Ascend acoustics off axis response

[matt houser]

To be sure, I don't think the CMT340s are terrible speakers. As bookshelf speakers go, they offer a lot for the money. However, they could use some assistance with equalization. The main problem looks to be the rise centered at 1kHz. I would apply parametric equalization taking a wide band around 1kHz down by about 4dB. After that, maybe fool around with tone controls taking the entire treble range down about 2dB to see what that does.

What kind of AVR do you have? Do you know its equalization abilities?

I have the Marantz SR6013, it does have the nine band graphic equalizer

 

[shadyJ]

I have the Marantz SR6013, it does have the nine band graphic equalizer

You should be able to EQ the response and take down the harshness. What are the EQ band frequencies on your equalizer?

 

[matt houser]

You should be able to EQ the response and take down the harshness. What are the EQ band frequencies on your equalizer?

63 Hz / 125 Hz / 250 Hz / 500 Hz / 1 kHz /
2 kHz / 4 kHz / 8 kHz / 16 kHz

 

[shadyJ]

63 Hz / 125 Hz / 250 Hz / 500 Hz / 1 kHz /
2 kHz / 4 kHz / 8 kHz / 16 kHz

OK, here is what I would try to make the sound less harsh. Take the 1 kHz band down by about 3 to 4 dB. Then take the 4, 8, and 16 kHz bands down by about 2 dB. Altogether, that should take the edge off this speaker and make it sound more neutral. You can experiment from there to get a tonality that you prefer.

 

[matt houser]

OK, here is what I would try to make the sound less harsh. Take the 1 kHz band down by about 3 to 4 dB. Then take the 4, 8, and 16 kHz bands down by about 2 dB. Altogether, that should take the edge off this speaker and make it sound more neutral. You can experiment from there to get a tonality that you prefer.

Couple more questions for you shady, is there a way to spot these issues in REW, would they just show up as peaks in the full range response, I have gone as far as even trying full range correction with Audyssey and tried both of their reference curves and even that doesn’t tame the issues, certain material is worse than others but at its worst it’s crazy The amount of ringing that I hear sometimes, I experimented at a decent volume and applied eq to tame the high end until it sounded better to my ears and the total amount of eq that it took was extreme, so much to the extent that it changed the overall SPL output on my mains by quite a bit, which leads me to my second question, my entire process included using minidsp to get the subs right and then applying audyssey on the mains to eq there lower bass region to help with integration, basically I eq the lower end of the speaker or the upper end but I don’t have the ability to do both, what are your thoughts on this situation

 

[ryanosaur]

@matt houser
What is your room like?
I’m not one to look at acoustic treatments until absolutely everything else has been done; from getting a good grip on room correction, to mastering Speaker placement and room layout...
It seems you are either very sensitive to those mids and highs, or have a significant amount of reflected energy perhaps which is making that range stand out.
Either way, before EQing your rig to death, which your last post hints at, it may be wise to step back and look at your room as a key part to the whole system.
Photos are always helpful. But at least please describe in detail what you can about your speaker placement in room, your LP, the relation of each to walls/boundaries, whether the room is carpeted, heavily decorated, etc.
Also, if you have XT32 and the App, you can post your Audyssey ‘before’ measurement as well as REW measurements so we can see what you are looking at.

 

[shadyJ]

Couple more questions for you shady, is there a way to spot these issues in REW, would they just show up as peaks in the full range response, I have gone as far as even trying full range correction with Audyssey and tried both of their reference curves and even that doesn’t tame the issues, certain material is worse than others but at its worst it’s crazy The amount of ringing that I hear sometimes, I experimented at a decent volume and applied eq to tame the high end until it sounded better to my ears and the total amount of eq that it took was extreme, so much to the extent that it changed the overall SPL output on my mains by quite a bit, which leads me to my second question, my entire process included using minidsp to get the subs right and then applying audyssey on the mains to eq there lower bass region to help with integration, basically I eq the lower end of the speaker or the upper end but I don’t have the ability to do both, what are your thoughts on this situation

These peaks might be visible in a room response curve, but it's hard to say. Every room is different, and so a neutral speaker will show up with a different response for each room, and with a speaker like yours, it's even more unpredictable. I wouldn't have expected Audyssey to help you out here. One of the problems is that speaker doesn't have the most even directivity, and it's hard for a program like Audyssey to make sense of a speaker like that. It can't really EQ a speaker like that very well.

Given the effort that you have dumped into this process, I would give Dirac Live a try. You might also just start with some neutral speakers. I think it's time for some new speakers. Look for some speakers with a flat response and smooth off-axis response. Your AVR has pre-outs, so maybe think about getting some studio monitors instead of passive speakers. It's a lot easier to get powered monitors with a wide dynamic range and good on and off axis response than it is passive speakers if you don't want to spend a lot of money.

 

[shadyJ]

One other thought: how many recordings did your set up seem harsh with? Were the recordings mainly coming from a certain era, like the 80's? Because there are a lot of older recordings that are harsh, so they would sound bad with a neutrally toned system. If that is the case, you shouldn't EQ the system just to make a few bad recordings sound tolerable. Give me an example of a passage of a recording that seems particularly bad to you, and I will check it out.

 

[matt houser]

@matt houser
What is your room like?
I’m not one to look at acoustic treatments until absolutely everything else has been done; from getting a good grip on room correction, to mastering Speaker placement and room layout...
It seems you are either very sensitive to those mids and highs, or have a significant amount of reflected energy perhaps which is making that range stand out.
Either way, before EQing your rig to death, which your last post hints at, it may be wise to step back and look at your room as a key part to the whole system.
Photos are always helpful. But at least please describe in detail what you can about your speaker placement in room, your LP, the relation of each to walls/boundaries, whether the room is carpeted, heavily decorated, etc.
Also, if you have XT32 and the App, you can post your Audyssey ‘before’ measurement as well as REW measurements so we can see what you are looking at.

probably won’t be able to set up my calibration mic until tomorrow, The one step I haven’t taken yet is any type of full range measurements on the fronts, to this point I have focused on getting the subs dialed in with the mini DSP that I got for Christmas, as far as the main‘s go, I have them placed along the width of the room which is 12 feet wide, I got very technical in their placement because I was getting massive cancellations in the lower base region, I staggered the distance of the mains from the side and back walls By a third because I read that if you place them perfectly symmetrical from the side & rear walls(which I did) that it can cause major problems with cancellations, sure enough when I staggered the distance that problem went away, these cancellations were so severe that when I combined the mains with the sub it was dragging the sub response down ruining my minidsp curve, that is my reasoning for where I have the mains placed currently, they are placed precisely the same distance from each side wall, 11 feet away from my head, my floor is heavily carpeted along with additional throw rugs but the walls are definitely bare, I have quite a few pictures on the walls also that are highly reflective, so there is no doubt in my mind that these walls are less than ideal and are probably bouncing around high frequencies all over the place, i’m sure being in such a small room isn’t helping, 12 x 18x 8, I could only get the couch as far back as about 5/8 the way back in the room, I am roughly 4 to 5 feet away from the back wall and Dead center of the width, I have some pre-and post measurements with XT 32 of the mains, I will work on getting some responses tomorrow

 

[ryanosaur]

Kudos on fighting the urge to keep things symmetrical.

My Mains and Subs are all set up asymmetrically. I'm in an 11x15' room with a high, sloping Clerestory ceiling which yields me roughly 2000cu.ft room volume. Really wish I had a few more feet to play with in width and depth!

Regardless, there is nothing drastic about those "Before" graphs that set me to itching. You can see a slight dipping trend ~2K followed by some slight rising trend just above that. But nothing there is overly pronounced. REW charts will be a little more telling than those Aud charts.

That said, much like my room, I bet if you go in there when it's relatively quiet and start clapping, you will hear the slap echo. I have wood ceilings with exposed rafters which help break up sound, but still have a good amount of Drywall surface that isn't broken up.
I got my rig to the point where I can listen at pretty high volume level to frequencies in that range you seem to be concerned with: and did so largely through placement and having speakers that allow me to damp the mids a little. I still have long term aspirations to fix the slap echo by applying some Absorption and Diffusion in my room. If you choose to look into this, I will say that a little time spent gaining a basic understanding of acoustics will be helpful. This, for example is a great book:

Master Handbook of Acoustics, Sixth Edition: Everest, F. Alton: 9780071841047: Amazon.com: Books

Master Handbook of Acoustics, Sixth Edition [Everest, F. Alton] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Master Handbook of Acoustics, Sixth Edition

www.amazon.com

A key takeaway is that in treating a room, you really don't need to treat more than 25% of the surface area, and doing so using different methods is much more effective than treating, say, one whole wall.
If you are crafty, panels can be very easy to DIY and also made to look good.
Common application points would be on the front wall behind each speaker and on the side walls at the First Reflection Point. Some diffraction on the back wall... This may well be all you need to break that up.

This in no way is counter to what Shady suggests. And mind, I don't normally recommend this as a path. However, if your goal is to solve such specific issues as you describe then perhaps....

 

[Teetertotter?]

I see some speaker mfg's having a lot of HYPE in their write ups. Believe it or not?? Or have not made changes in years in development/research, in their product lines, for example. Good or bad? There are sooo many models of speakers in their product lines, to fit your budget. What do you want from a bookshelf speaker......for example? Low budget/high budget? Some $300.00 speakers can match $1000.00 pair???

@matt houser Here is one review on the Ascend CMT 340. Believe it or not?

 

[matt houser]

One other thought: how many recordings did your set up seem harsh with? Were the recordings mainly coming from a certain era, like the 80's? Because there are a lot of older recordings that are harsh, so they would sound bad with a neutrally toned system. If that is the case, you shouldn't EQ the system just to make a few bad recordings sound tolerable. Give me an example of a passage of a recording that seems particularly bad to you, and I will check it out.

When it comes to source material, it ranges from Spotify‘s premium service up to Amazon HD when I want to stream at a little higher quality, i’m usually always streaming, never playing from a CD so it’s not always the highest quality source to begin with, I also listen to a lot of 5.1 surround, in general it seems like it’s more of a range that the system struggles with rather than a particular source, with certain songs and even some 5.1 movies though I have noticed high range ringing, particularly the higher end of rock solos and especially certain female vocals, The best example I could give you is: I was playing from XM radio and the titanic song came on from the movie titanic, now I know Celine might be a pretty extreme example but it’s a perfect reference to exactly what this system is struggling with, I prefer to listen around -10 but I remember even at -15 things start to get pretty shrill with a lot of material, again I even notice it in some 5.1 movie content, but that song specifically sounded absolutely horrific at a higher volume of around -10 and even so at -15, even some male vocals sound a bit pitchy to me at times so it’s not out of the question that I’m hearing a bit of mid range issue along with some trouble issues, that’s definitely what it seemed like when I was doing my own listening and messing with EQ

 

[shadyJ]

That harshness could be due to the rise above 1kHz that we see in that speaker's response. It may also be a product of the reflections of the treble versus the nullified midrange due to the MTM design. If you are not listening close to tweeter height, then the speaker is going to be very bright. Nearly all vertical MTMs have a very tight vertical angle where they have a full sound. Go just a bit above or below that angle, and the midrange vanishes due to a cancellation lobe. You should try some new speakers that have a flatter response and a more forgiving vertical off-axis response.