My time to upgrade

[stalag2005]

I mentioned this in the Anthem/Marantz/Denon thread earlier. The solution MUST be able to support a 7.1 surround sound setup! I have a budget of $3K for this. Doing research I am tending to settle on the MRX-740 (due Jan 2021) from Anthem. My current AVR, the Yamaha RX-V663 has gotten to the point where trying to administer the beast is too difficult much less than the YPAO correction in it that honestly turned off my woofer when I ran it. I had to log on to the woofer to change the settings as well as change settings on my current AVR to fix that! I do like the ARCAM stuff but it is very expensive and the one unit in the $3K price range is underpowered at 80W per channel (the ARCAM 10). What I would love to get but would be a order of magnitude expensive and that is a solution from Bryston. I am not prepared to spend $30K on that solution! I have considered a new Yamaha (YPAO) is a no go, Marantz/Denon (horrible customer service from the company owning the brands) making this iffy, and NAD of which I know next to nothing about. Any solution from Cambridge Audio is again too expensive for me. I have heard of moon as a source but again there equipment is massively expensive.

What concerns me is that the crop of current AVR's that use the Panasonic chipset are inherently buggy out of the gate. From what I could determine based on other threads here the Panasonic chipset is the only one capable of 8K video and it messes with 4K video. Anthem states that they refuse to ship with the current solution for 8K but instead promising a hardware upgrade at a future time. I agree with that type of engineering as that means they intend to ship a device with as few bugs as possible. Note I left off Mackintosh as a possibility and Benchmark Media is strictly a 2 channel system for the LA4/ HPA4 which I would consider upgrading to for my computer audio.

Given this, I tend to gravitate towards quality. Bells and whistles I won't use is meaningless. I want simple, easy to administer great audio. To this end, the speakers to be driven are as follows

Paradigm 800F Premier (pair)
Paradigm 45C Prestige center
Paradigm MiniMonitor V5 (pair)
Paradigm ADP-190 (pair) {considering replacement of these with Prestige 25S}
Defiance X12 subwoofer.

I am not looking for wholesale replacement of these speakers and as such sound great to me already. The only change is to balance the rear surrounds better with the major changes I made with the fronts. The MiniMonitors are my left and right surrounds and are great for my needs. Given this, what AVR would you suggest and please give me a why you choose that particular AVR.

 

[mazersteven]

JMO

Denon 3600 - Amazon $899
Outlaw Audio 2220 2-$699 (optional don't need them)

Model 2220

Mono? Mini? Micro? Magnificent? Whatever that M is, this is one UNREAL little single-channel amp. 200 Watts (conservatively!) into a 3-inch chassis with balanced input stage to offer Common Mode Rejection! MANUAL See Front Panel Huge See Rear Panel Huge

outlawaudio.com

 

[stalag2005]

JMO

Denon 3600 - Amazon $899
Outlaw Audio 2220 2-$699 (optional don't need them)

Model 2220

Mono? Mini? Micro? Magnificent? Whatever that M is, this is one UNREAL little single-channel amp. 200 Watts (conservatively!) into a 3-inch chassis with balanced input stage to offer Common Mode Rejection! MANUAL See Front Panel Huge See Rear Panel Huge

outlawaudio.com

Not so sure about this combination. If I wanted to go to a processor/amplifier combination (separates) the reasons would need to be compelling. I would need this demo'd.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

MUST be able to support a 7.1 surround sound setup!
I have a budget of $3K for this. Doing research I am tending to settle on the MRX-740 (due Jan 2021) from Anthem.

'The Yamaha RX-V663 has gotten to the point where trying to administer the beast is too difficult much less than the YPAO correction in it that honestly turned off my woofer when I ran it.

I tend to gravitate towards quality. Bells and whistles I won't use is meaningless. I want simple, easy to administer great audio.

That's a big jump in budget from a $600 MSRP AVR to $3,000.

At the $3,000 price point, I bet you will be getting a high quality AVR no matter which brand you buy.

In terms of wanting something simple and less features, which features do you want or not want? You mentioned YPAO.

Do you want Room EQ?

I have a Yamaha RX-A3080 and CX-A5100, but I don't use YPAO at all. I bypass the EQ for the speakers. For the subs, I manually boost the EQ from 30-100Hz. So no YPAO for me.

If you do want Room EQ, then I think Audyssey, Anthem ARC, or Dirac might be better.

For Power output, the Anthem, Arcam, AudioControl units will offer LESS power for your money. They won't be any better in quality either.

Anthem, Arcam, AudioControl are more expensive due to economy of scale - they don't sell as many units, so the prices will be significantly higher.

I don't know if Anthem will offer you better Customer support. I don't have faith in Denon/Marantz CS based on my experience. I do have faith in Yamaha CS based on my experience with the Yamaha RX-A3080.

 

[stalag2005]

That's a big jump in budget from a $600 MSRP AVR to $3,000.

At the $3,000 price point, I bet you will be getting a high quality AVR no matter which brand you buy.

In terms of wanting something simple and less features, which features do you want or not want? You mentioned YPAO.

Do you want Room EQ?

I have a Yamaha RX-A3080 and CX-A5100, but I don't use YPAO at all. I bypass the EQ for the speakers. For the subs, I manually boost the EQ from 30-100Hz. So no YPAO for me.

If you do want Room EQ, then I think Audyssey, Anthem ARC, or Dirac might be better.

For Power output, the Anthem, Arcam, AudioControl units will offer LESS power for your money. They won't be any better in quality either.

Anthem, Arcam, AudioControl are more expensive due to economy of scale - they don't sell as many units, so the prices will be significantly higher.

I don't know if Anthem will offer you better Customer support. I don't have faith in Denon/Marantz CS based on my experience. I do have faith in Yamaha CS based on my experience with the Yamaha RX-A3080.

I despise YPAO. Don't want it at all. Room EQ if it works well should enhance the experience, but has to be easy to implement. I want a true Watt/channel and not wattage per stereo pair. That last means that I want a wattage that fully drives my speakers. On this note when a suggestion for what to consider is made, the minimum specification is at least 5 channels driven at 120W/channel. See the next paragraph for additional detail of what I am looking for.

I also don't want to spend the crazy money of Bryston, McIntosh, or Moon Audio. Their 7.1 solutions are in the $30k range. An example is that Anthem does drive 5 channels on the MRX-740 according to their documentation at 140W/channel with the rear surround channels at 60W/channel. This would be significantly more power than my old RX-V663.

Also my eyesight and back don't allow me to spend more than a couple of minutes trying to peer at tiny screens much less poorly laid out manuals that represent what I have with the RX-V663. I need the implementation to be somewhat intuitive and work well if instructions are followed. The Yamaha is horrible at sensing and switching to decode to 7.1 surround from the initial audio source. Once set up properly, I want the AVR to just play and decode properly to either a 7.1 seven channel stereo if in stereo or to a 7.1 surround if encoded with advanced Dolby or other enhanced audio streams. Essentially drop the CD/Bluray DVD into my player and sit back and enjoy irrespective of what I choose without major fiddling. I have to do that currently with my AVR now and it gets old fast. I do have cable and that can decode different ways also dependent on the original audio transmitted down the wire.

Arcam seems significantly more expensive, don't know much about Cambridge Audio, NAD seems to not be quite as good as even the Denon/Marantz company, and to be had my experience with my old Yamaha is awful. I remember the ease of setting up my old Kenwood stereo receiver and miss that time. To be had though my experience with the Paradigm speakers has been wonderful and my upgrades are still with Paradigm for that reason, and yes I heard all of my speakers demonstrated when I bought them. IMHO they are just as impressive in my possession.

What must be driven are as follows. Note the change as I have decided to upgrade the rear surrounds.

Prestige 45C
Premier 800F (front pair)
MiniMonitor v5 (pair surrounds)
Prestige 25s (Pair rear surround)
Defiance X12 subwoofer.

And finally the $3K can be stretched a bit if needed. Just don't try to double the spend unless the argument can be justified on good technical merit/ease of use.

 

[Movie2099]

I despise YPAO. Don't want it at all. Room EQ if it works well should enhance the experience, but has to be easy to implement. I want a true Watt/channel and not wattage per stereo pair. That last means that I want a wattage that fully drives my speakers. On this note when a suggestion for what to consider is made, the minimum specification is at least 5 channels driven at 120W/channel. See the next paragraph for additional detail of what I am looking for.

I also don't want to spend the crazy money of Bryston, McIntosh, or Moon Audio. Their 7.1 solutions are in the $30k range. An example is that Anthem does drive 5 channels on the MRX-740 according to their documentation at 140W/channel with the rear surround channels at 60W/channel. This would be significantly more power than my old RX-V663.

Also my eyesight and back don't allow me to spend more than a couple of minutes trying to peer at tiny screens much less poorly laid out manuals that represent what I have with the RX-V663. I need the implementation to be somewhat intuitive and work well if instructions are followed. The Yamaha is horrible at sensing and switching to decode to 7.1 surround from the initial audio source. Once set up properly, I want the AVR to just play and decode properly to either a 7.1 seven channel stereo if in stereo or to a 7.1 surround if encoded with advanced Dolby or other enhanced audio streams. Essentially drop the CD/Bluray DVD into my player and sit back and enjoy irrespective of what I choose without major fiddling. I have to do that currently with my AVR now and it gets old fast. I do have cable and that can decode different ways also dependent on the original audio transmitted down the wire.

Arcam seems significantly more expensive, don't know much about Cambridge Audio, NAD seems to not be quite as good as even the Denon/Marantz company, and to be had my experience with my old Yamaha is awful. I remember the ease of setting up my old Kenwood stereo receiver and miss that time. To be had though my experience with the Paradigm speakers has been wonderful and my upgrades are still with Paradigm for that reason, and yes I heard all of my speakers demonstrated when I bought them. IMHO they are just as impressive in my possession.

What must be driven are as follows. Note the change as I have decided to upgrade the rear surrounds.

Prestige 45C
Premier 800F (front pair)
MiniMonitor v5 (pair surrounds)
Prestige 25s (Pair rear surround)
Defiance X12 subwoofer.

And finally the $3K can be stretched a bit if needed. Just don't try to double the spend unless the argument can be justified on good technical merit/ease of use.

The new NAD T778 AVR is actually a nice AVR. Per all the reviews I’ve read. At $3k it gives you everything you’re looking for. Pair it with an Outlaw 7000x amp for $980 and I think you’re set.

 

[stalag2005]

The new NAD T778 AVR is actually a nice AVR. Per all the reviews I’ve read. At $3k it gives you everything you’re looking for. Pair it with an Outlaw 7000x amp for $980 and I think you’re set.

I now understand why you are recommending an AMP for this as it is 85W/channel all channels driven.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

the minimum specification is at least 5 channels driven at 120W/channel.

The $3500 Anthem MRX 1120 can output 70W x 5Ch at 0.1%THD (Spec says 140W x 5Ch).

The $6000 Arcam AVR850 can output 115W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

The old $5500 Denon AVR-5308CI I used to own can output 146W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

And you want a $3,000 AVR that can do 125W x 5Ch?

 

[stalag2005]

The $3500 Anthem MRX 1120 can output 70W x 5Ch at 0.1%THD.

The $6000 Arcam AVR850 can output 115W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

The old $5500 Denon AVR-5308CI I used to own can output 146W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

And you want a $3,000 AVR that can do 125W x 5Ch?

Seems that the same company that owns Paradigm owns Anthem as well. Their new MRX-740 is specified to be 140W/channel for 5 and 60W for the 6th and 7th channels. List is $2700. Although the AVR 850 from Arcam and the old Denon is interesting........

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Seems that the same company that owns Paradigm owns Anthem as well. Their new MRX-740 is specified to be 140W/channel for 5 and 60W for the 6th and 7th channels. List is $2700. Although the AVR 850 from Arcam and the old Denon is interesting........

The $3500 Anthem MRX 1120 can output 70W x 5Ch at 0.1%THD (Spec says 140W x 5Ch).

Spec and “rated” is one thing. How it actually MEASURES on power output is another thing.

The MRX 1120 was also rated 140W x 5Ch. Yet, it measured 70W x 5Ch into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD.

My old Denon AVR-5308, which I sold for $1000 this year, was rated at 150WPC and it measured almost 150W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

Some AVR are overrated and some are not.

 

[stalag2005]

The $3500 Anthem MRX 1120 can output 70W x 5Ch at 0.1%THD (Spec says 140W x 5Ch).

Spec and “rated” is one thing. How it actually MEASURES on power output is another thing.

The MRX 1120 was also rated 140W x 5Ch. Yet, it measured 70W x 5Ch into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD.

My old Denon AVR-5308, which I sold for $1000 this year, was rated at 150WPC and it measured almost 150W x 5Ch at 0.1% THD.

Some AVR are overrated and some are not.

Ok. You obviously don’t understand that I am trying to find out what you do know and not have you criticize without a solid solution to consider. I would prefer an all in one solution. Now also obviously you know more about specifications. Given what I have outlined above do you have a worthy solution? I am overwhelmed with choices and have only scratched the surface. Do you have a combination or sets of combinations worth considering? Easy to use and configure is very important. What can I get that will bring out the best for the speakers I have? These questions you have not answered. I challenge you for answers and links to the recommendations you have. I have not settled yet on a final solution if I am asking this question!

 

[mazersteven]

What can I get that will bring out the best for the speakers I have? These questions you have not answered.

I have

 

[stalag2005]

Current availability is critical and solid support if all goes to hell important

 

[stalag2005]

I have

yes you have. acudeftechguy not so much

 

[Sachb]

For $3k your basically stuck with either Denon/Yamaha or Marantz. I wouldn't consider Onkyo, Pioneer, or any other brand for now, since they apparently have disappeared from the market. Yamaha RX-2080 would be a great upgrade for you at that price.

I don't know why you hate the YPAO so much, but I can guarantee you that it's not bad as people try to portray it.

Moreover, I just hooked up my Denon to the Elac B6.2s again to see, if it really tends to get hot, I had it on a chair this time in an open space, & damn those claims of Denon Overheating seem to be true.
I was watching Netflix yesterday night, but I had only the Left & Right speakers activated. After like 1 hour the Denon got so hot that it was uncomfortable to touch it.

 

[stalag2005]

For $3k your basically stuck with either Denon/Yamaha or Marantz. I wouldn't consider Onkyo, Pioneer, or any other brand for now, since they apparently have disappeared from the market. Yamaha RX-2080 would be a great upgrade for you at that price.

I don't know know why you hate the YPAO so much, but I can guarantee you that it's not bad as people try to portray it.

Moreover, I just hooked up my Denon to the Elac B6.2s again to see, if it really tends to get hot, I had it on a chair this time in an open space, & damn those claims of Denon Overheating seem to be true.
I was watching Netflix yesterday night, but I had only the Left & Right speakers activated. After like 1 hour the Denon got so hot that it was uncomfortable to touch it.

If there is a solution in the $3.5K to $4K that would be good let me know. The $3K is a target price but I will reach if I have need to get quality. There is an absolute limit including tax and shipping but the $3K is my comfort zone.

 

[PENG]

I am not looking for wholesale replacement of these speakers and as such sound great to me already. The only change is to balance the rear surrounds better with the major changes I made with the fronts. The MiniMonitors are my left and right surrounds and are great for my needs. Given this, what AVR would you suggest and please give me a why you choose that particular AVR.

Since your budget is $3K and is stretchable, you are going to have some good choices such as the following:

a) Marantz SR8015 but since the HDMI2.1/8K Panasonic issue bothers you, this choice would depend on whether Marantz could fix it without a hardware change. Apparently they suggested some sort of work around while still working on solutions.

b) Denon AVR-X8500H (the upcoming new eversion), this would depend on whether the new version will have addressed the Panasonic chip issue, it is more likely than the SR8015 obviously because they can still fix it before launch.

c) 2021 Yamaha replacement of the 3080, in case you change your mind on YPAO (is that really a show stopper for you?)

The Yamaha RX-A3090 would have been a great choice but you don't seem to want YPAO.

I am not against Anthem, in fact I like their integrated amps and power amps, just don't believe they, as well as Arcam, NAD can do as good a job on AVRs and AV preamp processors. So I can't recommend theirs until I see improvements reflected, verified by bench measurements. Subjective reviews alone won't cut it for me.

In my opinion, AVRs/AVPs are much more complicated AV products that are better done in the hands of the big dogs who have unlimited engineering resources, relative to that of the smaller companies. If you frequent various forums such as AVF, AVSF, ASR, HTHF etc., you would see a more issues/bugs brought up on those products than Yamaha, D+M, or even Onkyo and Sony. That, combine with their much poorer measured results (that may nor may not result in audibly worse "sound quality" depending on other factors), I would not go for theirs because I would not pay more for less. Again, I don't put any value on subjective claims on forums about their so called/claimed better "sound quality". If an AVR have higher distortions at both low output and rated output levels, they can't sound better than D+M, Yamaha's that have much lower distortions measured on multiple benches. To claim otherwise would simply defy science and logic.

For Room EQ, if you are interested you can visit a couple of threads on Audyssey and the Editor App to see how a few of us were able to achieve +/- 1.5 to 3 dB in the important 20-120 Hz range and with good result in impulse response etc. too. As long as you use the App to fine tune things, I doubt Anthem's ARC can do any better, if not worse.

The AVR-X8500H clearly would cost more, and only if the upcoming updated version satisfy your requirement in terms of the Panasonic chip issue. On the objective side it is still the king on the ASR bench, for subjective review, you can refer to Audioholics.com's (got 100% 5 stars!!), and/or ask @DJ7675 who replaced his Dirac Live equipped NADT758 V3 with the X8500H.

Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2CH IMAX Enhanced AV Receiver Review | Audioholics

Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok. You obviously don’t understand that I am trying to find out what you do know and not have you criticize without a solid solution to consider. I would prefer an all in one solution. Now also obviously you know more about specifications. Given what I have outlined above do you have a worthy solution? I am overwhelmed with choices and have only scratched the surface. Do you have a combination or sets of combinations worth considering? Easy to use and configure is very important. What can I get that will bring out the best for the speakers I have? These questions you have not answered. I challenge you for answers and links to the recommendations you have. I have not settled yet on a final solution if I am asking this question!

I think it’s important not to rush the decision. I was still trying to figure out what you absolutely want and not want or NEED. That’s why I’ve only ASKED questions and not offered any SOLUTIONS.

Understand everything first before we spend $3K+.

For example (and others may have already asked), have you crossed out Yamaha altogether based on your experience with the RX-V663?

It’s also important to understand how much power the speakers really NEED. Do they really need 125W x 5Ch or 50W x 5Ch? Do they need ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN? The ANSWER is NO, the speakers do NOT need ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN! Most people don’t realize this.

ACD (All Channel Driven) is a spec that is relevant ONLY in the testing environment. It’s a GAME people “play”. In real life environment, we don’t see ACD happen. And that’s why most people focus on the 2CH Driven spec. It’s not because the AVR can only do 2CH and will fail at 5CH or 7CH or 11CH.

In this $3K range, any AVR will most likely have enough power for all your speakers, regardless of the specs.

Personally I would get the Yamaha RX-A3080. That’s my SOLUTION.

If you have crossed out Yamaha altogether, then a comparable Denon or Marantz AVR will work. If not, a comparable Sony ES5000-series might work for you (Sony doesn’t do much Room Correction EQ).

Anthem will work also.

There’s not one solution. And everyone has a different answer.

But I will say, ask a million questions before spending $3K+. The quickest answer is NOT always the best solution for you.

 

[stalag2005]

My experience with the current unit the Yamaha RX-V663 is not good and coupled with that the interfacing and how the menuing system works, is with my changes in physical capability has become a thorn in my side. Plus the YPAO correction when I tried it turned off the Subwoofer I do have !!!!!. This is why I am so dead set against Yamaha. But admittedly the tech I have was first put out there in the early 2000's. Given this, it would be really instructive for me to actually hear from those who have tried different AVR's in the past. This is only my second purchase of an AVR and that is including my current AVR purchased in 2008. It got me up and running but when I recommissioned what I had (had major cleanup) I realized I could no longer do what is needed to handle this. Chalk this up to age.

Given the above is why I set a budget target of $3K. Yes there is stretch in this, but I don't have infinite money. If you do find a young female sugar baby for me that might change.......but then there is reality! I prefer quality and in audio equipment reliability/simplicity/bug free are very high on the tree of importance. Looks just don't cut the mustard with me. And I don't have a sig other that I have to worry about making happy or for that matter can help by being able to do physically the things I no longer can.

 

[Teetertotter?]

How good are your old age ears??? In that case, how good a speakers do you need that would make a significant difference? My 2015 model Denon, bought in 2016, has worked perfectly with updates from Denon. I have experienced good Denon customer support via e-mail too.
I have mixed matched speakers with no issue to my ears.........Yes, I can afford, so called, "Better Speakers" I watch a lot of movies in a small room.
If having the better equipment makes you feel good......go for it!