Upgrading Entry Gear

[Garplo]

You could spend a lot more
Money and not get anything better that system is amazing ..

I’d stick to getting more subwoofers, that’s a high end system .. mine is entry level and garbage compared to what you have ..
I’ll probably never be able to to afford a rotel amp and paradigm or top of the line.
You got like a 10-15grand or higher system wow

Rotel RSX-1562 A/V Receiver

Audio Performance Video Performance Features

www.soundandvision.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Kingnoob..... Really glad to hear I didn't waste my money 10 years ago. Very relieved to hear. I have always liked my speakers and thought they performed well for what I paid for them. I did listen to quite a few speakers when I bought them and they were just above what I could afford at the time. The wife was carrying a paper bag around...... The Rotel has and a great amp for 2 channel listening and home theater. I originally wanted the Rotel 200w amp and separate receiver, as thats what I auditioned them with... But the 200w Rotel was more than double the price of the I00w Integrated Rotel. I always though the 200 would drive them better.

 

[nathan_h]

The good news is that extra 100 watts would have meant just 3db more output, ie, wouldn’t have made a difference with those speakers.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks Kingnoob..... Really glad to hear I didn't waste my money 10 years ago. Very relieved to hear. I have always liked my speakers and thought they performed well for what I paid for them. I did listen to quite a few speakers when I bought them and they were just above what I could afford at the time. The wife was carrying a paper bag around...... The Rotel has and a great amp for 2 channel listening and home theater. I originally wanted the Rotel 200w amp and separate receiver, as thats what I auditioned them with... But the 200w Rotel was more than double the price of the I00w Integrated Rotel. I always though the 200 would drive them better.

For the record I've never heard your speakers but they look very nice and I'll bet they sound very, very good. That's why I linked Salk Sound for you to consider. Salk speakers are top of the line and very hard to beat for the money. That said, I don't think what you have now are bad speakers at all. I just think that if a sound quality upgrade is what you're after then speakers are a better upgrade path than amplification.

 

[Eppie]

I'm curious why people are recommending a subwoofer upgrade when the poster is looking to improve music listening? How much content is there below 80Hz in your average song? I'm talking rock'n'roll, not pipe organ. I know Audioholics recommends 2 subs for a good size home theatre, so a second Paradigm sub might end up being better than replacing the existing one for home theatre use, or replace the Paradigm with a couple others?

For music listening though, I would side with Pogre in that a speaker upgrade would have the biggest impact. I auditioned the Paradigms when I bought my home theatre setup and personally I would have to spend a lot more money to get to the next level. I brought a wide variety of music to the shop and I really like their sound. My personal recommendation is take your time. Think about what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a wider or deeper sound stage? More life-like vocals? Something lacking in the bottom end or is it the mids or highs that need refining? With that goal in mind, visit some hi-fi shops and try listening to a good variety of speakers. If your room allows for it, check out electrostatics or reflecting speakers like Ohm Walsh (if in your area) as they offer a very different experience. If you find that nothing significantly improves over the Paradigms, then you can look at tweaking what you have, whether it be amplification, extra subs, or room treatments. And if you're streaming music from a computer, maybe look into Roon and Roon enabled devices. I know, for me, half the fun is in the research.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm curious why people are recommending a subwoofer upgrade when the poster is looking to improve music listening? How much content is there below 80Hz in your average song? I'm talking rock'n'roll, not pipe organ. I know Audioholics recommends 2 subs for a good size home theatre, so a second Paradigm sub might end up being better than replacing the existing one for home theatre use, or replace the Paradigm with a couple others?

For music listening though, I would side with Pogre in that a speaker upgrade would have the biggest impact. I auditioned the Paradigms when I bought my home theatre setup and personally I would have to spend a lot more money to get to the next level. I brought a wide variety of music to the shop and I really like their sound. My personal recommendation is take your time. Think about what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a wider or deeper sound stage? More life-like vocals? Something lacking in the bottom end or is it the mids or highs that need refining? With that goal in mind, visit some hi-fi shops and try listening to a good variety of speakers. If your room allows for it, check out electrostatics or reflecting speakers like Ohm Walsh (if in your area) as they offer a very different experience. If you find that nothing significantly improves over the Paradigms, then you can look at tweaking what you have, whether it be amplification, extra subs, or room treatments. And if you're streaming music from a computer, maybe look into Roon and Roon enabled devices. I know, for me, half the fun is in the research.

Well, a sub upgrade is a speaker upgrade. I find plenty of content below 80hz....that would be a terrible speaker in my mind that had an f3 of 80hz!

 

[Eppie]

Well, a sub upgrade is a speaker upgrade. I find plenty of content below 80hz....that would be a terrible speaker in my mind that had an f3 of 80hz!

I'm a bass player, so I can appreciate a speaker with good bottom end. For music, though, I think I concentrated on life-like vocals with my last purchase. If the vocals fall flat, the instrumentation won't make up for it. Well, unless you're only into instrumental music. The 80Hz was more in reference to crossover frequencies on subwoofers as opposed to speaker frequency response.
Here's a link to his speakers:
https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100
They have pretty good bass extension on their own and if paired with a sub I would likely use a low crossover setting. I just can't imagine a better sub having that great an impact on music listening with these speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm a bass player, so I can appreciate a speaker with good bottom end. For music, though, I think I concentrated on life-like vocals with my last purchase. If the vocals fall flat, the instrumentation won't make up for it. Well, unless you're only into instrumental music. Here's a link to his speakers:
https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100
They have pretty good bass extension on their own and if paired with a sub I would likely use a low crossover setting. I just can't imagine a better sub having that great an impact on music listening with these speakers.

Yeah I checked out his speakers before. Speakers aren't as flexible for placement as subs, tho....schroeder frequency and all that. Low crossover, why particularly? Subs are more capable in the low end than those speakers in any case.

Not big on vocals myself, but my speakers do need to be able to do everything fairly well including vocals. Even if I had true full range speakers I'd still employ subs most likely, altho I could perhaps survive with just a 7ch layer of JTR Noesis RT215s.....

 

[Pogre]

I'm curious why people are recommending a subwoofer upgrade when the poster is looking to improve music listening? How much content is there below 80Hz in your average song? I'm talking rock'n'roll, not pipe organ. I know Audioholics recommends 2 subs for a good size home theatre, so a second Paradigm sub might end up being better than replacing the existing one for home theatre use, or replace the Paradigm with a couple others?

For music listening though, I would side with Pogre in that a speaker upgrade would have the biggest impact. I auditioned the Paradigms when I bought my home theatre setup and personally I would have to spend a lot more money to get to the next level. I brought a wide variety of music to the shop and I really like their sound. My personal recommendation is take your time. Think about what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a wider or deeper sound stage? More life-like vocals? Something lacking in the bottom end or is it the mids or highs that need refining? With that goal in mind, visit some hi-fi shops and try listening to a good variety of speakers. If your room allows for it, check out electrostatics or reflecting speakers like Ohm Walsh (if in your area) as they offer a very different experience. If you find that nothing significantly improves over the Paradigms, then you can look at tweaking what you have, whether it be amplification, extra subs, or room treatments. And if you're streaming music from a computer, maybe look into Roon and Roon enabled devices. I know, for me, half the fun is in the research.

After my speakers, going from a pair of undersized cheaper subs to more appropriate ones for my space actually made quite a dramatic impact to my music. I do use my system for home theater but I'm music first all the way so that's how I buy. Dialed in properly a good sub adds weight, texture and depth, and should never be boomy or in your face. Dirty or underpowered bass has a way of sneaking into the whole frequency band and it's hard to pick up on it with our ears.

I didn't know I was hearing distortion until it was gone! We just don't hear it the same way we do with higher frequencies and it's harder to detect. My experience was cleaner, more detailed sound across the board. It actually caught me off guard because in a way the new, larger subs were perceptually quieter with less distortion. At first I thought something was wrong until it dawned on me how much cleaner everything sounded.

 

[Pogre]

I'm a bass player, so I can appreciate a speaker with good bottom end. For music, though, I think I concentrated on life-like vocals with my last purchase. If the vocals fall flat, the instrumentation won't make up for it. Well, unless you're only into instrumental music. The 80Hz was more in reference to crossover frequencies on subwoofers as opposed to speaker frequency response.
Here's a link to his speakers:
https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100
They have pretty good bass extension on their own and if paired with a sub I would likely use a low crossover setting. I just can't imagine a better sub having that great an impact on music listening with these speakers.

Nobody here is suggesting his speakers suck, lol. I'm gonna beat the same drum tho, I think in this case a sub upgrade will offer more sonically than an amp or receiver upgrade. He does have a small-ish sub for the space.

 

[Movie2099]

Yeah I checked out his speakers before. Speakers aren't as flexible for placement as subs, tho....schroeder frequency and all that. Low crossover, why particularly? Subs are more capable in the low end than those speakers in any case.

Not big on vocals myself, but my speakers do need to be able to do everything fairly well including vocals. Even if I had true full range speakers I'd still employ subs most likely, altho I could perhaps survive with just a 7ch layer of JTR Noesis RT215s.....

Just 7? We have to pump those numbers up. I'm thinking more like 12-215's with 4-JTR 4000 Subs.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just 7? We have to pump those numbers up. I'm thinking more like 12-215's with 4-JTR 4000 Subs.

Hanging them off the ceiling is just too much work....

 

[Eppie]

Hanging them off the ceiling is just too much work....

OK, thanks for the explanations guys. There's some logic in that. My sub is probably the weakest link in my current system, so some good food for thought.

 

[Pogre]

OK, thanks for the explanations guys. There's some logic in that. My sub is probably the weakest link in my current system, so some good food for thought.

Sure. I'll tell ya, when I first got serious about home audio I had a lot of misconceptions about what makes for better sound. These guys twisted my arm on the sub thing too and I resisted, but finally gave in and went big. It was a nice surprise to hear more of an improvement than I expected after everything was dialed in. That's why I'm so insistent about it. I was that guy too, wondering how a sub upgrade would make my music sound better? I know it's a hard sell.

 

[nathan_h]

I'm curious why people are recommending a subwoofer upgrade when the poster is looking to improve music listening? How much content is there below 80Hz in your average song? I'm talking rock'n'roll, not pipe organ. I know Audioholics recommends 2 subs for a good size home theatre, so a second Paradigm sub might end up being better than replacing the existing one for home theatre use, or replace the Paradigm with a couple others?

For music listening though, I would side with Pogre in that a speaker upgrade would have the biggest impact. I auditioned the Paradigms when I bought my home theatre setup and personally I would have to spend a lot more money to get to the next level. I brought a wide variety of music to the shop and I really like their sound. My personal recommendation is take your time. Think about what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a wider or deeper sound stage? More life-like vocals? Something lacking in the bottom end or is it the mids or highs that need refining? With that goal in mind, visit some hi-fi shops and try listening to a good variety of speakers. If your room allows for it, check out electrostatics or reflecting speakers like Ohm Walsh (if in your area) as they offer a very different experience. If you find that nothing significantly improves over the Paradigms, then you can look at tweaking what you have, whether it be amplification, extra subs, or room treatments. And if you're streaming music from a computer, maybe look into Roon and Roon enabled devices. I know, for me, half the fun is in the research.

About a third of the audio spectrum is below 120 hz. A subwoofer crossed over at 80 is still helping things up to 160 hz (the filter is a slope not a brick wall), so good subs placed well and adjusted well can tame room modes way better than full range speakers, and the can fill in the lower third of the audible spectrum (including the bottom couple of octaves of most instruments) more efficiently and effectively than most speakers.

Now, you don't need great output below 30 hz for most music, though a lot of music recordings benefit from having accurate reproduction down there since the sound of the room helps with realism and that sound is bolstered by a full range system with subs even if the notes don't go that low.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm curious why people are recommending a subwoofer upgrade when the poster is looking to improve music listening? How much content is there below 80Hz in your average song? I'm talking rock'n'roll, not pipe organ. I know Audioholics recommends 2 subs for a good size home theatre, so a second Paradigm sub might end up being better than replacing the existing one for home theatre use, or replace the Paradigm with a couple others?

For music listening though, I would side with Pogre in that a speaker upgrade would have the biggest impact. I auditioned the Paradigms when I bought my home theatre setup and personally I would have to spend a lot more money to get to the next level. I brought a wide variety of music to the shop and I really like their sound. My personal recommendation is take your time. Think about what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a wider or deeper sound stage? More life-like vocals? Something lacking in the bottom end or is it the mids or highs that need refining? With that goal in mind, visit some hi-fi shops and try listening to a good variety of speakers. If your room allows for it, check out electrostatics or reflecting speakers like Ohm Walsh (if in your area) as they offer a very different experience. If you find that nothing significantly improves over the Paradigms, then you can look at tweaking what you have, whether it be amplification, extra subs, or room treatments. And if you're streaming music from a computer, maybe look into Roon and Roon enabled devices. I know, for me, half the fun is in the research.

Totally agree with the others about reasons for upgrading subs. Just to add, his speakers are definitely very very good.
Paradigm rates them to 45hz(25hz in room but I’m sure that’s at least f10, so not much use there) and they carry good sensitivity. His subwoofer is a 10” with two passive radiators. In a bedroom or den, it would likely be very nice, but since his speakers have such a good dynamic range, I have a hard time believing that little thing can add very much to them. There’s just too much airspace to excite. ESPECIALLY in a good sized room such as that. And even more so when you consider this is also for his HT. For that purpose, the little sub is useless imo, and a nice pair of fv15hp from Rythmik or VTF’s from HSU should bolster those paradigms very nicely for both purposes. So, all that plus the Rotel he has is no slouch, I think the best return is gonna be subwoofage. NOT electronics. If he had interest in Atmos(which I recommend) then I’d look at it differently.
Also, while there may or may not be much bass content below 80hz as you said can think of this. The old bass knobs on a lot of gear were centered at 50hz. Want more bass? Turn that up. Obviously that raises bass on both sides of 50, but Ime that makes extension into the 30’s very relevant. Ymmv of course.

 

[Pogre]

I saw Bill reply so I checked it out and as I scanned through the thread I realized I accidentally disliked @Eppie's last post. I meant to click like and fat fingered it. Sorry Eppie!

 

[Garplo]

Thanks all of you for the advice and suggestions. Definitely giving me plenty to think about and reconsider.
I failed to mention with my original post that this all started from a TV upgrade from 1080 to 4k.... My old TV was getting dark spots on white back ground and 4k has started leveling out as far as working out bugs in new tech.
So my Rotel won't pass through 4k video on HDMI..... That kinda started this whole bug of 'lets look at a total upgrade".... I kinda thought to refine my two channel and HT by more power and mono component electronics.
But I'm seeing that my line of thought may have just been spending money needlessly.
I'm sure I can resolve the Rotel 4k passthrough by purchasing an AVR. Might start there and keep the Rotel working the speakers as normal.... If I buy the Anthem AVM 70, I think that will work for the processing and should be able to keep using the Rotel.... I think......

 

[Garplo]

Will look into a second sub.....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Will look into a second sub.....

FWIW if you go this route, I would NOT add a second one. I would totally replace the paradigm with at least one now and another in the near future. Anything you buy today will be held back by it, and worse than that you’ll have phase issues that can destroy god FR. So imo, maybe a new AVR, and a sub, with a second sub later.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks all of you for the advice and suggestions. Definitely giving me plenty to think about and reconsider.
I failed to mention with my original post that this all started from a TV upgrade from 1080 to 4k.... My old TV was getting dark spots on white back ground and 4k has started leveling out as far as working out bugs in new tech.
So my Rotel won't pass through 4k video on HDMI..... That kinda started this whole bug of 'lets look at a total upgrade".... I kinda thought to refine my two channel and HT by more power and mono component electronics.
But I'm seeing that my line of thought may have just been spending money needlessly.
I'm sure I can resolve the Rotel 4k passthrough by purchasing an AVR. Might start there and keep the Rotel working the speakers as normal.... If I buy the Anthem AVM 70, I think that will work for the processing and should be able to keep using the Rotel.... I think......

What's the source of your 4k stuff? Some bluray playerss have dual outputs to help out with older gear.....