The Dave Ramsey Dichotomy...

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
On average, people with lower credit scores make more bad decisions than people with a good score and it doesn't need to involve handling money- many times in retail, people working at checkout will allow friends to leave without ringing up items and it happens often. In food service, especially in bars, free drinks are common, especially if the liquor dispensers aren't metered and cameras aren't aimed at the register. Once an employee is trusted by a business owner of a small retail operation, the place is ripe for the picking if the employees' backgrounds aren't checked. Lots of goods leave through the back door and it literally kills businesses without anyone literally dipping into the till.
We are talking about FICO based car insurance premium pricing. There are OTHER metrics. If what the insurance companies claim is true: Poor FICO = risky driving then it stands to reason that risky driving = points on a license and claims made therefore other metrics can be used. I'm glad some states have banned the practice.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I think the price of cars is insane and I can make a lot of the repairs, so I do- even if it involves fuel injection. If I need help, I know people, so that's not a problem. I ought an Astro cargo van in March, 2011 and it's still going strong with 234K- it had 78K when I bought it.
A LOT of car manufacturers are trying (and succeeding) at making cars almost impossible to work on yourself unless you have a lot of specialty tools and a large garage space that will let you work.

I have tons of tools, but my truck is something like 5 feet longer than my garage. If I have to do a big project, the weather has to be on my side. I won't ever be standing outside in freezing weather melting ice off of parts with a heat gun again. That wasn't fun.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
This is why the phrase "it's expensive to be poor" exists. Employers can't give someone a better job due to bad credit, and that someone can't make their credit better because they can't get a better job. It's a crappy cycle that a lot of people are stuck in.
You can have a lousy FICO score for a lot of reasons other than being poor, but it's expensive to be a lot of things in the US. And in some states some surprising people get protected. For example, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against overweight people. Only Michigan and a few cities (naturally, San Francisco) prohibit not hiring someone or firing someone because the employer thinks they're too fat. Employers are allowed to charge you more for benefits if you have an unhealthy lifestyle, like you smoke. California, to name one state, has banned questions on job applications about criminal records. In California you're also not allowed to ask for previous salary information. But if you're in red states often anything that's not federally illegal is fine with them. FICO scores, criminal records, medical histories, whatever. A lot of people get pretty far down the road before they realize that life is easier if you straighten up and fly right.

There was a guy at the gym a couple of weeks ago who I overheard complaining about money issues to a friend of his. I would guess the complainer was in his 20s. He had what looked to me like thousands of dollars worth of very artful ink on his arms and legs. Who knows what I couldn't see. Perhaps jinjuku should start a youtube channel about investing versus tattooing.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
You can have a lousy FICO score for a lot of reasons other than being poor, but it's expensive to be a lot of things in the US. And in some states some surprising people get protected. For example, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against overweight people. Only Michigan and a few cities (naturally, San Francisco) prohibit not hiring someone or firing someone because the employer thinks they're too fat. Employers are allowed to charge you more for benefits if you have an unhealthy lifestyle, like you smoke. California, to name one state, has banned questions on job applications about criminal records. In California you're also not allowed to ask for previous salary information. But if you're in red states often anything that's not federally illegal is fine with them. FICO scores, criminal records, medical histories, whatever. A lot of people get pretty far down the road before they realize that life is easier if you straighten up and fly right.

There was a guy at the gym a couple of weeks ago who I overheard complaining about money issues to a friend of his. I would guess the complainer was in his 20s. He had what looked to me like thousands of dollars worth of very artful ink on his arms and legs. Who knows what I couldn't see. Perhaps jinjuku should start a youtube channel about investing versus tattooing.
True, there are lots of situations that can cause you to be broke, or to not be chosen for a job.

I'd watch that youtube channel. I can show it to my brother in law.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
We are talking about FICO based car insurance premium pricing. There are OTHER metrics. If what the insurance companies claim is true: Poor FICO = risky driving then it stands to reason that risky driving = points on a license and claims made therefore other metrics can be used. I'm glad some states have banned the practice.
This might be an urban legend, but I've heard that insurance companies use AI to predict how much they can raise the rates of any given customer before the customer will switch companies.

If they are not doing this, I hereby claim exclusive rights in this idea!

*The standard lame patent layer humor disclaimer applies to this post.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
A lot of what he says is good common sense. Live within your means, keep looking for better paying jobs, if you have to finance a bunch of stuff then you can't actually afford it. His debt snowball makes sense from a psychological view point (but not mathematically). $500 a month for 40 years invested in the market at the index rate is $5 million. So a car payment (one of his best pieces of advice).

What he gets wrong, and it's bad advice, is 15 vs 30 year mortgage. You should take a 30 year and invest the difference. Don't pay your mortgage off early. You are robbing yourself of investment opportunity.

Credit Score. Yes you need one. It's a tough row to hoe if you don't and no you don't have go into debt to have a great one. Just a history of timely payments. I put someone on as a named user on my cards and in 60 days they were able to shop their car insurance and go from $179 a month to $85. They'd been driving for 20 years w/o incident, ticket, points. They just sucked at money matters and had a personal bankruptcy.

Credit Cards. If you're bad with money you'll be even worse with a CC. But I have three and put my Cell/Internet on one, Netflix on another, Grocery and Gas on a third and setup to auto-pay the statement balance every month. These are all expenses that I incur regardless. I just use them to my advantage.

I watched a few of his videos and understand I'm not his target audience but some people he's not helping out as much as he could.
My favorite advice of his, "If you will live like no one else, then you can live like no one else".

Also, "if you can't pay cash, you can't afford it".
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
My favorite advice of his, "If you will live like no one else, then you can live like no one else".

Also, "if you can't pay cash, you can't afford it".
Those are his main points I'm a fan of. Especially the second.

My mom told me it was a great feeling to pay for her "last" house in cash.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Those are his main points I'm a fan of. Especially the second.

My mom told me it was a great feeling to pay for her "last" house in cash.
I agree when one has reached a certain point in life, say upon entering into retirement. But when starting out very few have the means so having a mortgage and a car payment(within ones means) is perfectly acceptable.

Now when it comes to 'toys and hobbies' I agree , if you can't pay cash you really can't afford it.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I agree when one has reached a certain point in life, say upon entering into retirement. But when starting out very few have the means so having a mortgage and a car payment(within ones means) is perfectly acceptable.

Now when it comes to 'toys and hobbies' I agree , if you can't pay cash you really can't afford it.
Right. Those would be my exceptions as well. Even if you get a cheap car, most can't afford cash when starting out. I just paid off one of mine and the next will be in a few months. I won't buy another one unless I have cash to pay off at least half. Lucky for me my cars are both newer and in good condition.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I agree when one has reached a certain point in life, say upon entering into retirement. But when starting out very few have the means so having a mortgage and a car payment(within ones means) is perfectly acceptable.

Now when it comes to 'toys and hobbies' I agree , if you can't pay cash you really can't afford it.
I will concede on the mortgage, but not on the vehicles. It goes back to his point, let some other sucker take the depreciation hit on the new car, then you scoop up a used car with cash, that is within your budget.

It simply does not make financial sense to have a recurring payment for an item that depreciates every month! Upkeep on a good used car is much cheaper and much better financial strategy.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I will concede on the mortgage, but not on the vehicles. It goes back to his point, let some other sucker take the depreciation hit on the new car, then you scoop up a used car with cash, that is within your budget.

It simply does not make financial sense to have a recurring payment for an item that depreciates every month! Upkeep on a good used car is much cheaper and much better financial strategy.
True, but I got my truck used and it still cost $18k. I didn't have that much cash, but I did get a 4yr loan that'll be paid off early. Interest wasn't too much so it worked out well for me. Especially since I could sell it tomorrow and make money.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I think if you are living within your budget it’s doable to buy cars cash but obviously it takes time to set money aside each month. You might set $1000 a month aside for 36 mo. for example.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A LOT of car manufacturers are trying (and succeeding) at making cars almost impossible to work on yourself unless you have a lot of specialty tools and a large garage space that will let you work.

I have tons of tools, but my truck is something like 5 feet longer than my garage. If I have to do a big project, the weather has to be on my side. I won't ever be standing outside in freezing weather melting ice off of parts with a heat gun again. That wasn't fun.
Working outside in bad weather definitely sucks, but it's really not the manufacturers who want to make it difficult, it's the requirements to produce low emissions and, while an engine with a carb can be efficient, it's not as consistently efficient and trouble-free or as easy to start. Starting a car used to require a technique, known only to the few who drove it- some forgot and killed their starter/battery and flooded the crap out of their engine and now, people expect it to start without thinking about it and not thinking is what people have become good at. Now, lawnmowers and snowblowers are coming with fuel injection- I saw one video and it took two pulls to get his new EFI snowblower to start and my carbureted blowers and mower take one pull. I showed my neighbor how to make starting easier and hers is only a few months old, but by using the manual's instructions, it wouldn't start. I think I pulled the cord 6" before it fired up.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think if you are living within your budget it’s doable to buy cars cash but obviously it takes time to set money aside each month. You might set $1000 a month aside for 36 mo. for example.
For that money, I would rather drive a good used car and buy real estate.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This might be an urban legend, but I've heard that insurance companies use AI to predict how much they can raise the rates of any given customer before the customer will switch companies.

If they are not doing this, I hereby claim exclusive rights in this idea!

*The standard lame patent layer humor disclaimer applies to this post.
The history of insurance and reducing risk is far older than many think-

 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I will concede on the mortgage, but not on the vehicles. It goes back to his point, let some other sucker take the depreciation hit on the new car, then you scoop up a used car with cash, that is within your budget.

It simply does not make financial sense to have a recurring payment for an item that depreciates every month! Upkeep on a good used car is much cheaper and much better financial strategy.
Let's not get carried away and become one-size-fits-all people like Ramsey and Orman. Personally, I wouldn't consider buying a used car, and haven't in over 40 years. I won't even buy a dealer's lot car except under duress, I custom order them. It made no financial sense to have children either. Being thrifty is great, and I am in a lot of ways, but the reason to be thrifty is to be able to enjoy the things and experiences that are important to you.
 
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