AVR cost vs. speakers

[TechToys2]

That would likely not be good....did you run a reset?

I had loaded an older configuration I saved (I had been testing a configuration I set up manually and reloaded the earlier one with Audyssey). I guess maybe something got messed up in the process. Just to be safe I think I'll rerun Audyssey when I get the chance. So actually yes, I ran a reset before I did the manual configuration, but then reloaded the Audyssey config.

 

[Pogre]

I'd say any "upgrading" from your 6014 would more relate to dsp/features desired and if the amp section is sufficient, you're done, and with a 5.1 speaker setup that's not too likely to be any advantage except in different flavors of REQ program; moving to other brands/models just seeking some vague expectation of "improvement" not so much. Basic audio quality by changing avr is not as likely as changing speakers or paying attention to the room they're in....

I agree totally. The 6014 is a very good avr (I have the 6011, still love it and still going strong). I'd only upgrade if there were some new must have features I don't currently have. In my opinion if you're looking for a bump in sound quality that's gonna be in the speakers and sub(s).

That said I skimmed a little... OP, what do you have for a sub? Speakers? Did I miss that somewhere?

 

[Pogre]

Thanks. That was my initial thought, but decided to go for the 6014 given that was the entry point for Audyssey XT32.



The amp section seems good enough. I'm still very frustrated trying to get a sound balance I am happy with on most content. I watched something last night and decided to put on Dynamic Volume Light figuring it would help compress the highs and lows so maybe I could hear better at lower volume, but instead I got blown away by background music so I had to turn down the volume too low to hear anything else. Needless to say that got turned off quickly .

Audyssey XT32 is what sold me on the 6011.

I never use dynamic volume, nor do I ever use LFC. Both of those modes muck it up for me. As far as balance goes, if you run the setup routine with the mic the more accurate your measurements the better the results. I do all 8 and follow the pattern on the screen closely. I even tighten it up a little and measure less than 2' from the first. I've done a lot of experimenting and have found more careful measurements made an audible difference for me.

Here's another thing. Sometimes movies aren't mixed very well and the sound balance can just plain be off. A good recent example of this is Chris Nolan's new movie "Tenet". The dialogue is a mess and just about unintelligible in some scenes and the background music drowns everything out. Lots of complaints about that one, but it's more common than you might think. Your source matters too. YouTube for instance can be very inconsistent. I wouldn't judge performance until you play something that you know is mixed right and balanced.

 

[TechToys2]

That said I skimmed a little... OP, what do you have for a sub? Speakers? Did I miss that somewhere?

Nope, didn't miss anything. I did talk about my speakers in other threads where I was discussing dialog issues, but this just kind of morphed into discussing that, although it was not the original intent.

My speakers are a mix of older B&Ws except the sub - all were purchased around 20 years ago. L&R are CDM 1NT bookshelfs on stands (similar to the current 700 series, I believe) , the center is a CC6 S2 (600 series - CDM center was too big so I had to settle), surrounds are wall mounted LM1s and the sub is a Rel Strata III (which I got a little grief over from some folks here who don't like Rel). The room is small but open to another room on one side and to a hallway on another wall. It's not ideal, but it's fine and I'm generally happy with the speakers, although I have never been too thrilled with the center.

 

[lovinthehd]

Nope, didn't miss anything. I did talk about my speakers in other threads where I was discussing dialog issues, but this just kind of morphed into discussing that, although it was not the original intent.

My speakers are a mix of older B&Ws except the sub - all were purchased around 20 years ago. L&R are CDM 1NT bookshelfs on stands (similar to the current 700 series, I believe) , the center is a CC6 S2 (600 series - CDM center was too big so I had to settle), surrounds are wall mounted LM1s and the sub is a Rel Strata III (which I got a little grief over from some folks here who don't like Rel). The room is small but open to another room on one side and to a hallway on another wall. It's not ideal, but it's fine and I'm generally happy with the speakers, although I have never been too thrilled with the center.

Are you in the UK?

 

[TechToys2]

Are you in the UK?

No. I'm in the U.S. Why do you ask? Because of the speakers and sub?

 

[lovinthehd]

No. I'm in the U.S. Why do you ask? Because of the speakers and sub?

Yep brit brands so was wondering....could be more reasonably priced in the uk was my line of thought.

 

[Pogre]

Nope, didn't miss anything. I did talk about my speakers in other threads where I was discussing dialog issues, but this just kind of morphed into discussing that, although it was not the original intent.

My speakers are a mix of older B&Ws except the sub - all were purchased around 20 years ago. L&R are CDM 1NT bookshelfs on stands (similar to the current 700 series, I believe) , the center is a CC6 S2 (600 series - CDM center was too big so I had to settle), surrounds are wall mounted LM1s and the sub is a Rel Strata III (which I got a little grief over from some folks here who don't like Rel). The room is small but open to another room on one side and to a hallway on another wall. It's not ideal, but it's fine and I'm generally happy with the speakers, although I have never been too thrilled with the center.

Ah. Well, depending on your goals I see a very strong argument for upgrading all your speakers and sub(s). Maybe starting with the subs. I'm not familiar with your speakers but I've listened to B&W from their entry level to top of the line. Their top of the line are some of the best speakers I've heard, but you need and 2nd mortgage to buy them. Their entry and mid level stuff I'm not that impressed with but B&W are known for a particular sound. Some folks prefer it, some don't. I'm in the don't camp, but that subjective.

A good clean sub tho, that will make a bigger difference than most realize. You probably caught some flak over REL because in general they're pretty overpriced for what you get in performance. REL tends a lot more toward small size and aesthetics over performance. Plus the one you have is woefully underpowered and I see big opportunity there. Good bass isn't just more boom. Clean bass has a way of even elevating your main speakers. I was shocked at how much better my entire system sounded by just adding the appropriate subwoofage. The whole range of music sounded cleaner and my bass has texture and nuance like I'd never heard before.

 

[TechToys2]

Ah. Well, depending on your goals I see a very strong argument for upgrading all your speakers and sub(s). Maybe starting with the subs. I'm not familiar with your speakers but I've listened to B&W from their entry level to top of the line. Their top of the line are some of the best speakers I've heard, but you need and 2nd mortgage to buy them. Their entry and mid level stuff I'm not that impressed with but B&W are known for a particular sound. Some folks prefer it, some don't. I'm in the don't camp, but that subjective.

A good clean sub tho, that will make a bigger difference than most realize. You probably caught some flak over REL because in general they're pretty overpriced for what you get in performance. REL tends a lot more toward small size and aesthetics over performance. Plus the one you have is woefully underpowered and I see big opportunity there. Good bass isn't just more boom. Clean bass has a way of even elevating your main speakers. I was shocked at how much better my entire system sounded by just adding the appropriate subwoofage. The whole range of music sounded cleaner and my bass has texture and nuance like I'd never heard before.

This is something I would like to do eventually, but my room is rather limiting and it may have to wait for the next house. As I mentioned, the speakers are 2 decades old. Who knows/remembers what other subwoofer options there were at the time. I went to a local store (now long out of business) and my recollection is that I was either going to get a B&W sub or the Rel. The Rel was the better of the two options. Also, it had an added benefit of being down firing - given the short wall the system is on, the sub is behind one of the speakers (although the speaker is a bookshelf on a stand).

What makes you say that Rel is woefully underpowered? How much "subwoofage" is recommended - is there a calculator? And how do I account for the open space?

 

[Pogre]

What makes you say that Rel is woefully underpowered? How much "subwoofage" is recommended - is there a calculator? And how do I account for the open space?

Not sure exactly how to answer your first question other than to say it's very small and 60 watts is very underpowered, especially for large rooms!

There is a sort of formula here at audioholics.

I don't think that little sub you have now would properly fill even a small room. If you roughly know your room dimensions and ceiling height, including any rooms open to it we can rough up your total volume and go from there.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not sure exactly how to answer your first question other than to say it's very small and 60 watts is very underpowered, especially for large rooms!

There is a sort of formula here at audioholics.
View attachment 44003

I don't think that little sub you have now would properly fill even a small room. If you roughly know your room dimensions and ceiling height, including any rooms open to it we can rough up your total volume and go from there.

What if it uses a much more sensitive driver than another sub/amp with more power? You really can't tell much just from a sub's amp used alone....

 

[Pogre]

What if it uses a much more sensitive driver than another sub/amp with more power? You really can't tell much just from a sub's amp used alone....

I know driver sensitivity is a factor, however I have a really hard time believing that 10'' driver (tho I have to admit, I thought it was a 6" driver when I looked yesterday) is doing the job in a sealed cab with 60 watts of power, regardless of sensitivity, unless he's in a very small room.

That's the spec sheet and I don't see a sensitivity rating. Could it be because it also recommends in that manual to "run it in" for a month before passing judgement? It might gain 3 or 6 dB sensitivity after the run in period!

 

[TechToys2]

I know driver sensitivity is a factor, however I have a really hard time believing that 10'' driver (tho I have to admit, I thought it was a 6" driver when I looked yesterday) is doing the job in a sealed cab with 60 watts of power, regardless of sensitivity, unless he's in a very small room.

View attachment 44004

That's the spec sheet and I don't see a sensitivity rating. Could it be because it also recommends in that manual to "run it in" for a month before passing judgement? It might gain 3 or 6 dB sensitivity after the run in period!

I AM in a very small room (probably around 10 X11) , but I it is fairly open -- on one side to a living room and on the wall where the speakers are located to a hallway. I have no doubt that the sub is not nearly as powerful as more recent models. It was also purchased (at the time) due to its ability to integrate smoothly with system for music - although I wound up using it more for movies/TV.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure if you are looking at the correct specs. This is from the manual.

 

[Pogre]

I AM in a very small room (probably around 10 X11) , but I it is fairly open -- on one side to a living room and on the wall where the speakers are located to a hallway. I have no doubt that the sub is not nearly as powerful as more recent models. It was also purchased (at the time) due to its ability to integrate smoothly with system for music - although I wound up using it more for movies/TV.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure if you are looking at the correct specs. This is from the manual.
View attachment 44007

Open to other spaces counts toward your total volume. A sub "sees" all of that area. I may have looked at the wrong spec sheet, tho the one you just posted has half the page cut off! lol.

Hey, I don't know what anyone else said to you about that sub, and I don't mean to sound like I'm just beating you up. It took a lot of cajoling and nudging to get me to give in and I was truly floored when I finally did. I wish I had done it much sooner, and before I dumped money into other things that weren't as impactful as I thought they'd be. Since then I've gotten a lot more experience and have learned to dial everything in. I really love good sound and am very pleased with my results. I'm just sharing my honest opinion and experience. I love this hobby and helping others realize great results gives me the warm fuzzies. I really believe you'd be just as surprised as I was.

 

[TechToys2]

Open to other spaces counts toward your total volume. A sub "sees" all of that area. I may have looked at the wrong spec sheet, tho the one you just posted has half the page cut off! lol.

Hey, I don't know what anyone else said to you about that sub, and I don't mean to sound like I'm just beating you up. It took a lot of cajoling and nudging to get me to give in and I was truly floored when I finally did. I wish I had done it much sooner, and before I dumped money into other things that weren't as impactful as I thought they'd be. Since then I've gotten a lot more experience and have learned to dial everything in. I really love good sound and am very pleased with my results. I'm just sharing my honest opinion and experience. I love this hobby and helping others realize great results gives me the warm fuzzies. I really believe you'd be just as surprised as I was.

Haha. It was cut off intentionally. The other part of the page gave specs for other subs in the same line.

And no worries. I'm not insulted in the least. I appreciate any and all opinions and help. I just want to make sure we are all working with the same facts.

Things have changed dramatically in the last 20 years, both in terms of the technology as well as the options available and the distribution of them. Nobody was buying a sub online back then, that's for sure. In fact I was probably still on a dial up modem! I could get a much better sub today for probably less money than I paid back then.

It wouldn't take much to convince me to replace the sub, although I do seem to have an unnatural attachment to my old audio equipment. Lol. It's not that I can't let it go, but selling large and heavy stuff presents challenges, and the thought of just giving it away to someone who might not appreciate or care for it pains me. I have family members I have tried to give great sounding older speakers and other components to, but everyone wants to play music on their iPhones and listen on tiny bluetooth speakers these days. Go figure.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well the Rel isn't horrible but it doesn't dig particularly deep (and probably not at very high spl levels either). You can do a lot better these days, tho. If it works, tho....