adding an external amp - worth it?

[N1ghtcrawl3r]

Hi All,

Hoping to get some answers before I head down this path. I have a Denon x3400H currently running 5.1 with Q Acoustics 3000 (towers rated 91db, 6ohm) series speakers and a SVS SB3000 sub. Since the receiver is 7.1 channel I have used the remaining 2 channels to "bi-amp" as the 3050 towers has the connectors(yes, I know this is considered a waste of speaker cable). I have no issues with the sound and loudness I'm getting, but I'm hoping to improve the sound - soundstage, dynamics etc. (for cheap). Although I use it for both movies and music, my critical listening is mostly for music performance. So here come the questions:
1. I was considering getting an Emotiva BasX A-500 or Outlaw 5000 to add to the system. Will this help?
2. The Denon has preouts for 5 channels - so would it be beneficial to connect them to the 5 amplifier inputs and then use the remaining 2 channels to bi-amp the fronts?
3. If I do #2, should the external amp be connected to the upper or lower posts? Does that make a difference.
4. If I do the above, would adding a mini-dsp between the preouts and the amp help me apply some dsp? Or will running the receiver with Audyssey ON apply the curve even to the pre-outs?
5. I have a null at 110Hz (not sure if its a room issue or just at MLP) - would I be able to eliminate it using a mini-dsp?
6. Even if I don't insert the mini-dsp, and just connect the amp, should I run Audyssey again?

Thanks for your input!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you want better soundstage and imaging etc, the way to do that is speakers.(yeah I know)
Electronics won’t be able to help with that. So, what you can do for free, is experiment with speaker placement. Try different toe in, and moving away from the front wall etc. Try some diffusion/absorption on the side walls like a blanket. Then you’ll have an idea of spending money on acoustic material, or diy will be worth it. All those things are free to try, and will be better for what you want then the proposed electronics. Also. If you’re on a leather couch with a reflective surface, try a blanket on the back. This can help with smeared imaging. Especially if you sit deep in the cushions. If the AVR is capable, I’d consider undoing the buywire and install a pair of height speakers. Jus sayin...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also for 5). It depends. Add 3-6db at 110 and see if it helps. If not, then you have to move something. Or add a couple feet to the sub distance in the AVR and see if it goes away.
Assuming the xo is set to 110...

 

[mazersteven]

If you’re on a leather couch with a reflective surface, try a blanket on the back. This can help with smeared imaging. Especially if you sit deep in the cushions.

Are you saying that all the blankets my wife keeps putting on the couches (for guests because we keep the house on the cool side) that I keep removing. That I've been messing things up acoustically in my house

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Are you saying that all the blankets my wife keeps putting on the couches (for guests because we keep the house on the cool side) that I keep removing. That I've been messing things up acoustically in my house

Lol. No, just the opposite actually. She was treating your house acoustically and she didn’t even know it. Guess you trained her well!!!

 

[N1ghtcrawl3r]

If you want better soundstage and imaging etc, the way to do that is speakers.(yeah I know)
Electronics won’t be able to help with that. So, what you can do for free, is experiment with speaker placement. Try different toe in, and moving away from the front wall etc. Try some diffusion/absorption on the side walls like a blanket. Then you’ll have an idea of spending money on acoustic material, or diy will be worth it. All those things are free to try, and will be better for what you want then the proposed electronics. Also. If you’re on a leather couch with a reflective surface, try a blanket on the back. This can help with smeared imaging. Especially if you sit deep in the cushions. If the AVR is capable, I’d consider undoing the buywire and install a pair of height speakers. Jus sayin...

im not particular unhappy with my sound, but just looking for a way to improve it. Maybe I misused the words soundstage/imaging, but I just stated them as examples of things that could be improved outside of the ability to be louder. My placement is restricted by the room I'm in and I cant change it. Sound absorption panels may be something I could look into, but might be hard given WAF. Atmos is out of the question as I'm not looking to install speakers in the ceiling. And the popcorn ceiling wont work well for upfiring atmos speakers. IF I redo the ceiling then yes, Atmost will come into play.
Also, my crossover is at 80 and not at 110.

If it helps - my REW curve is attached.

 

[lovinthehd]

im not particular unhappy with my sound, but just looking for a way to improve it. Maybe I misused the words soundstage/imaging, but I just stated them as examples of things that could be improved outside of the ability to be louder. My placement is restricted by the room I'm in and I cant change it. Sound absorption panels may be something I could look into, but might be hard given WAF. Atmos is out of the question as I'm not looking to install speakers in the ceiling. And the popcorn ceiling wont work well for upfiring atmos speakers. IF I redo the ceiling then yes, Atmost will come into play.
Also, my crossover is at 80 and not at 110.

If it helps - my REW curve is attached.

You might work on flattening the response some. You'll often read people claiming improvements in soundstage/imaging with different electronics, but that's not how it works. Better speakers and/or room placement/treatment will be the way to go for better sound.

 

[mazersteven]

Yeah sometimes you don't have to move the speakers drastically sometimes just a couple inches here and there makes a world of difference especially subwoofer placement is critical there

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

im not particular unhappy with my sound, but just looking for a way to improve it. Maybe I misused the words soundstage/imaging, but I just stated them as examples of things that could be improved outside of the ability to be louder. My placement is restricted by the room I'm in and I cant change it. Sound absorption panels may be something I could look into, but might be hard given WAF. Atmos is out of the question as I'm not looking to install speakers in the ceiling. And the popcorn ceiling wont work well for upfiring atmos speakers. IF I redo the ceiling then yes, Atmost will come into play.
Also, my crossover is at 80 and not at 110.

If it helps - my REW curve is attached.

Ok. That all helps. FWIW, Atmos can be done with from heights where the ceiling meets the wall instead of IC. Not quite as good imo but can be effective.
Waf...well we do what we can do right? There are some “art” styled panels or diy can give more options. With the ability to move speakers then that’s the next best option. At least try some different toe angles I guess. Again, try free things first just to even see if it helps. Reflections can destroy imaging so, a little help goes a long way.
For the dip, I would add a couple feet at a time to the sub channel and remeasure. Many times that will fix a dip such as that, while tightening up impulse response, and it sounds like moving the sub is out.
You can try boosting that range, but keep it small like less than 6db.
Looks like the sub channel is +5db?

 

[PENG]

Also, my crossover is at 80 and not at 110.

If it helps - my REW curve is attached.

Do you have a curve for XO 110 Hz. If that was my speaker system, I would have set XO to 110 Hz.

 

[N1ghtcrawl3r]

Yeah sometimes you don't have to move the speakers drastically sometimes just a couple inches here and there makes a world of difference especially subwoofer placement is critical there

I have already done the speaker placement adjustments and they have ended in spot as far away from the back and side walls as possible. And they have sounded much better since that too. But they are at the limit of where they can be now - so that's not a place where I can seek improvement - for now.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Do you have a curve for XO 110 Hz. If that was my speaker system, I would have set XO to 110 Hz.

I was thinking of going this direction next. Good point.

 

[N1ghtcrawl3r]

Ok. That all helps. FWIW, Atmos can be done with from heights where the ceiling meets the wall instead of IC. Not quite as good imo but can be effective.
Waf...well we do what we can do right? There are some “art” styled panels or diy can give more options. With the ability to move speakers then that’s the next best option. At least try some different toe angles I guess. Again, try free things first just to even see if it helps. Reflections can destroy imaging so, a little help goes a long way.
For the dip, I would add a couple feet at a time to the sub channel and remeasure. Many times that will fix a dip such as that, while tightening up impulse response, and it sounds like moving the sub is out.
You can try boosting that range, but keep it small like less than 6db.
Looks like the sub channel is +5db?

I have done multiple toe-ins and actually have an unusual toe-in because i have one speaker close to a side wall and the other not. the toe in i have works quite well to center the image.
Also - I am looking into the art styled panels.
I think I had tried a 110 db XO, and it didnt make much of a difference. Maybe i'll try again and remeasure when i get a chance. Also will try the sub distance and see if that helps. But If I measure each individual speaker, they all have some kind of dip at 110, so its probably not the interference between the sub and speakers.

 

[mazersteven]

Also - I am looking into the art styled panels.

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[N1ghtcrawl3r]

Shouldn't I place them behind the ports of the speaker? And along the side of the baffle thats close to the side wall?