Using external amp with nice receiver...worth it?

  • Thread starter Oliver Capogrossi
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Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
I am considering buying a nice Rotel or PS Audio power amp (~$1500-$2000) to provide some extra power for my floor standing speakers. I have a full Atmos setup for movies but am considering doing this so I have a better 2 channel music experience and I would plan to use the preouts on my Yamaha RX-A3060 to whichever amp I decide on. I would also use the pure direct mode to bypass most processing. My question is... would this be worth it? Or would getting a preamp be worth it as well as a power amp? I am not inclined to get a preamp as I don’t want to lose my Atmos and HDMI capability completely. I’ve been in many setups that are designed for music only, with preamps and separate power amps per speaker, but that is just not something I want as I also love to watch movies. So would the 3060 be a good preamp to use with a nice power amp, and would it make a noticeable difference on the sound?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Your 3060 has a good amp section already. Can't imagine BS Audio helping one way or the other, would never consider buying anything from them myself....way too much BS in that company. What are your speakers? Hard to consider amp needs without basics like the speakers, your listening levels and your distance from the speakers....most are just fine with the avr alone, particularly a fairly powerful one like you have.
 
Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
BS Audio seems like a bit of a stretch... I have some Energy RC-70 towers that I love. The 3060 does great but was wondering if an external amp would help offload some of the load as I have 7 other speakers plugged into the amp.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
BS Audio seems like a bit of a stretch... I have some Energy RC-70 towers that I love. The 3060 does great but was wondering if an external amp would help offload some of the load as I have 7 other speakers plugged into the amp.
Watch some of grandpa Paul's videos, plenty of BS is spouted. He's a good poster boy for Audio Bullshit. They sell some very questionable products. YMMV.

Your RC-70s are reasonably sensitive speakers so amp needs should be very reasonable, would think your 3060 does just fine with them. What distance are you from the speakers? What levels are you listening at? Have you tried using an spl calculator to estimate your particular needs? http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
 
Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
The PS Audio stuff is besides the point. I will look elsewhere if that's the case but I'm more curious about an external amp offering better soundstage, more dynamic range, and offloading the amp to provide better sound overall. It's not just about getting louder sound. I can get it plenty loud. I'm about 14 feet from the speakers. If a receiver is just as good, then is using a preamp and external amp just a load of BS as well?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Yamaha RX-A3000 series can output almost 300 Watts x 2Ch into 4 ohms continuous.

Should be plenty of power.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Amps don't do soundstage, that's your recording and speakers (and room). Dynamic range your Yamaha is likely the equal of the amps. Offloading the amp section could have benefits if you're pushing it to the max a lot I suppose....I have both avrs and separates (but old 2ch separates) and I use the avrs still.....

ps Yes there's tons of bullshit in audio, particularly when they're trying to sell ya stuff :). While having more than enough amp isn't an issue, it isn't necessary either. Unused power is just unused power.
 
Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
I know that running a Yamaha amp will degrade the signal because of the internal digital conversions and processing it goes through. I just wonder if an external amp would make it any better if using Pure Direct mode. I can tell a big difference between running "straight 2 channel stereo" and "pure direct" on my receiver.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you're using pure direct you're bypassing that processing, aren't you? Why would just a different amp section be very different? You can use an external using the avr processing or not as you see fit I'd think. The Yamaha may not audibly degrade the signal in any case, altho some dsp applied you may not like....
 
Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
yes I think pure direct will bypass most of the processing, but not all of it. I don't know about how much processing goes on in the amp section itself or if that's a thing. I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the use cases for power amps and preamps from a traditional AVR.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
yes I think pure direct will bypass most of the processing, but not all of it. I don't know about how much processing goes on in the amp section itself or if that's a thing. I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the use cases for power amps and preamps from a traditional AVR.
A pre-pro (a pre-amp/processor) would do the same things as an avr, it just has a separate box for the amps. Maybe a bit less noisy environment, at least measurably, than being in a single box, unlikely an audible issue. Most of your recordings have gone thru much more processing and most processing is sufficiently transparent so I simply wouldn't worry about it. You can demonstrate something similar by using a program like Audacity and run loops of ADC/DAC and see if you can tell any difference. Power amps you can keep for a long time but the cost of a good pre-pro is usually significantly more than an avr than can do as well (or better, check out measurements at ASR so far).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The PS Audio stuff is besides the point. I will look elsewhere if that's the case but I'm more curious about an external amp offering better soundstage, more dynamic range, and offloading the amp to provide better sound overall. It's not just about getting louder sound. I can get it plenty loud. I'm about 14 feet from the speakers. If a receiver is just as good, then is using a preamp and external amp just a load of BS as well?
Yes, it is all BS. If you want to improve your sound then buy better speakers. That is all there is to be said.
 
Oliver Capogrossi

Oliver Capogrossi

Enthusiast
Yes, it is all BS. If you want to improve your sound then buy better speakers. That is all there is to be said.
so basically, I can use a cheap AVR and it wouldn't be different from an expensive amp? That seems to be what everyone is arguing. I just don't believe that with the logic presented..
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
so basically, I can use a cheap AVR and it wouldn't be different from an expensive amp? That seems to be what everyone is arguing. I just don't believe that with the logic presented..
Why does it always go from comparing some stupid expensive amp to some stupid cheap avr? Of course there are things in between. I do have an old basic Sony avr that does just fine compared to a variety of gear, tho. Just depends what capabilities each piece has. Amp sections in cheap avrs tend to be fairly lightweight compared to those in flagship units. Separate amps can definitely be more powerful, so always nice to have a full set of pre-outs for flexibility.....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Your avr is closer to flagship class in any case. There are a wide variety of amp brands out there but for me BS Audio wouldn't ever make the list. Some cool new Hypex and Purifi based amps out there if you want some of the best available, or maybe just the Benchmark AHB2 which sits pretty much at the top of the heap. Or even a good pro amp with more useful features than many consumer amps....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
yes I think pure direct will bypass most of the processing, but not all of it. I don't know about how much processing goes on in the amp section itself or if that's a thing. I'm just trying to get a better grasp on the use cases for power amps and preamps from a traditional AVR.
Usually direct and pure direct both bypass processing completely. Pure direct just shuts off the display, and any video componentry as to not “polute” any audio signals. I’ve never been able to discern any differences between the two.
The use case for external amps is usually for speakers that present difficult loads to drive. Better soundstage and imaging is not a function of the amps. It’s in the recording, and speakers and in Yamahas case, lots of dsp modes. I can’t imagine the 3080 degrading any signals. It’s a great AVR.
Didn’t notice what you’re using for subs. Depending on what you have there, it could easily be a better return on 2000 dollars.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
so basically, I can use a cheap AVR and it wouldn't be different from an expensive amp? That seems to be what everyone is arguing. I just don't believe that with the logic presented..
That is not what I said. You claim to be very happy with your speakers. So it would appear your receiver is driving them satisfactorily. Some speakers present troublesome loads, and do require better more powerful amps. Usually it comes down to not just better sound as the receiver amps become overloaded, but an issue of reliability, as speakers vary in their ability to blow up receivers.

I personally do not use receivers, for lost of reasons. I use pre pros, and I have good test gear. They measure as good as most preamps, I have tested, except in one important aspect and that is head room. So that means you have to be very careful about gain structure, in the system design. There is no deleterious processing going on unless you engage those equalization programs like Audyssey or YPAO. So leave them off. I would suspect the preamps of the higher end receivers have comparable performance.

A properly set up AV system running in two channel should be every bit the equal of a stand alone two channel system. So you do not need to have separate systems for AV and music. That is utter nonsense.

The fact is, the sound of your system is dominated by your speakers and their interaction with the room. However speakers are the most dominant, but careful placement decor and furnishings usually suffice to optimize the room. I have never had to resort to special acoustic treatments,.

It is easy to show that speakers are dominant. If you go to a good dealer who can switch from speaker set to speaker set, you will find that the sound changes significantly. That is not just confined, to speakers between brands, but between speakers in the same brand. So I usually naughtily ask the salesman: - "which one is correct?"

Unfortunately these days it is design by committee. My point here is that it takes years of experience as a designer, to produce a very consistent sound and sound stage between designs. I design all my speakers, but the very last skill I acquired was the ability to have a consistent sonic presentation. I can honestly say that only comes with experience, as there is still a large area of judgement involved with speakers.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, it is all BS. If you want to improve your sound then buy better speakers. That is all there is to be said.
And make sure the room isn't causing problems with the sound.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Why does it always go from comparing some stupid expensive amp to some stupid cheap avr? Of course there are things in between. I do have an old basic Sony avr that does just fine compared to a variety of gear, tho. Just depends what capabilities each piece has. Amp sections in cheap avrs tend to be fairly lightweight compared to those in flagship units. Separate amps can definitely be more powerful, so always nice to have a full set of pre-outs for flexibility.....
If they use a better receiver, how could they show an improvement?
 
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