Outlaw 975 noise question

[Alex2507]

This is Irv's old 975 in case anybody recollects his issues with it. I did the usual wire and amp swap finding that RCA's made no difference and going from the Rotel 981 that I wanted to use over to Marantz 700 Monoblocks did help due to volume controls. The THX setting for volume puts the volume control around 2 o'clock. Turning it down to about 12 o'clock got the noise down. I don't understand what exactly is happening here. When I turn the volume up and down at the prepro, the noise stays the same. When I turn it up and down at the amp, the noise goes up and down. The Rotel amp doesn't have a volume control which is a shame because it's pretty compact. I'm gonna have to run some long RCAs to get the amps off the main stage on what is now officially System 3.

Initially I tested the Outlaw out on some small Infinity Primus 140 speakers with the same 86 db as the Aperion 5 DB speakers in use currently and did not hear anything objectionable. I went and swapped out the speakers just now. Same noise issue. Maybe the noise floor is lower in that room or at this time. To be clear, when the amp volume is at the THX 2 o'clock position on the Marantz Monoblocks, I think the TV fans are about as loud as the hum from the speakers. Turned down to the 12 o'clock position, I have to get within a few feet of the speaker to hear the speaker hum over the TV fans.

I feel like I have a solution to the noise but don't exactly like it ... or understand it. Walter turns his amps up to Eleven.

Oh, and there is almost zero noise with the signal cable (RCA) unplugged at the prepro.

Any insight?

 

[Alex2507]

I got insight.

The Marantz amps are big enough (200w/300w) to drive the speakers to adequate SPL even at half mast (where the noise floor of the 975 is low enough).

The noise actually appears to be louder on the Infinity Primus 140s because all of it comes out of a one tweeter one mid speaker. The Aperion Intimus 5 DB has 2 tweets and 2 mids pointed in different directions so you only ever 'hear' one face at a time. It seems half as loud up close and of course once you take a step back it's even harder to detect. From the listening position, turning the TV off is a more noticeable noise drop.

Looking around AVS I noticed lovinthehd was banned there ... ha, ha ... and that this is sort of a known issue. So far, turning the amp down seems like the only thing that works ... well, it works for me.

Bigly Amp: Final Answer

 

[Irvrobinson]

The problem is clearly in the 975, which seems to be proven by adjusting the gain control on the amps, and that being the factor that alters the noise level.

 

[Alex2507]

The problem is clearly in the 975, which seems to be proven by adjusting the gain control on the amps, and that being the factor that alters the noise level.

Your solution was to go to more efficient speakers. Mine is a big amp with the gain turned down. Those seem to be the only work arounds.

Once I added and calibrated a sub, the difference was about 7 db hotter for the speakers crossed at 120 Hz. The sub (bandpass mid bass) is under the foot of the bed pointed at the dresser that the speakers sit on. It's out of the way too. Like the whole thing 'works' just the way I need, at a price point I could meet so I'm good. For more demanding applications ... I don't know.

Like, how much does no hiss cost?
I bet it's more than a buck and a quarter plus shipping.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Your solution was to go to more efficient speakers. Mine is a big amp with the gain turned down. Those seem to be the only work arounds.

Once I added and calibrated a sub, the difference was about 7 db hotter for the speakers crossed at 120 Hz. The sub (bandpass mid bass) is under the foot of the bed pointed at the dresser that the speakers sit on. It's out of the way too. Like the whole thing 'works' just the way I need, at a price point I could meet so I'm good. For more demanding applications ... I don't know.

Like, how much does no hiss cost?
I bet it's more than a buck and a quarter plus shipping.

As I remember it, the higher sensitivity speakers mitigated the inadequate output voltage problem, but later I noticed hum coming from the speakers. I think the very low sensitivity JBLs I was using were somehow masking the hum by reducing its level. Looking through my old posts on the topic, I determined the hum was coming from the 975, and nothing I tried eliminated it. Once I noticed the hum, I was unable to ignore it. I replaced it with a Marantz NR1608 receiver I bought for $500. I run the Marantz in pre-pro mode, only because I had the ATI amp. If the ATI fails I'll use the Marantz's amp channels. The Marantz has no hiss or hum, and drives the low-gain ATI easily. Lately I've been bypassing the Marantz video switching because I find video quality is better plugging the devices directly into the Vizio TV, and then running HDMI ARC back to the Marantz for audio. Lip-synch is okay with ARC, but occasionally still seems a little off. I just live with it; no amount of fiddling improves it.

I continue to generally despise current HT audio and video processing technology in general. HDMI and the poor designs of every AVR or pre-pro I use or read about annoy me. If the Marantz ever fails I'm not sure what I'll do.

 

[Alex2507]

I determined the hum was coming from the 975, and nothing I tried eliminated it.

Your AT602 is not the amp for that prepro. If I hadn't picked up those monoblocks with gain adjustments for a couple hundred each a few years ago, I'd be screwed.

Would you have kept the 975 if it meant getting a bigger amp and running it gimped like I am? I'm watching Netflix with the main volume up to -12 and it's just at regular TV listening levels. I don't know where it maxes out at but music off a Plex server got loud enough to get me in trouble with the girl so ... all is well.

I did read some pretty colorful positive reviews about the 'sound' of the 975. I wonder if all the 975s are cut from the same cloth and I wonder about the 976. They must have fixed the issues considering the price doubled.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Your AT602 is not the amp for that prepro. If I hadn't picked up those monoblocks with gain adjustments for a couple hundred each a few years ago, I'd be screwed.

Would you have kept the 975 if it meant getting a bigger amp and running it gimped like I am? I'm watching Netflix with the main volume up to -12 and it's just at regular TV listening levels. I don't know where it maxes out at but music off a Plex server got loud enough to get me in trouble with the girl so ... all is well.

I did read some pretty colorful positive reviews about the 'sound' of the 975. I wonder if all the 975s are cut from the same cloth and I wonder about the 976. They must have fixed the issues considering the price doubled.

The 976 is rated for a "pre-out" capability of 4 volts, though I assume that's for the XLR outputs. I don't know what the single-ended outputs are capable of, which the AT602 needs.

I probably would have kept the 975 if it had sufficient output for the AT602, and I got to the bottom of the hum problem. It had exactly the price range and the form factor I was looking for. I guess we'll never know the real answer. I'm glad the 975 is currently working out for you.

 

[Alex2507]

I'm glad the 975 is currently working out for you.

Thanks for helping me understand the goings on of this unit. I just ran the Spears and Munsil calibration disc. The difference between sub and speaker trim grew. Still plenty loud. I noticed Outlaw has a software update. They're supplying cables to "owners of record". I confirmed my version is 3.0 and needs updating to 5.3.

Man, I thought I was all done. I emailed them and gave 'em your name in case that scores me some points. I almost told them you were a big deal on an audio forum.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thanks for helping me understand the goings on of this unit. I just ran the Spears and Munsil calibration disc. The difference between sub and speaker trim grew. Still plenty loud. I noticed Outlaw has a software update. They're supplying cables to "owners of record". I confirmed my version is 3.0 and needs updating to 5.3.

Man, I thought I was all done. I emailed them and gave 'em your name in case that scores me some points. I almost told them you were a big deal on an audio forum.

Outlaw may have put my initial less than flattering posts about the 975 in my "permanent record", so I'm not sure mentioning my name was a positive thing. If there's anything I can do to assist in getting you the update, let me know.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm impressed its still in use....glad the amp/volume thing works out for you, Alex

 

[Alex2507]

Outlaw may have put my initial less than flattering posts about the 975 in my "permanent record", so I'm sure mentioning my name was a positive thing. If there's anything I can do to assist in getting you the update, let me know.

Cool. I told 'em I'd send 'em some money if need be. Their "owner of record" thing for the freebee cable wanted an address and phone number. We'll see if it comes to all that. It would be wild if the update somehow fixed the issue/s.

I'm impressed its still in use....glad the amp/volume thing works out for you, Alex

Like the only advantage to living in a condo is that I haven't gone deaf listening at high levels. I got to playing some music upwards of 80 db and it seemed ridiculously loud. (C weighted on one of the old analog Radio Shack meters.) Maybe some distortion in there setting off ques for high SPL. Lousy square room too.

You know what would work perfect in this application? Irv's AT602. My speakers are only marginally more efficient than what he deemed quiet enough but not loud enough. Maybe not so much more efficient as to introduce the hum and almost certainly loud enough for a bedroom system in a condo. Local stuff on Audiogon turns up pretty regular around here. At least now I know what too look for: a nice 60 watt amp for under $5,000.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Like the only advantage to living in a condo is that I haven't gone deaf listening at high levels. I got to playing some music upwards of 80 db and it seemed ridiculously loud. (C weighted on one of the old analog Radio Shack meters.) Maybe some distortion in there setting off ques for high SPL. Lousy square room too.

We typically listen to the HT system at an average level of 70db at the listening seat. My wife is a Bosch fan (the TV series), and she likes that show louder, closer to 75db, and because it's an action series it even exercises the woofers a bit. (No sub in the HT system.) But I agree that an 80db average for us only happens on the music system, and even then only on well-recorded acoustic jazz and some classic rock. Some of my friends who are fans of action movies listen a lot louder, but I can't stand it for more than a few minutes. And usually the subs are running so hot it sounds silly.

You know what would work perfect in this application? Irv's AT602. My speakers are only marginally more efficient than what he deemed quiet enough but not loud enough. Maybe not so much more efficient as to introduce the hum and almost certainly loud enough for a bedroom system in a condo. Local stuff on Audiogon turns up pretty regular around here. At least now I know what too look for: a nice 60 watt amp for under $5,000.

There's only one AT602 on eBay, and even with a ding in it they want more than I paid for mine new:

ATI AT602 2 Channel Amplifier for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ATI AT602 2 Channel Amplifier at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

I'd pass.

 

[highfigh]

If you need to raise the volume control to 2:00, there's a mismatch happening or the level controls in some area may be set too high and something is causing the output through the volume control section to decrease, IMO. If the controls for the inputs you have used are set for unity gain (0dB gain- the input level is equal to the output level), you should hear no noise. Unfortunately, the specs in the manual are far from complete. I looked at the specs for an integrated amp that I owned and it shows the input sensitivity, which is something that, if your specs showed it, would be helpful. The piece I owned had 150mV input sensitivity for the line inputs.

 

[Alex2507]

We typically listen to the HT system at an average level of 70db at the listening seat. My wife is a Bosch fan (the TV series), and she likes that show louder, closer to 75db, and because it's an action series it even exercises the woofers a bit. (No sub in the HT system.) But I agree that an 80db average for us only happens on the music system, and even then only on well-recorded acoustic jazz and some classic rock. Some of my friends who are fans of action movies listen a lot louder, but I can't stand it for more than a few minutes. And usually the subs are running so hot it sounds silly.



There's only one AT602 on eBay, and even with a ding in it they want more than I paid for mine new:

ATI AT602 2 Channel Amplifier for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ATI AT602 2 Channel Amplifier at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

I'd pass.

I checked the SPL in Mantown and 80 db was loud but pleasant. It’s geared for it but dipoles about 4” off the wall on a dresser for the 975 set up wasn’t as nice a time.

I was looking at an ATI amp with a ding in it until Craig pointed out the height it must have been dropped from.

My power went out. Can’t browse Audiogon. I thought ATI amps cost a lot more. I felt like window shopping. And the phone battery is at 20 %. I might need rescue!

 

[Alex2507]

If there's anything I can do to assist in getting you the update, let me know.

Well ... I think it's time. 3 days, bidness days mind you, and no response. They might respond to you as a real customer or maybe they're just jammed up.

If you can reach out to them as the customer to get me the cable and driver software, I would appreciate it ... there's no way Outlaw shipped it off to me but failed to notify me. And they're sort of specific about what they want to verify the 'owner of record' language.

From the update link above:


Send an email (please no calls) to us at:

975softwareupdate@outlawaudio.com

Include your name, address, phone number, and the Serial Number of your Model 975.

Once we have your information and verify it, the adapter cable will be on its way to you along with the URL needed to access the page where the software download file is located. This update is available to all Model 975 owners of record, whether you purchased your unit as an A Stock, B stock, or on the secondary market.

EDIT: Ser. # EY-1210-1667

 

[Irvrobinson]

Update request sent to Outlaw.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Outlaw says they're going to send the cable directly to you.

 

[Alex2507]

Outlaw says they're going to send the cable directly to you.

See? ... That's how a forum heavy weight hits.

 

[Alex2507]

Cable arrived and the update is complete. Unit bricked. Contacted OLA via phone # they provide "in case" something goes wrong. Phone # was a recording directing me to a web page. After being instructed to do a reset which failed I was informed that the unit would have to go in for service. I asked if I could drop it off. The cable came from Easton MA. I'm 30 minutes away. They said around $150 for service and round trip shipping would be required as they don't do drop offs and pick ups.

I declined their offer to throw good money after bad once their update had bricked my device. When I tried to sign back in to the support web page it said access denied.

I'm seriously considering embedding Dead Wally's wood handled drywall hatchet in this Outlaw Audio Model 975. So sorry to have wasted so much time trying to set a system up around this POS. So happy this lesson only cost me $165 out of pocket. F^%& them in the @ss with a cactus.

 

[Irvrobinson]

How annoying. My refund offer still stands. I won't even make you send the carcass back.