliver, like the fuel mileage requirement for cars. Or, what ingredient is in a product?

You must be misunderstanding what the FTC rules are on amps are. What do you have against it, how it is tested? Who decides on trhe testing condition? What?

 

[head_unit]

I still want an amplifier that I can use for welding.

Mark Levinson, though I forget the model. And the Alpine 3500 I think the model was, they did demos like that.